installation question

At the moment i have a cable that goes from the ADSL/Modem port on the filter at the master socket to the back of my ADSL router in the 'Internet' port. When FTTC is installed, is this the same cable that will supply the new router?

The problem is the cable is about 15m long and goes behind a wall cabinet to get to the router next to my pc. The wall cabinet can't be moved so i wouldn't be able to get a new cable behind it.

Would it be the same cable for FTTC or does it use a different cable?

Thanks

Oh dear.

The setup is different on FTTC. BT Openreach do the installation and provide a VDSL2 modem. This has to be close to the master socket, where they fit a new filtered faceplate. If you go for BT Infinity then BT Broadband supply a (cable version) Home Hub. With other ISPs you can buy a suitable router from them, or buy one elsewhere as I did.

Your new router doesn't need to be next to the modem, but connects to it with an ethernet cable. So you can't use your existing 15m one that way . What sort of cable is it exactly? (Thinking of post-installation solutions).

What may be a possibility if it is a good quality extension cable is that the engineer might move the master socket to the other end of it, and use another pair in the cable to get a phone signal back to the existing position, with a normal socket. Note I say "may be". Very possibly he won't - let's see what others think.

Have you ordered FTTC, or just thinking about it?

if there is slack perhaps the engineer can tie a new cable to the existing and use it as a draw rope to pull a data extension cord - or if you have a long ethernet cable of teh same length you could do the same leaving the new modem by the socket and router where it is. In any case the engineer will be able to sort something out - its the sort of thing they come across everyday.

I think the cable is a phone cable (RJ11).

I didn't think it was an extension because it would be the same if the router was right next to the master socket. There's the master socket with an adsl filter plugged in. In the ADSL socket of the filter is the cable i'm talking about which goes straight to the router.

It would be plugged in the same way to the ADSL filter if the router was right next to it, it's just 15m away or so.

Wouldn't an extension be a cable that plugs into the master socket or filter and then have another socket on the end of it to plug another cable into it for the router?

I've tried to explain it but i understand if that's confused you a bit.

I haven't order FTTC yet, i'm just thinking about it as it went live on Wednesday.

you could leave your existing cable in place and use it to connect the Openreach modem to the master socket. Not sure if Openreach would accept that (anyone ?)

Other options are to have them put your master socket where you want the router, or run a new data extension kit from the master to the modem location 15m away.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What may be a possibility if it is a good quality extension cable is that the engineer might move the master socket to the other end of it, and use another pair in the cable to get a phone signal back to the existing position, with a normal socket. Note I say "may be". Very possibly he won't - let's see what others think.

That is exactly what happened with my BT Infinity installation last week. The extension cable they used was the original ADSL extension kit that BT fitted on my engineer installed ADSL in 2001.

Let me see if I understand the setup right.

The Openreach engineer installs a new faceplate.
Using an RJ11 phone cable to connect the VDSL modem to the new faceplate.
This connects to the new router using a CAT5e cable.

Is this right or have i got this wrong?

Yep, that's it.

*If* your current RJ11 cable is of a good twisted variety. Then I would be happy to the modem on the end of it. Clearly it's different strokes for different folks, but there's no harm in asking.

I agree - a 15M RJ11 cable is likely to be the weakest part of the link, and would probably be the most susceptible to interference. But it might be fine, especially if it is, as Zarjaz says, good-quality and twisted.

You could probably take some measurements from your ADSL line stats, and compare them to a setup with a short cable, to see if it is adding problems. It wouldn't be conclusive, as VDSL2 works to higher frequencies.

That's what i'm wondering.

If the VDSL modem is connected to the faceplate with an RJ11 phone cable, why does it need to be next to the faceplate?

The current RJ11 phone cable is just a standard flat cable that goes to the back of the current router.

So could i not put the modem at the end of the current RJ11 cable about 15m away from the master socket?

The problem is that the cheapest, flat, flexible cables are the ones that are most susceptible to interference. That is a universal truth, and goes whatever the connector at the end - RJ11, RJ45 for ethernet, or BT phone connector.

Experience tells us that cheap'n'nasty BT extension cables cannot sustain ADSL signals for very long.

Experience also tells us that flat flexible RJ11 cables become more susceptible as they get longer - and 15M is quite long for one of those. Twisted pairs reduce the interference, but they are a rarer variety of cable.

Even ethernet specs only allow flexible-type patch cables to be a max of 30M when solid-core cable will take the signal 100M. And these are usually designed with twists on both types, with twists at different rates to also reduce crosstalk.

The VDSL2 signal will want to be kept on the shortest distance of the best quality cable, which is what the BT engineer will need to ensure.

Looking into it the RJ11 cable is more likely an 10m cable at most. It basically goes to the opposite side of the room to the master socket. So it's 10m at most.

Do you think this would be ok?

Is there anyway to find out if it would be ok?

just ask the engineer what he thinks, he can test at the socket and then the cable to check if it is a problem, but the best way is a short cable from the master or allow the engineer to run a data extension kit (which I believe is free anyway).

In reply to a post by Corbula:

That's what i'm wondering.

If the VDSL modem is connected to the faceplate with an RJ11 phone cable, why does it need to be next to the faceplate?

The current RJ11 phone cable is just a standard flat cable that goes to the back of the current router.

So could i not put the modem at the end of the current RJ11 cable about 15m away from the master socket?

We have been told that when the new kit is fitted, only to use what's suppplied..( remove all other leads etc.)

A new nte5 should be fitted and the rj11 in the new kit is used to connect the modem ( app 1m ). The modem is connected to the router by an ethernet cable, supplied with red ends, and is approx 2m long. After that the choice is for you to run an ethernet cable to your pc, OR ask the engineer to do 1 of 2 things...run a data extension kit or move the nte5 using ordinary telephone cable, to your pc's location. Don't forget the coffee !

The modem is connected to the router by an ethernet cable, supplied with red ends, and is approx 2m long.

Is that a BT Infinity HH you are talking about? We don't all go for Infinity .

Mine is an attractive medium-dark blue 1m ethernet cable with transparent plugs.

I'm not going for Infinity, but i'm not sure who i'm going with yet.

Personally i think the RJ11 cable i've got in place now would be ok, otherwise i've got a bit of a problem.

If the cable isn't ok and the modem has to go next to the master socket, the router will also have to go next to that. My pc doesn't have wireless though to connect to the router, it only uses cable.

Has the computer got a USB2 socket? (USB1 or 1.1 won't be fast enough).

I got a Buffalo Airstation Nfiniti WHR-G300Nv2 router off Amazon for £23.56 last week. (I didn't bother with the more expensive later model). That seems fine, and you can also get a Buffalo USB Wireless dongle for £17.71.

Just a thought.

Maybe not, but as 95% of fttc is infinity at the moment, I was responding to the original post as well...

At the moment i have a cable that goes from the ADSL/Modem port on the filter at the master socket to the back of my ADSL router in the 'Internet' port. When FTTC is installed, is this the same cable that will supply the new router?

The problem is the cable is about 15m long and goes behind a wall cabinet to get to the router next to my pc. The wall cabinet can't be moved so i wouldn't be able to get a new cable behind it.

Would it be the same cable for FTTC or does it use a different cable?

This is the fibre forum ???????

I don't see the relevance of your reply to my post about the description of the modem <> router ethernet cable. Your description is specific to one ISP and the OP replied to my same post and ruled out Infinity, 7 hours before this one of yours.

Your description of the cable was therefore inaccurate in general as I pointed out, (and I see you are not capable of spotting a correct but tongue-in-cheek hunourous post without it being made obvious - which rather defeats the object ), and wrong in the particular instance as seemed likely to me from the wording of the opening post.

When quoting another post by the OP, as you do in this case, it is conventional either to enclose it in quotes or the tbb forum quote box such as follows in a mo, or italicise it.

The reason for your final question to me

This is the fibre forum ???????

baffles me. That is the name of the forum, yes. Was my post inappropriate to here, or did it make you doubt I knew where we were?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Has the computer got a USB2 socket? (USB1 or 1.1 won't be fast enough).

I got a Buffalo Airstation Nfiniti WHR-G300Nv2 router off Amazon for £23.56 last week. (I didn't bother with the more expensive later model). That seems fine, and you can also get a Buffalo USB Wireless dongle for £17.71.

Just a thought.

If i had to go down this route, for the installation because they wouldn't put the modem at the end of the current cable. Would i just be able to move it afterwards?

Unless you have done a full spectrum analysis you are guessing that the cable will be fine.

VDSL2 uses higher frequencies than ADSL2+ or ADSL, and can be seriously affected by untwisted runs, it will most likely work but you might be sacrificing 5 to 10Meg to a poor cable.

The engineers can be flexible sometimes, but they will not do anything that goes against their install rules, as they will get a bad mark if at a later date you get another visit to resolve unstable VDSL2 and the issue is what they did.

Is there no way at you can pull a CAT5 cable through to replace the RJ11 lead, i.e. VDSL2 modem at master (ideal location) and then router using Ethernet can be up to 100m away with no real impact.

On the back wiring to the master, was ok with ADSL, but am more suspect of doing that with VDSL2, as in time they will relax the speed rules and we might see 60, 80Meg or more from the VDSL2.

Would i just be able to move it afterwards?

well it is your house

At worst you might have to put it back if a fault developed and you needed an engineer visit.

The cabinet is made to measure for the corner of the room and the cable was in-place before the cabinet was put there. So there isn't enough room to put an ethernet cable through.

After roughly measuring the room the router is about 6m away so the RJ11 cable is about 7m-8m.

Well initially you could get an ethernet cable long enough to go round the floor agains the walls while you decide what to do?

It partly depends on money. Maybe 200kbps Devolo Homeplugs, or the new 500Mbps ones might be better in your case.

Well it wouldn't be able to go against the wall because of the cabinet, unless it could be moved an inch from the wall but i highly doubt that.

The alternative it to put the modem at the end of the current RJ11 cable, but reading your post it's unlikely the engineer would do that.

The second alternative is to make my pc wireless and have the modem and router sat in the windowsill.

Nothing stopping you moving the modem after engineer has gone, but be sure to always test with the same setup engineer had originally before reporting any fault.

Physically, what is a data extension kit?

A BT Openreach plug-in cable that goes into the VDSL2 socket of the master and gets a dedicated socket put on at the other end for the modem to plug into.

Ok, Another thing is. What's the process for fttc.

I'm guessing i need a MAC code from my current provider? But i also have my calls with them as well (Virgin).

So when ordering FTTC what do i need to do to get my calls back to BT, or will the FTTC provider do this for you?

Virgin ADSL?

Who do you pay the line rental to, or did you mean that to Virgin as well as the calls?

If Virgin, do they allow you to have other broadband ISPs on the line instead of their own? Several ISPs do.

The line doesn't need to be with BT Retail, but let's come back to that after we have the Virgin questions sorted.

It is Virgin ADSL with evening and weekend calls.

I pay line rental to BT.

I just thought that when i get FTTC, to move my calls to BT instead of having calls, line rental, and broadband at 3 different places.

Now you have me confused .

Have you decided yet who you are going to go to for FTTC? I think just about all of them could do all three for you, though my personal preference is stick with BT for rental and calls, then broadband wherever. The bundle reductions are usually minor and I would find the hassle of checking what is feasible every time I wanted to move not worth it.

At the moment everything is too hypothetical to advise you on the best sequence of moves.

Lol, right sorry for the confusion.

At the moment I have ADSL broadband with Virgin including evening and weekend calls. The line rental is with BT.

I don't know who I'm going with for fttc just yet. I thought line rental had to be with BT? And I wasn't aware of anywhere doing fttc broadband and calls. I thought it all just broadband not calls.

Within PlusNet's standard (non-FTTC) packages, you can certainly get them to take ownership of the line for voice calls too.

In the FTTC trial, you can add FTTC on top of this combination too.

The line is notionally a "BT" one, in that it still runs through BT's exchange kit, and not LLU.

So with Plusnet can you have a Post Office phone ?

I have emailed them but no answer yet. Probably have to give them a call later.

In reply to a post by alanscoachdriver:

So with Plusnet can you have a Post Office phone ?

I have emailed them but no answer yet. Probably have to give them a call later.

That's an upside-down question!

You can have Plusnet Broadband on a Post Office phone line, yes. Or if you are on a BT (Retail) line and broadband on Plusnet, you can move the phone line rental to the Post Office, Plusnet, or a host of others. Even Sky!

You just have to make sure the service you move the line to allows you to have any ISP's broadband on it, not just the rental firm's own.

So some possibles above. Some not possibles are:-

Broadband not with Plusnet and phone not with Plusnet, you cannot move the line to Plusnet unless you migrate your broadband to them as well. Though I believe if you have both with Plusnet you can migrate the broadband out and keep the phone line.

Broadband not with O2 or Be, you cannot move your phone line to O2 or Be unless you also migrate the broadband to the same one. But if you migrate the broadband out, you have to move the line out as well soon after.

I wasn't aware of that. I think it's best having line rental with BT though.

Well I currently have my phone with the Post Office and broadband with O2.

When I trialled an order online with Plusnet is detected that my line wasn't BT or Plusnet and just offered me the chance to migrate the phone line to Plusnet when ordering the broadband. There was no option to just order the broadband.

Anyway, no response from my email to Plusnet (Why have an enquiry form if you don't reply ?). So just rang them and yes I could keep my Post Office phone line and transfer just the broadband.

Just tried another trial order and it now works as expected and I see a completely different set of pages. So guess it must of been a glitch the other day.

Edited by alanscoachdriver (Wed 23-Feb-11 18:19:30)

In reply to a post by alanscoachdriver:

... So guess it must of been a glitch the other day.

Yep, a dodgy link perhaps.

What would 21CN WBC mean to my current broadband (Virgin ADSL)? That gets enabled on 31st March. Will it bring any other LLU providers with it?

I would go with BT Infinity because there's no installation costs and you don't have to buy a router, but i hear they've got a lot of problems, and i'm worried about their traffic management. That's why i'm ruling them out.

In reply to a post by Corbula:

What would 21CN WBC mean to my current broadband (Virgin ADSL)? That gets enabled on 31st March. Will it bring any other LLU providers with it?

I would go with BT Infinity because there's no installation costs and you don't have to buy a router, but i hear they've got a lot of problems, and i'm worried about their traffic management. That's why i'm ruling them out.

You are good at confusing me .

21CN WBC is BT Wholesale ADSL2+. Nothing to do with Infinity or any other FTTC, nor LLU.

It allows any seller of BT Wholesale products, typically the ADSL Max (IPStream/IPSC) "up to 8Mbps" packages to supply up to 24Mbps as well or instead.

Sorry lol. I just don't know what to do.

I know it has nothing to do with BT Infinity, it was just a side question as 21CN should be enabled here soon.

But I did answer your actual question about LLU.

I put the bit about FTTC in case you thought WBC was needed for FTTC. It isn't. Or to be more precise, it isn't needed at your exchange, as FTTC links from your cabinet can be to a different exchange that does have WBC.

Yea thanks, The reason i was asking about LLU was because i was hoping 21CN WBC might bring o2/BE to my exchange.

I'm not sure what to do for the better at the moment. I just want fast internet, low pings times and no throttling.So i'm considering LLU and FTTC as that's recently become available.

Not easy .

What does seem to be the case is that BT Wholesale WBC/DLM is unstable in some cases on ADSL2+, where the same people had/have no problems on ADSL or on a switch to LLU.

On FTTC the DLM seems to be a different version and possibly much better.

Sorry I can't be much clearer than that, it's just my impressions from what I see.

As for WBC bringing O2/Be, exactly the opposite is the norm. Significant LLU take-up brings WBC! And I think any further O2/Be rollout at the moment is unlikely.