Technical Discussion
  >> DSL Hardware Discussion


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User crule
(learned) Thu 27-Jun-19 08:25:11
Print Post

what new router?


[link to this post]
 
Hi
I have used a BiPAC 7800DXL router to connect via adsl2 to a very long copper line.It has worked very well for the last 5 years. The time has come to retire it. Can anyone recommend a replacement router that uses the Broadcom chip set.
I am on a OR line with BT as my ISP the BT supplied home hub limps along at less than 1Mbit/s but the Bipac raises this to 3.5Mbit/s.
So you can see why I need to be careful in selection of the new router.
Any suggestions
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 27-Jun-19 09:06:37
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: crule] [link to this post]
 
What makes you believe it is time to retire the Billion? Have your problems got worse since a couple of years ago?

It might be an idea to post the latest version of your stats, as in your March 17 post. XRaySpex also made an important reply about those, which we all ignored.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User crule
(learned) Thu 27-Jun-19 10:43:13
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Many thanks for the reply.
I think I am probably over cautious but having had the Billion in constant use for over 5 years now I would like to have a backup waiting in case it quits at the most inconvenient time. So much of what I do can only be done on line.
I fact OR switched my line to ADSL_2plus at the end of last year and both my DL and Ul speed doubled over night.
The slow speed is a downside of living in an isolated farm down a 5km tatty Cu/Al line which only comes here. However there are many other upsides and we are only 60km from London


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User baby_frogmella
(knowledge is power) Thu 27-Jun-19 11:14:34
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: crule] [link to this post]
 
TBH you're not going to find a much better router than the Billion 7800DXL for a long adsl2 line. Don't you have your isp's router to use as a backup if the Billion was to suddenly die? If not, then perhaps buy another 7800DXL or even the legendary 7800N to keep as a spare. They can be bought cheaply on ebay. Buying a far newer Billion such as the VR600 or VR900 would almost be a waste of money considering the very little gain you would get. If it ain't broke... smile

FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 Mbps
Linksys EA9500v2
Standard User jabuzzard
(member) Thu 27-Jun-19 11:53:45
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
What makes you believe it is time to retire the Billion?


That there has not been a firmware update since June 2015, which makes it an insecure hunk of junk would be a very good starting point for wanting to replace it. However anything from your standard consumer manufacturers aka. the likes of Netgear, Billion, etc. will be just the same in terms of being left to rot with few if any firmware updates after it has been released.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(knowledge is power) Thu 27-Jun-19 12:30:42
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
That there has not been a firmware update since June 2015, which makes it an insecure hunk of junk would be a very good starting point for wanting to replace it. However anything from your standard consumer manufacturers aka. the likes of Netgear, Billion, etc. will be just the same in terms of being left to rot with few if any firmware updates after it has been released.


It would be utterly bonkers for the OP to spend £100s on enterprise grade kit for a 3.5 Mb/s adsl line in a domestic environment. If consumer grade kit was that bad, all of us would be using £800 Juniper routers. Sure, home routers can be hacked but as long as you take the necessary steps such as using a strong WPA2 wifi password then the risk is greatly minimized. A bit like crossing the road...you can easily get run over if you don't look yet millions do this everyday without getting run over.

FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 Mbps
Linksys EA9500v2
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 27-Jun-19 13:55:35
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
And a decent admin password, allied to a change of admin username if possible. (I've seen quite a few where the username can't be changed, which is idiotic).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User jabuzzard
(member) Thu 27-Jun-19 19:59:48
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
There is plenty of routers that you can buy that don't cost hundreds of pounds that get regular firmware updates. No amount of strong password is going to help when there is a vulnerability in the underlying OS and there is no patch from the vendor. Given that the OP's router has not had a security update in four years it is almost certainly running with a known remotely compromisable vulnerability.

So I would suggest Mikrotik, Ubiquiti, Draytek etc. as viable alternatives that get regular security updates for the long run. The likes of Billion, Asus, Netgear, TP Link etc. best to avoid with a barge pole.

The alternative is get a cheap router that runs dd-wrt or similar. Personally I found this a right hassle as quickly over time you find the latest version won't install on your hardware, generally due to insufficient storage. I decided my time was worth the money investing in Ubiquiti gear which did not cost me hundreds of pounds. I spent £75 on an EdgeRouterX-SFP and £100 on a UniFi AC-LR access point, and recycled my Huawei HG612 modem. Which while lacking in security updates is only accessible from the router, and is thus incredibly difficult to compromise remotely. I would replace it with something new but I am waiting on the G.fast pod on my cabinet being enabled. I think I should be able to get a significant uplift in speed being ~200m from the cabinet and getting a full 80/20 speed. No point in buying a new VDSL modem if I am going to get a G.fast connection. This is taking longer than anticipated, we are approaching 10 months now since the pod was added to the PCP...

I have subsequently added an external access point to get coverage in the garden. that cost another £85 and a bunch for some SWA Cat6a cable to lay to the shed, but that is way beyond a "normal" consumer router anyway,

There is no requirement whatsoever to buy Cisco, Juniper etc. and suggesting that there is disingenuous to put it politely.
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Thu 27-Jun-19 20:15:10
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
For the less technically adept like myself (running a first generation Billion 8800NL) what are the risks people like me face and what is the likelihood of it happening to an ordinary domestic user?
Standard User gary333
(regular) Thu 27-Jun-19 21:05:38
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
For the less technically adept like myself (running a first generation Billion 8800NL) what are the risks people like me face and what is the likelihood of it happening to an ordinary domestic user?


Me too, as it sounds like 99% of the UK's internet population are at risk if all of those vendors are out. The general population use the device they got in the post when they signed up to their provider, often for donkeys years. I would have expected mass hysteria by now if all the old equipment still in circulation with old firmware is a security risk.
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Jun-19 21:18:25
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
Some people are just paranoid.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Fri 28-Jun-19 22:01:25
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
Some people are just paranoid.


Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not out to get you.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 30-Jun-19 15:11:34
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:
It would be utterly bonkers for the OP to spend £100s on enterprise grade kit for a 3.5 Mb/s adsl line in a domestic environment. If consumer grade kit was that bad, all of us would be using £800 Juniper routers. Sure, home routers can be hacked but as long as you take the necessary steps such as using a strong WPA2 wifi password then the risk is greatly minimized. A bit like crossing the road...you can easily get run over if you don't look yet millions do this everyday without getting run over.


I wish these forums had a like option, i would certainly like this comment.

Adrian

Desktop machine Ryzen powered with windows 10 , reluctantly.

Plusnet FTTC
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Sun 30-Jun-19 15:21:22
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
And I would like to like zyborg47's comment!
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 30-Jun-19 15:30:25
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
For the less technically adept like myself (running a first generation Billion 8800NL) what are the risks people like me face and what is the likelihood of it happening to an ordinary domestic user?


Virtully Zero,

i know a fair amount of people using older routers that have not been updated for a few years. they all seem fine. one is even using one of my old ADSL routers and the company went out of business years ago.

Adrian

Desktop machine Ryzen powered with windows 10 , reluctantly.

Plusnet FTTC
Standard User bobble_bob
(knowledge is power) Wed 03-Jul-19 16:32:16
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Depends on where you live too i would think. Most vulnerabilities require a person being within range of the router to exploit. So if you live in the middle of nowhere, or a quiet street with only a handful of houses having the range to connect to your router, you will more than likely be ok. Yes someone could drive up to your house and exploit your router that way, but what are the odds?

More higher if you live in say central London but even then id say very small
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 03-Jul-19 23:30:08
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: bobble_bob] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bobble_bob:
Depends on where you live too i would think. Most vulnerabilities require a person being within range of the router to exploit. So if you live in the middle of nowhere, or a quiet street with only a handful of houses having the range to connect to your router, you will more than likely be ok. Yes someone could drive up to your house and exploit your router that way, but what are the odds?
I think you are confusing people leeching the router's wifi service with the security problem of hacking into the user's LAN and computers etc. through the net.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User bobble_bob
(knowledge is power) Thu 04-Jul-19 06:33:35
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I get that some vulnerabilities can be from hacking a users LAN, but alot of vulnerabilities are also Man in the Middle attacks which require you to be in range of the router.

Also the methods used by hackers seems to be changing these days. They arent so bothered about performing sophisticated hacks on home users, they seem to be concentrating on attacking big businesses and local government departments where they can make much bigger money. As seen in the recent USA ransomware attacks.

The best form of security is still the user being aware and not clicking dodgy links and opening unknown attachments.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 04-Jul-19 10:21:18
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: bobble_bob] [link to this post]
 
The sub-topic is about the security aspects of old routers with non-updated firmwares/firewalls which as a result can be picked up by non-targeted scattergun IP Address attacks.

Ransom attacks for instance are far from being confined to professional criminals aiming at major targets, and can come not just from links in dodgy emails but from fairly simply routines probing for known vulnerabilities in popular routers.

You are moving further and further from what was being discussed.

Bear in mind also that the HG612, the equivalent ECI ďmodemĒ and the Vigor 130 are all in fact modem/routers in bridge mode.

I donít think they present a major security risk, but I also believe that anyone in this thread worrying about the security of those and other now unsupported kit have a valid concern, and that any attack is likely to come over the net rather than from a local baddie. All I was saying was that your opinion that they are most likely to come from someone in close proximity picking up the userís routerís wifi connection traffic was way off beam.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 04-Jul-19 11:30:52
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Surely everyone just does a port scan of their router from another connection to see what ports and possible interfaces it has exposed on the WAN side.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 04-Jul-19 19:12:51
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yep. Doesn't everyone know nmap?

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync history highest: 64/9 (Sep/17), 54/6 (Jan/19), 51/6 (Mar/19)
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Thu 04-Jul-19 20:01:06
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I suspect that there is not a single person in our village would know what doing a port scan on their router was and their knowledge of nmap would perhaps be slightly less than their knowledge of the Third Law of Thermodynamics.

While the depth of knowledge on this forum (and the number of people who are willing to give up their time to share that knowledge) is something we should all be grateful for, no-one has yet given any answer (hopefully in Janet and John language so that the less technically adept can understand the risks they are facing) to the questions I posed a week ago. What are the risks that people like me face and what is the likelihood of something untoward happening to an ordinary domestic user from using a bog-standard vintage ISP-supplied modem/router?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 04-Jul-19 20:41:14
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
The risks are many and varied but for consumer ignoring things they do on their PC

1. Risk - router is listening for a connection from Internet that exposes the admin interface, potentially allowing an anonymous to upload hacked firmware to do anything on to the router

2. Access via Wi-FI by using an easily guessed or predictable key (some default wireless keys can be quickly guessed) and then once on the LAN the router can be compromised and/or probes made to computers.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 04-Jul-19 22:31:38
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
What are the risks that people like me face and what is the likelihood of something untoward happening to an ordinary domestic user from using a bog-standard vintage ISP-supplied modem/router?


Pretty low actually.
1 - As Andrew also says, change the WiFi password and network name.
2 - Change the admin password to the router (so its not the ISP name etc).

The benefits of using the ISP supplied router include:
1 - ISP updates it centrally, often overnight (BT, Sky, and others do this)
2 - If there is an issue found, the ISP is in a position to manage the risk, they canít do this with third party equipment

The downside is the ISP supplied routers are often very simplistic, and in some cases even have very poor WiFi range compared to alternatives.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync history highest: 64/9 (Sep/17), 54/6 (Jan/19), 51/6 (Mar/19)
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Fri 05-Jul-19 00:48:15
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
MrS and jchamier

Thanks both for taking the time to explain things for me (and I suspect many others).
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Fri 05-Jul-19 13:18:07
Print Post

Re: what new router?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
" What are the risks that people like me face and what is the likelihood of something untoward happening to an ordinary domestic user from using a bog-standard vintage ISP-supplied modem/router?"

Don't stick your finger in to the open case of the modem/router and you should be ok.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to