FTTC (Infinity say no, Wholesale say yes :S)

BT Infinity say:
BT Infinity is not currently due to be rolled out in your area.Register and we will keep you up to date about the BT Infinity rollout.

BT Wholesale:
Exchange BOTHWELL

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.


Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 5Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 3.5Mbps and 7.5Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports a fibre technology with an estimated WBC FTTC Broadband where consumers have received downstream line speed of 14.3Mbps and upstream line speed of 4.1Mbps.

Sam Knows:
FTTC status: Available in some areas

I'm with ADSL24 and they are saying the same as the wholesale checker so are none the wiser as to why one thing says I can and the other says I can't get it.
Is there any way of getting a definite answer?

Are you using the actual number in the BTW checker?

Post code and address checkers are not reliable - it says so.

Sorry, should've stated that yes, using the exact number. Have tried using the main house phone number too and that says the same. The 5mb estimate is wrong however.

Infinity is still sticking to a 15Meg minimum from checker before placing order, Wholesale and Openreach are more relaxed about this figure.

Am I right in reading that as I can't order direct through BT due to their estimate having me below the threshold but through a reseller I can?

Any FTTC seller, (it isn't resold Infinity - that's just BT Broadband's name for their FTTC service).

ADSL24 are the ones to ask if they are your ISP. They have accepted under 15Mbps estimates before. Unless you want to leave them of course, there are others.

Be aware that if the actual connection speed is below 15Mbps on any ISP the installation is undone by Openreach.

I'm sure you are correct. But why on earth would Openreach want to undo the installation? More BT madness?

In reply to a post by cuthbei:

I'm sure you are correct. But why on earth would Openreach want to undo the installation? More BT madness?

Exactly my thoughts, but several engineers on here have confirmed those are their instructions. All the work done, and if it sync's at 13Mbps undo it all?

Though there is a 5Mbps product on the way I believe.

I think is is possible for FTTC to be available in an area from Openreach but not yet on offer by BT Retail. This may only be a timing issue if the exchange has only just been made available to service providers, but you could, theoretically at least, have a situation where the Openreach and Wholesale services were available but INfinity was not being offered for sale.

I suspect you're right thought that the issue in this case is down to estimated line speeds.

In reply to a post by New_Londoner:

I think is is possible for FTTC to be available in an area from Openreach but not yet on offer by BT Retail. This may only be a timing issue if the exchange has only just been made available to service providers, but you could, theoretically at least, have a situation where the Openreach and Wholesale services were available but INfinity was not being offered for sale.

Several people have had OP FTTC (via BTW) installed by resellers other than BT Broadband before Infinity was available, in just the way you theorise. The estimable Bill Ford being a case in point.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The estimable Bill Ford

I've been called a lot of things on this bbs, but not that as far as I can remember .

But yes... my number was scheduled for end September 2010, a speculative check on my ISP's availability checker in mid-August showed it available, an immediate order was placed and it was installed 24th August.

IIRC the flyer from BT telling me that Infinity would "soon be available" arrived about 2 days before I went live with IDNet



Progress report for anyone who might be interested:

According to the installer I was the 3rd customer on my cabinet (around 400 metres away), and connected at the full 40Mbps (profile of 38717) with ~10mSec latency. As time went on the BQM was showing increasing re-syncs up to two or three a day. In mid-December my profile dropped to about 33.5Mbps and latency went up to ~20mSec, so I assume the DLM threw its toys out of the pram and put me on interleaved with a higher target SNR. It's been pretty stable since, with a resync to a similar state every day or so.

Time will tell whether it's cross-talk as the take up increases on my cabinet or Christmas lights/heating systems... I don't do gaming so I don't mind the interleave, but I'd like that 38717 profile back!!!

Edited by billford (Thu 13-Jan-11 23:51:44)

In reply to a post by billford:

so I assume the DLM threw its toys out of the pram and put me on interleaved with a higher target SNR. It's been pretty stable since, with a resync to a similar state every day or so.

Time will tell whether it's cross-talk as the take up increases on my cabinet or Christmas lights/heating systems... I don't do gaming so I don't mind the interleave, but I'd like that 38717 profile back!!!

Two questions Bill:

How do you know that you get resyncs every day? Have you found a way to get stats out of the modem?

Do you remember what the original speed prediction was? I can't help wondering if the prediction tool bases it on some level of cable-fill, so there's undobtedly going to be some reductions for the first people on-board.

My distance is about 500m, and the prediction is for 30.1Mbps - but other's experience suggests I'm about on the boundary for full 40Mbps performance initially.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Exactly my thoughts, but several engineers on here have confirmed those are their instructions. All the work done, and if it sync's at 13Mbps undo it all?

Though there is a 5Mbps product on the way I believe.

Are those still current instructions to OR engineers? I thought they'd already relaxed their limit to 5Mbps in the last few weeks - and this was about the same time that the checker started returning results below 15Mbps.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Two questions Bill:

How do you know that you get resyncs every day?

I keep a tab open on my BQM which auto-updates every 30 minutes- any disconnection shows as a spike of lost packets. As soon as I see one I double check with the router log that it's not something at tbb's end (a typical disconnect lasts about 70 seconds which is an extra clue) and run the BT speedtester, keeping a record of the result. It always returns a slightly different profile figure, and a resync is the likeliest cause.

(Obviously if I happen to be using the computer at the time, the disconnection is rather more obvious- for one thing I can see the DSL light flashing on the modem)

I have to say that I get the feeling the DLM is doing "exploratory" resyncs to see if anything has improved... but I can't be sure.

Have you found a way to get stats out of the modem?

Regretfully, no . It amazes me that somebody hasn't come up with a hack yet

Do you remember what the original speed prediction was?

I think it was 19Mbps, but it was in the fairly early days when the predictions were even more pessimistic than they are now.

I can't help wondering if the prediction tool bases it on some level of cable-fill, so there's undobtedly going to be some reductions for the first people on-board.

Yeah, I thought of that too

The checker was returning results below 15Mbps long before the 5Mbps (yet to come?) product was announced. That's how ISPs like ADSL24 were able to order, and find over 15Mbps actual.

Another progress report... the MSAN decided to try another resync earlier today, but this time the profile went up to 37333 and the latency back to ~10msec, as though I've been put back on fastpath (now all the Christmas lights have been turned off?).

My Broadband Ping (Ignore the packet loss spikes before the latency drop, that was me messing about with IPv6)

It goes against all my finer feelings to say it, but I'm beginning to think that BT have finally got a DLM that has the customer's interests built in to it

In reply to a post by billford:

Another progress report... the MSAN decided to try another resync earlier today, but this time the profile went up to 37333 and the latency back to ~10msec, as though I've been put back on fastpath (now all the Christmas lights have been turned off?).

My Broadband Ping (Ignore the packet loss spikes before the latency drop, that was me messing about with IPv6)

It goes against all my finer feelings to say it, but I'm beginning to think that BT have finally got a DLM that has the customer's interests built in to it

Or it just doesn't understand what is going on so reacts immediately. I would be surprised if it is taking different actions depending on it being FTTC rather than ADSL2+.

For example, one possibility could be that there is some sort of quantitative jump in sync that causes a rapid profile rise, as well as the percentage one we know about. At these levels that is more likely to be triggered.

I'm beginning to think that BT have finally got a DLM that has the customer's interests built in to it

customer or end user ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

customer or end user ?

Good point- end user.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I would be surprised if it is taking different actions depending on it being FTTC rather than ADSL2+.

I never said it was... essentially I'm talking about the latest version.

On earlier versions, if a noise or other event caused a resync to a lower speed and forced interleave to be enabled, then no improvement in SNR or error rate would initiate another resync back to the "good" status. That changed to some extent on ADSL2+ but it was buggy- I know, I suffered . The latest version seems to try "on spec" resyncs now and then to see what happens.

It's not just me btw, griff_90 is seeing not dissimilar effects.

I'll admit that a lot is conjecture because the stats aren't available, but it fits what is actually happening.


edit- dammit, down to 35372, but still looks like fastpath.

Edited by billford (Sun 16-Jan-11 18:18:08)