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Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 07:17:20
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Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[link to this post]
 
Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, I really wasn't sure where to post.

I need help understanding a problem we have.

Broadband will randomly just slow to nothing, no errors, just no internet for everyone. BT sent the latest router (hub 6) and then OpenReach investigated and said a REIN issue.

I turned everything off around the house and internet was back to 100%.

Turned things on slowly and internet died, eventually, after I switched on an iPad. Tested thoroughly and turning it off and on a dozen times exactly matched the internet going from 0% to 100%.

Left iPad off and started turning on other devices. All good until I came to a laptop which again internet dropped to 0% when it connected to the wifi network (not when turned on, when connected). Tested on/off again and yes, it was also causing an issue. Went back to the iPad, turned it on but then toggled the wifi to see and yes, it's the wifi not the device being on that affects the broadband.

Next, tried connecting the laptop to the router by a cable and again, while connected the speed is zero, disconnected it's fine. So turned on right next to the router is fine as long as it's not connected?

We have an AirPort Extreme too so I tried connecting that to the router and wirelessly connecting the the AirPort instead but that too dropped the speed to zero.

So I don't really understand what is going on. If it's REIN then surely what I've described above would not be happening. Like, what part of the laptop is causing a problem if it occurs both wirelessly and wired but not at all when not connected but right next to the router. Also what are the chances of two devices suddenly causing a problem?

Many thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Mon 27-May-19 09:00:02
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
Can you isolate the two WiFi bands - 2.4 and 5Ghz. Then try the same tests with just 2.4GHz working or just 5Ghz working and see if is related to just one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 09:25:42
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Hi, thanks for responding.

I did as requested:

For each band the exact same thing happened. When the iPad was connected speed tests show zero up/down (testing from a different device). disconnect the iPad and back to normal. Hub show no issues at all.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 27-May-19 10:22:50
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
Double check that devices do not have their own personal hot spots enabled

Also look at what traffic each device is sending and receiving?

If battery powered devices such as an iPad are breaking the connection the chances of this being a REIN issue is very small.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 10:51:09
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your response:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Double check that devices do not have their own personal hot spots enabled


Just checked everything, no hotspots.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Also look at what traffic each device is sending and receiving?


I reset the data monitoring on the laptop and then connected it. Tried to browse the web at an incredibly slow speed for 10 minutes. Data usage was 10mb on Chrome <1mb on a few other system things.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If battery powered devices such as an iPad are breaking the connection the chances of this being a REIN issue is very small.


Any idea what it could be then as OpenReach's line tests (done from where it goes from pole into the ground if that makes a difference) states REIN problems?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 27-May-19 10:56:57
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
If it is REIN caused by an external effect then should show up with a single battery device connected via Ethernet (and all Wi-Fi turned off and other electrical in the home).

If that test is clear, then as you switch stuff back on you get problems then the issue is something you own pumping out noise

NOTE: if you leave iPad charges plugged in they might still be a source of problems, so unplug/switch off not just disconnected from device.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 27-May-19 11:00:20
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
I would suggest that this isnít REIN.

Have experienced something similar on a couple of occasions. Both times it was software on one or two bits of kit that was saturating the upload of the circuit.

Not much help in identifying the exact culprit, but hopefully a pointer in the right direction.

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 27-May-19 11:52:49
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Have experienced something similar on a couple of occasions. Both times it was software on one or two bits of kit that was saturating the upload of the circuit.
That was my thinking - something is saturating the link. Could be a Windows or Mac machine that has been switched off for a while catching up, or an iPhone/iPad or Android device syncing lots of photos down.

What is the speed of the connection? up and down.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync history highest: 64/9 (Sep/17), 54/6 (Jan/19), 51/6 (Mar/19)
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 27-May-19 12:00:56
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
Iíd ignore the Openreach test results. Itís not a REIN issue.

Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 14:16:06
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thank you so much for helping me today.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If it is REIN caused by an external effect then should show up with a single battery device connected via Ethernet (and all Wi-Fi turned off and other electrical in the home).


Ok, So I took the laptop and plugged it into the router (only device connected) and as before connection dropped to 0. I then turned off wifi on the router and ran a speediest on the laptop, it worked perfectly.

So what could this mean? and if it's the BT router's wifi that is the problem why did we also see it when we turned off the wifi on the BT Hub and connected wirelessly through the AirPort Extreme?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
NOTE: if you leave iPad charges plugged in they might still be a source of problems, so unplug/switch off not just disconnected from device.


We literally unplugged anything we couldn't turn off at the fuse box and started from there so not a charger sadly. I'd like it to be something easily replaceable though smile
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 14:19:19
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Have experienced something similar on a couple of occasions. Both times it was software on one or two bits of kit that was saturating the upload of the circuit.
That was my thinking - something is saturating the link. Could be a Windows or Mac machine that has been switched off for a while catching up, or an iPhone/iPad or Android device syncing lots of photos down.

What is the speed of the connection? up and down.


The connection is terrible, we are towards the end of the line. so we get 10mbps down and 0.8mbps up.

But if it were that simple surely the other devices would get some share of the pie still? when certain devices are connected, in this case my iPad and my son's laptop, everything else just stops working. Speed tests either read virtually 0 or just won't run. Plus OpenReach could see a ton of errors on their machine they plugged into the line.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 27-May-19 14:39:56
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
In broad terms, every downstream packet requires a very small ACKnowledgment upstream packet. If a lot of photos (for example) are being uploaded and flooding your 0.8Mbps the ACK packets can get dropped or severely delayed, so stopping the download running. Including speed tests.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up. BQM
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Edited by RobertoS (Mon 27-May-19 14:40:48)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 27-May-19 14:40:31
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
With such a low upload while the theory is that others will get a slice of the pie, the device making the most requests will dominate i.e. routers do NOT do a 10 devices so divide bandwidth equally 10 ways, but simply give it to the one who makes the most requests

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 27-May-19 14:47:04
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
If issue is happening when wireless is turned on via either the BT hub or Apple router then suggests you have a wireless device attempting to do lots of traffic

Applications such as cloud upload for photo backup, or a torrenting app or maybe even some malware can easily saturate the upload when its as slow as yours and at that point your latency shoots up.

Another possibility is that there is something like a Chromecast connecting over Wi-Fi and is saturating the router - masses of DNS requests at one time from the Chromecast would flood the router and essentially break the connection.

So next step is device connected via Ethernet with a ping running but ensure WiFi on all your devices is off, turn on the wifi on the router and if no devices have wifi turned on then this should have no effect at all. If no devices connected and things die - it may be you've shared a wireless key with someone and that device next door is connecting. Solution for this last one is to change your wireless security key to a new one.

If all is well with wireless on but no devices with WiFi turned on, then turn on the WiFi one by one with a good 15 minute gap between each device, so that you can identify which device is having problems.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 15:27:35
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thank you, I'll keep investigating following your advice here and see if what I can find.
Standard User craski
(committed) Mon 27-May-19 17:30:14
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If issue is happening when wireless is turned on via either the BT hub or Apple router then suggests you have a wireless device attempting to do lots of traffic

I've had a badly configured SONOS in a neighbours house slowly bring his network to a halt. It had been mistakenly configured on both wired and wireless. When first switched on, the network ran fine and then after a while it would completely stop all devices on the network.

OP, Do you have a SONOS?

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Edited by craski (Mon 27-May-19 19:18:52)

Standard User bobble_bob
(knowledge is power) Mon 27-May-19 19:35:19
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
REIN doesnt usually cause a sudden lack of speed like the OP described. Thats from personal experience anyway. It will slow things down for sure, but not kill the connection

More likely as others have said, something to be saturating the upload.
Standard User monkeyman86
(newbie) Mon 27-May-19 21:20:07
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: bobble_bob] [link to this post]
 
Following on from MrSaffrons post you can check downstream/upstream data usage per device in the Hub 6 connected devices menu to see which devices have been using the most data. I would take a guess at an upload saturation issue too.
Following on from Craskis post I've also seen issues with devices (never worked out if it was the Sonos or the Sky TV box) incorrectly configured although they would randomly prevent all traffic, not just reduce it to a trickle.
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Wed 29-May-19 11:52:09
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: craski] [link to this post]
 
No SONOS but thank you for the suggestion, Mr Saffron was correct though.
Standard User AnthonyFlwr
(committed) Wed 29-May-19 11:54:35
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
You were correct.

So it looks like BT fixed something originally as I hadn't noticed none of the iOS devices had backed themselves up in weeks (family of 5 so quite a few devices). Once the connection was fixed they all just seemed to go for it.

Ended up taking the lot to my father's house as he doesn't live in the middle of nowhere and actually has decent connection. Left them there for the day to catch up and now everything is happy.

Thank you so much for your assistance with this!
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 29-May-19 11:55:35
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding. *DELETED*


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by RobertoS
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 29-May-19 18:53:25
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Re: Possible REIN issue, help needed understanding.


[re: AnthonyFlwr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AnthonyFlwr:
Once the connection was fixed they all just seemed to go for it.

I wondered if you had lots of iOS devices. They will flood WiFi as soon as it is available if they think they are out of date on automatic back ups.

I found this out when using a hotspot device when roaming in the US, the iOS automatic backup thinks all WiFi is unmetered and used up all the allowance in one evening. Oops!

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync history highest: 64/9 (Sep/17), 54/6 (Jan/19), 51/6 (Mar/19)
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
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