Should I upgrade my ADSL router?

Hi,

I currently have a Linksys WAG354G router. I've read about the Billion BiPAC 7800N router which seems to get excellent reviews, offers the wireless n spec which my Google Nexus can benefit from and also s/n tweaking.

However, my line speed currently max's at ~2.5Mbps on the web based speed tests and my Linksys reports 3232 Kbps as the downstream rate and 448kbps as the upstream. I am not aware of suffering any dropouts on this connection.

I have one (wired) computer on the router, which is used intensively (but mainly only web browsing, emails and some computer remote support using TeamViewer). There is a maximum of 5 other wireless devices (internet radio, laptops, tablets) on the network at any one time and only my daughter is a major youtube/iplayer consumer.

In other words, I'm on quite a slow connection (due to distance from exchange etc.).

So, my question is, given that the current router is a few years old, will a replacement such as the one I've quoted above get me a noticeable improvement? Or will it just be like driving a Ferrari through a 30mph speed limit road?

Advice greatly welcomed and appreciated!

Thanks!

Pete

The wireless speed improvement would only benefit you if you had a local media server.

On the 3232 Kbps and improving it, then the full connection speed, attenuation and noise margin are useful as then we can see if line is on the limit now, or scope for another meg of speed.

Thank you for responding so quickly! This is what my Linksys currently reports:

DSL Modulation Mode: GDMT
DSL Path Mode: INTERLEAVED
Downstream Rate: 3232 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 448 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 1 db
Upstream Margin: 23 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 53
Upstream Line Attenuation: 28
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

These stats seem pretty similar whenever I've checked them. Are they the items you refer to?

Many thanks!

Pete

I didn't have the WAG354G but I did switch from a modified DG834GT to a 7800n.

In a word; it was an excellent move, way worth the £110 we spent on it.

It is very stable (It hasn't resynced once by itself apart from when manually resynced or a powercut has happened - touch wood),

Runs passively - I had to fit a fan to my old DG834GT to stop it freezing up and performing poorly; I went through 2 DG834GTs,

Pings are much better and stable with the 7800n,

Wireless is far superior to Wireless G due to having 3 antennae on the 7800n.

The best advantage for most scenarios: The 7800n has an in-built 4-port Gigabit switch, so if you don't already have a gigabit network (We did) you will benefit in the future if doing large transfers from computer to computer.

The only fault I can see with my 7800n is after you have tweaked the SNR and the modem is restarted for some reason, the slider returns to 0 so unless you have recorded where it was before, you have to use some trial and error to find a good SNR value.

You will probably find you can squeeze more out of your line with the 7800n, but as MrSaffron has asked, we might be able to give you an idea if you post your line stats .

Edit: You already have an extremely low margin so I'm guessing your lines' SNR varies dramatically during the day, as the DSLAM will try and aim for your set Target's SNR which can be 3, 6, 9 or 12 when resyncing. I'm not sure whether the 7800n will benefit your line as far as speed is concerned.

As for the Ferrari through a 30mph speed limit; It's like that for any router not running at maximum sync but if the road is low quality, the quality of the tires and suspension (How the router handles the line) can really help on a bad road to keep you going as fast as you can go. I no longer force my 7800n to sync at an extremely low margin but I still force it to go faster than it should; If it's stable on this line, it shouldn't have a problem on slower lines.

Here is my 7800n's stats:

Upstream 1215
Downstream 22814
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.0
SNR Margin(Downstream) 1.8
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 9.6
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 16.0

Hope this helps

Edited by chris6273 (Mon 11-Feb-13 13:16:00)

Hi,

Thanks for your helpful reply. From memory, the downstream margin is always 1db, as quoted in my post above.

As you can guess, I'm not an expert at interpreting these statistics but from a few minutes googling it seems wrong that it should be 'stuck' at 1db at all times.

So I'm still somewhat confused on my original question - whether it's worthwhile upgrading to a more modern router like the 7800N.

Any further opinions? (Or information I can provide from my router stats?)

Many thanks!

Pete

Normal speed range at 53dB attenuation is 2800Kbps to 3930Kbps based on your attenuation.

The 1 dB noise margin is suspect, as the lowest target should be 6dB (guessing it is a BT Wholesale IPStream Max - up to 8Meg service).

I've used a couple of linksys ADSL modem devices and never found them much good, the 7800 should be more reliable in this respect, but wary of recommending just in case yours is the one line where the current modem is actually the best option.

You might be able to squeeze another 1Mbps on downstream sync, using the current router, if you haven't already fitted a filtered faceplate on the NTE5 master socket and also removed the bell wire (if relevant.)

There is some debate as to whether a filtered faceplate is better than dangle filters but personally I like to run a filtered voice extension, if required, from the back of the filtered faceplate and not use dangle filters in a home wiring setup.

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 11-Feb-13 13:58:42)

In reply to a post by peterboulton:

So I'm still somewhat confused on my original question - whether it's worthwhile upgrading to a more modern router like the 7800N.

I'd say it definitely is unless you are likely to get FTTC soon and you are considering chasing that up (Even though the 7800N is compatible with FTTC through the eWAN port).

One thing which you could try is double filtering your voice side of the microfilter.

So basically having your first microfilter with your router plugged into and then having another filter plugged into the voice side of that and plugging your phone into that.

However do not plug your modem into the second filter (You shouldn't need to unplug it at all if you do it right).

It was suggested to me as I'm on ADSL2+, but it may make a difference on ADSL.

But yes, I would recommend the 7800n in your scenario.

Out of interest does your connection drop at all/often?

I already have the faceplate with the built-in filter but have tried the suggestion of plugging a second filter into the faceplate and connecting the phone to it, while leaving the adsl line in the faceplate.

I'm not sure how I would know about dropouts. The Windows system tray network icon displays a lost internet only about once every 2-3 months, which I put down to ISP problems (Demon). Other than that, very occasionally web pages get 'stuck' and I press refresh which fixes it. I've put this down to DNS server issues rather than dropped connection - but it only happens relatively occasionally anyway.

After rebooting the router (having implemented the second filter suggestion) I now get:

DSL Status: UP
DSL Modulation Mode: GDMT
DSL Path Mode: INTERLEAVED
Downstream Rate: 3328 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 448 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 6 db
Upstream Margin: 21 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 52
Upstream Line Attenuation: 28
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

Not sure what the 1db downstream margin was before - it seemed wrong based on all your previous comments. Maybe a router bug? Anyway, 6db seems the 'expected' figure.

Another thing I noticed, having diverted off to pages like http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm to 'get educated' is why my connection appears to heavily favour upstream over downstream. The upstream margin is much higher and the upstream line attenuation is much lower. On most of the quoted stats or screenshots I've seen it's the other way round (which makes sense - you would optimise the downstream in the majority of cases).

So, now that the 1db possible red herring is eliminated, do the stats posted in this post suggest replacing my WAG354G with 7800N is a good idea?

(Thanks for all the responses so far - they are very helpful and greatly appreciated!)

Pete

Edited by deleted (Mon 11-Feb-13 15:50:20)

My first router was a WAG354GS. When the wireless failed I replaced it with s Speedtouch 585. Straight out of the box that sync'ed ~500kbps faster. Interestingly the attenuation shown by the Speedtough was 3dB lower than that dsipalyed by the Linksys. (Which would account for the speed increase).

I wouldn't buy a 7800n right now, as 2 replacement 78** series routers are due from Billion (7800DXL and 7800VDOX) in the next 2 weeks. This will inevitably drive down prices of the 7800N and there may be some bargains to be had if you don't want to buy the latest version of the hardware

In reply to a post by Spudgun:

I wouldn't buy a 7800n right now, as 2 replacement 78** series routers are due from Billion (7800DXL and 7800VDOX) in the next 2 weeks. This will inevitably drive down prices of the 7800N and there may be some bargains to be had if you don't want to buy the latest version of the hardware

Thanks for this! Brilliant info!

All the best,

Pete

Down 52 down and 28 up, attenuation is close to half so is fine.

The high SNR margin for upstream is normal for a service running with a speed cap of 448 Kbps which is normal for IPStream Max.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Down 52 down and 28 up, attenuation is close to half so is fine.

The high SNR margin for upstream is normal for a service running with a speed cap of 448 Kbps which is normal for IPStream Max.

Great, thanks! I'm still slightly fuzzy on whether the router upgrade is a worthwhile idea though! Sorry for being dense. I think the consensus so far is "probably"?

Pete

At the £100 price of the 7800N I would hold back for now.
If down to the £40 to £50 area then its a reasonable spend, and a spare router is useful.

If the connection holds a steady 6dB noise margin, then tweaks could gain you 500Kbps, plus perhaps a little more if the exchange hardware likes the 7800N

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

At the £100 price of the 7800N I would hold back for now.
If down to the £40 to £50 area then its a reasonable spend, and a spare router is useful.

If the connection holds a steady 6dB noise margin, then tweaks could gain you 500Kbps, plus perhaps a little more if the exchange hardware likes the 7800N

Thanks for that Andrew - much appreciated. I guess I will save the money! But keep a lookout for a decent price reduction on the 7800N.

Cheers,

Pete

They are a little "old" but if you are willing to chance a few pounds, try to get an unused 2wire2700. They tend to hold sync on long lines and give excellent performance even when noise pushes the SNR down.

Ebay

In reply to a post by MHC:

They are a little "old" but if you are willing to chance a few pounds, try to get an unused 2wire2700. They tend to hold sync on long lines and give excellent performance even when noise pushes the SNR down.

Ebay

Thanks! However I'm thinking that to replace my working Linksys WAG354G I would need to get wireless n. My Google Nexus 7 supports it and wireless g has limited coverage in my house (given the unavoidable location of the router). The startpoint of this thread was tying wireless n into possible benefits of a 'faster' router.

No problem.

I am one who does not like the "one box solution". In a couple of places I have installed a 2700 to hold the line and get the best performance, then connected a second router with wireless N and Gigabit Ethernet for the local network.

The day someone produces a "one box solution" that has excellent long line and low SNR performance, Wireless N with good omni-directional coverage, operating in both 2.4 and 5 GHz bands, Gigabit Ethernet and internal switching that does not compromise performance, content screening, usage measurement &c; then I might change my mind!

N wireless does not increase power, the use of multiple antenna can give better signal reception.

Generally while I find N faster at the fringes of reception it usually fails at around the same point as old fashioned G networks in real house scenarios.

Thus the only way to get real wireless coverage is wireless from main router, and then a secondary access point located elsewhere.

In reply to a post by MHC:

They are a little "old" but if you are willing to chance a few pounds, try to get an unused 2wire2700. They tend to hold sync on long lines and give excellent performance even when noise pushes the SNR down.

Ebay

Just out of interest: will that BT 2700HGV 54 Mbps 4-Port 10/100 Wireless G Router (2Wire 2700HGV) work on a G.992.5 annex A (ADSL2+) connection? And could one force a G.992.1 annex A (ADSL1) connection with it for improved speed and stability if on a long line where loop loss is high, e.g. a ~55dB downstream attenuation?

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 12-Feb-13 16:17:53)

They will work on an ADSL2+ connection but not sure about forcing it down to an alternate version - I moved to VDSL 2 years back and cannot remember if there is an option as options disappear when it is used as a WAP.

Cheers - I know a few folks on long ADSL2+ lines who may benefit from using a 2Wire even if they can not force ADSL1 or ADSL2

Get one from ebay and try it on their lines ... On most, if not all lines that I have used them on, there has been an improvement.

Once it holds a signal it will try damn hard to keep it. I had one that stayed up for well over 6 months and in that time the SNR dropped to 0 regularly and even went negative for short periods but it continued to hold sync.

Will do

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Just out of interest: will that BT 2700HGV 54 Mbps 4-Port 10/100 Wireless G Router (2Wire 2700HGV) work on a G.992.5 annex A (ADSL2+) connection? And could one force a G.992.1 annex A (ADSL1) connection with it for improved speed and stability if on a long line where loop loss is high, e.g. a ~55dB downstream attenuation?

It will work with ADSL2+.

If a modem doesn't support ADSL2+ the MSAN will backtrack and attempt to use ADSL2, and then ADSL1 until any one of the modulations are supported.

Also if the line is long enough and meets the trigger requirements, the DLM should automatically put you onto G.DMT after a certain amount of time. You could alternatively ask your ISP whether they can put an order through for standard ADSL.

Would that apply to full LLU also? One of my friends is on TalkTalk LLU and I don't think we would want to contact phone support or even the forum about a change in modulation

The backwards compatible bit should be, but not sure about the DLM. If memory serves correct, BT Wholesale use their own custom DLM which is different from LLU Providers who do not use BT Wholesales' MSANs.