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Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 11-Mar-11 11:37:44
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Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


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My area of SW London is currently undergoing some updating as regards Internet connectivity. Under the new FTTC project, BT are installing some new street cabinets and optical fibre into some of the pavement ducts.

I myself am especially interested in eventually changing from my ADSL2 connection to an FTTC one, though I suspect that, for reasons outside my control, that might not be for some time yet. But in so doing I want to make other changes at home. I'll want to retain my Windows PC's Ethernet connection as a wired one but I'll also now want to include a Mac laptop into my setup in the form of wireless connection. I'll of course need a VDSL modem, which I gather will be supplied via BT, and I fancy getting a new router such as the Bipac 7800N, to partner that modem. I gather that the 7800N handles both wired and wireless connections.

My understanding is that BT will insist on installing the modem next to my master socket. So, I'm currently trying to plan how best to topologically arrange my new system, especially as my master socket is situated in my living room but my computer room is two rooms away (currently linked with a wired connection from the back of the master socket). My preference will be to have the 7800N in that computer room. Obviously, before ordering FTTC, I'd want to fully prepare my setup, in terms of the requisite wiring.

I'm lacking information, though, on exactly how BT will need to change the master socket and the new connections to/from it. Without this, I can't properly plan my new wiring. I intend using Cat5e cable for a new wired connection (replacing the old one, which will now be used only for a telephone) which I believe will need to run from the VDSL modem to an RJ45 socket in the computer room.

So, can anyone here who's already got fibre broadband supply any pictures of their home connection, so that I can see what sort of new master socket will be fitted, how the VDSL modem will attach to it, and what filters will be used to enable landline phones to be included in the setup? Information on this seems all a bit woolly at the moment. In my case, the very least I'll require is a new NTE5, as my socket's a pre-1980 type. Standard phone wiring runs from the back of it, through an adjacent room, to a slave BT socket in the computer room, to which my existing ADSL router is attached. At that slave socket, I also have a plug-in filter, allowing me to attach a phone there.

As an aside, I've been keeping a general eye open for FTTC activity in my part of this suburb. The local exchange is due to go live at the end of March (or at least, that's the theory). Last Summer, fibre was installed under the main drag and, last month I noticed that two new cabinets were installed in the main road that runs parallel to mine. Sure enough, just two days ago, I bumped into BT installing fibres in that road, from those cabinets, and I stopped and talked to them about it. Contrary to what I was anticipating, they're doing it very ad-hoc. From what I was told, it seems that not all of the subscribers on that exchange will get FTTC in the first phase. So, I suppose the money is being spread quite thinly. Anyway, I'm living in hope. It'll be great to have a much faster connection, as I'm on a long, ropey copper line at present and can only reliably sync at 3.5M bps. My predicted sync on FTTC is 27M bps.
Standard User Ribble
(regular) Fri 11-Mar-11 12:39:53
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
I dont have FTTC but they will provide a new NTE with a built in xDSL filter , much like the origianl engineer ADSL installs but the design is different.
VDSL is then filtered at the NTE and any phone extension wiring is connected in the usuall manner, so no further filters are required.
I believe currently there is scope for the technician to move the existing socket, but it may not meet your requirements as to what they can reasonably do. Alternatively I believe they still offer the 30m data extension kit, which is basically an ethernet cable with a plug on one end that connects to the new faceplate, and socket at the other where the modem is connected.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 11-Mar-11 14:48:45
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately, Ribble, that's all pretty vague. I knew that already. Thanks for attempting to help, though.

Filtering, in order to separate out VDSL from phone (or from anything else), can in principle be done internally (within the NTE5, or newly-designed NTE5 if such a thing exists) or externally. I need to know how it'll be done.

Using a 30m extension cable will not be a practical proposition in my case, nor in many others. Instead, getting wiring from the one room to the other will, as now, require going through solid walls, around skirting boards and then through walls again, at each end terminating properly in a wall-mounted RJ45 socket.

The only way to gauge this is to for me to ask someone who has FTTC already and who's taken an interest in this side of it. That's of course what I'm doing here.

The impression I've hitherto gained is that BT will come along and 'fit a modification' to the NTE5, and that, as a consequence, that mod will allow a VDSL modem to be connected (and presumably also allow one or more phones to also be connected?). If an NTE5 doesn't already exist, they'll fit one anyway. One particular point I need clarifying is whether the 'modification' will allow for slave phone extension wiring to still be used (of the kind permanently wired into the back of the master socket).


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Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 11-Mar-11 14:59:29
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Some stuff here may help http://bt.custhelp.com/app/hub/c/346,3014,3016



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User Squirrel
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 11-Mar-11 15:01:41
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
I described my setup in this post

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/3969054-re-...

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 11-Mar-11 15:17:53
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
I've added a picture of it to my FTTx page. Modem connects into the top, phone to the bottom. Extensions if any are wired off the back of the bottom removable bit, just like a normal faceplate shown removed on this page.

As Ribble says, the engineer will replace the old master socket. He has three options at least re the wiring. I started this reply a while ago and have had many interruptions, including taking the photo and updating the web page, so some of what I'm putting you have already met.

Option 1 is to put it where the old master is and reconnect any existing extension wiring to it. Modem close to it.

Option 2 would be as Option 1 but run an (up to 30m) data extension cable to where you want the modem.

Option 3 would be as Squirrel describes his installation. Sounds best, as long as that existing extension cable is suitable.

Re a router, the Buffalo WHR-G300Nv2 is what I have and it seems fine. Two posters have since got them, see this post and MrGrumpy in the same thread. Darn good for under £25!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
Standard User Ribble
(regular) Fri 11-Mar-11 16:04:20
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
The Filter is an Interstitial design, bit like the I-Plate. The existing service plate is removed, but any existing extension wiring is left connected. The VDSL filter is then fitted to the NTE5 and the original service plate (with any phone extension wiring still connected) is replaced.
In your case though, the technician will likely reconnect any extension wiring as you will require a new NTE5.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 11-Mar-11 16:45:43
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Squirrel] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for both of those links. Very useful.

I think one of the re-wiring schemes I've had in mind (on the existing user side of my master socket) to perform before ordering FTTC will comply with BT's requirements for that. You see, the thing is that my computer and associated equipment will be two rooms away from the master socket, and I live in a place with solid floors. So, there's no way that any BT technician would have the time or inclination to drill through walls and install Cat5e wiring from room to room to room. I myself will do that, well in advance. I've got the necessary cable and appropriate RJ45 sockets. I'll leave my existing hard-wired phone extension (IDC connectors on the back of the master socket) in place, as that extension will still be needed for the phone in the computer room. I'll run a separate hard-wired Cat5e from a socket next to the new master socket to the computer room, to feed the router there.

The only doubt I have about such an arrangement would be that the existing phone/ADSL extension would represent a large spur on the end of the FTTC line and, unless buffered from the FTTC line in some way, would ruin the performance of the FTTC line. I think it's probably for that reason that, in one of the recently-described FTTC installations, the technicians turned the phone extension socket into a new master socket and then ran a phone line back to the original master socket. Hmm, am going to have to give this some more serious thought.

As an aside, I was also wondering where BT's RJ11 connection comes into the picture. On the faceplate of the new master socket, I'll need a phone socket (as I have two landline phones, one by the master socket and the other at the extension socket in the computer room). And presumably, that same master faceplate will contain a connection to the VDSL modem (which in my case will be about a metre away)? So, will that modem connection involve an RJ11 connector? Am I correct in assuming that, on the router side of the modem, the connection will be RJ45 to RJ45?

Afterthought: an unwanted spur will be avoided if the filter for the extension is incorporated into the master socket (NTE5), rather than being a discrete one, as at present, on the far end of the extension. Otherwise, in retrospect, I don't think swapping around the master and slave locations would have any beneficial effect.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 11-Mar-11 17:21:26
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
The advantage of swapping the master into the computer room is that both the modem and router would be there, rather than cluttering up the existing master location with the modem.

The link between the modem and the router is standard ethernet plugs, with appropriate (CAT5 is fine) cable.

The phone socket on the new faceplate, as shown in my pic, is indeed filtered. That's the point of it. So are any extensions wired off it.

The only reason I could see for fitting a new socket by the existing master, assuming you get the replacement put there, would be to feed a short ethernet cable from the modem to it, to supply the router in the computer room. At which point the location of the modem starts to look like a comms room.

As a possibly relevant point, as I understand it the latest VDSL faceplates have an unfiltered connection on them to feed extension data cables, rather than the current extender which just plugs into the front VDSL socket. Now if you were supplied with one of those faceplates, your "waiting" CAT5 could be connected to those unfiltered ones. Then the modem could be in the computer room.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-Mar-11 19:34:59
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Not sure why the OP is so worried ? 'The engineer not having the inclination to drill walls and run cable'. That's what they do.

If the OP wished to make life simple, then they should run a standard CAT5 cable, suitably RJ45'd at either end, to where they wish the router to be, from the existing NTE. That way the engineer will fit the VDSL faceplate filter on the NTE, fix the modem next to that, then use your CAT5 to feed the router.

Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 12-Mar-11 00:10:43
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Roberto, you're more-or-less correct in your assessment. What Zarjaz is suggesting is also in line with my ideas on this, though I definitely don't agree that BT technicians are there to drill holes in walls, as their time is limited. There are specific practical difficulties in doing so in my case, requiring careful and lengthy work, certainly needing much longer than an hour to be spent on it. So, this is something I'm personally not going to let a BT technician loose on, I'm afraid.

I've now drawn out schematics of the two possible setups I could have. In one, the VDSL modem would be situated next to the master socket, and the PPPoE router would be in the computer room, connected to the modem via appropriate Cat5e cable, patchleads and RJ45 sockets. The existing BT extension at the back of the master socket and which, at that point, passes right through the wall into the next room would continue to feed a BT slave socket in the computer room with Phone no.2 (as exists now). Phone no.1 would be plugged into the new master socket (new NTE5). I'm assuming that NTE5s themselves contain filters but I have to confess I don't know if that's the case at all. By filter, I mean a proper resistive/inductive/capacitive combination, I don't mean a Ringwire disconnect. At present I use plug-in external filters for the two phones and they work extremely well on my ADSL connection.

The other schematic is where only one phone, rather than two, are connectable to the system. The one phone would be plugged into the master socket. I'd remove the existing hard-wired BT extension cable from the back of the master socket and also at its slave socket termination in the computer room and I'd replace it by a hard-wired Cat5e cable, terminating it in the computer room in an RJ45 socket. The VDSL modem and the router would then be positioned together, by that termination, in the computer room.

There'd be some advantages in having the VDSL modem and router together but, in my particular setup, a disadvantage would be that I'd lose the second phone, unless I were to run a new line through the two rooms again, with all the respective sockets that that'd require (and more drilling, etc).

So, I think I have only two basic queries remaining: (i) is there any filtering provided INSIDE the NTE5 for one or more phones, and (ii) what's the nature of the connection from the master socket to the VDSL modem? Is it an RJ11-to-RJ45 patchlead, with the RJ11 being at the master socket end?
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sat 12-Mar-11 09:36:51
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
From what i understand, yes its internally filtered. and the vdsl connection on the front is just a standard rj45 ethernet connection.
Standard User Squirrel
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 12-Mar-11 10:45:24
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by meditator:
What Zarjaz is suggesting is also in line with my ideas on this, though I definitely don't agree that BT technicians are there to drill holes in walls, as their time is limited.

I believe from reading other posts, but of course I could well be wrong, that Zarjaz is a BT ADSL/VDSL installations "technician" so if he says that BT will drill holes then who am I to disagree. In fact, when my original ADSL extension was fitted in 2001 the the BT chap did indeed drill several holes and did a blooming good job to be honest.

Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 12-Mar-11 15:58:36
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Okay, let's assume then that the master socket (new NTE5) has a filtered output on its faceplate for a phone. Do you reckon that that filter also filters the IDC phone extension connections at the back of it? If so, it'd mean I couldn't use the rear connections to continue the unfiltered FTTC line to the computer room.

So if I implement my described arrangement where both the modem and the router are located in the computer room, I think I'll probably need only a standard NTE5, ie. I won't need one with both a phone outlet AND an RJ45 outlet on the faceplate. But, as I say, the rear set of connections on it will need to be unfiltered, because I'll be using the new NTE5 to pass on the FTTC line to the modem in the computer room. Is that how a standard NTE5 is organised? And will I need to ask the technician for an i-Plate to be used, to disconnect the Bell wire?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 12-Mar-11 16:25:30
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
(Edit - composed and posted before I had seen your latest post).

smile
I don't think you are reading some replies in quite the detail that you expect us to read and understand yours. It has been said, quite categorically, by myself and others that there are two sockets on the new faceplate. One is (an unfiltered one) for the VDSL connection, a standard ADSL type cable. (This is supplied with the modem by Openreach). The other is a filtered socket for the phone.

That's all the new faceplate is. In fact it isn't even necessary! Any filtered faceplate such as the ADSL Nation XTE-2005 or Solwise and Clarity equivalents would do the job, as would your existing dangle filter. Just that with the FTTC engineer install they fit theirs, as they have to guarantee the result.

Your existing extension to the computer room will continue to work fine. So will the phone near the master.

I suggest an experiment, after the engineer has left, as unless you go for Infinity you will be supplying your own router and getting that connected isn't technically within his remit.

Get an XTE-2005 faceplate, have it ready. Remove the Openreach VDSL facpelate and fit the XTE-2005, but instead of attaching the extension cable to the T2 and T5 IDCs connect them to the unfiltered A/B ADSL ones.

Bingo! The modem can now be moved to the computer room and be connected either with a dangly filter to the existing socket, or you can replace the faceplate on that with an ADSL Nation XTF68 or XTF85, depending on the size of your existing box.

There is another scenario that I touched on in my earlier post, but that would muddy the waters at the moment. Let's see what you think of this idea for now smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 12-Mar-11 16:27:33)

Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 12-Mar-11 22:21:58
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, Roberto, perhaps I should have published my diagrams here. That would have helped explain. You and others did nevertheless understand my textual description. As for me not apparently reading your own description properly, well, I did. It's just that I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly), from other topics in the Fibre Broadband forum, that other slightly different NTE5s were now offered by BT and so I was rather hoping BT would be able to supply and fit me with one that had just a phone socket on the faceplate but with also unfiltered extension terminals at the back. Seems I misunderstood that, though.

Yes, your suggestion about using an XTE-2005 on the new NTE5 and of possibly also using an XTF85 at the wall connection in my computer room is a jolly good idea. I have to confess I've got out of touch with what ADSL Nation and Clarity offer these days. I'd intended using just an RJ45 socket on the wall in the computer room, partly because that would give me more flexibility as to where, in relation to it, I could site the modem and router (long RJ45 patchleads being more plentiful and easy to get than RJ11-to-RJ45 or RJ11-to-RJ11 leads), but I may now fit an XTF85 there instead, as that'd allow me to still connect a second phone in the house.

Both the XTE-2005 and the XTF85 will come with the modem socket outlet labelled "ADSL", which strictly won't be the case any longer, once I get FTTC, but I don't suppose it matters.

It's a pity BT aren't more geared up to providing a better selection of master sockets and generally being a bit more flexible, as not everyone will want the modem plonked right next to their master socket. After all, many master sockets are traditionally and now rather inappropriately situated in hallways and places by the front door. Mine's right in my living room - convenient for using the phone but not an appropriate place for a modem or any other permanently-installed computer gear, especially as my place is a bungalow and the rooms are small.
Standard User andyboygsi
(member) Sat 12-Mar-11 22:35:03
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
righty, you have all made this sound really difficult.

the modem does not need to be next to the nte, we are able to supply and fit data extension kits which allow the modem to be fitted upto 30m from the nte.

so, if you want to be ahead of the game heres what you need to do.....

run a cat5 or 6 from your existing nte to the room where you currently have your adsl modem, on the end at the nte terminate an rj45 plug, and at the router end simply leave a coil of cable.

speak nicely to the engineer and explain you have already ran a data extension cable from socket to router and if he would terminate a socket on it that would be great, unless he is overly awkward he will do it as it saves precious time, the one thing we dont have enough off.

the only thing to be aware of is openreach will not gaurantee your personally run data extension.

easy peasy

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.

BTBroadband
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 12-Mar-11 22:47:35
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
smile
The option I mentioned but deliberately side-stepped is that the VDSL faceplate may be one of the newer ones, with internal unfiltered connectors available aka the XTE-2005. Especially considering you won't be ordering for a while.

If so, given a good enough existing cable then the engineer may happily connect that to those. Achieving exactly the same outcome as my XTE-2005/XTF85 solution.

The option I would otherwise aim for in your situation would still be the squirrel one, but IIRC you weren't too keen on that. It also needs the engineer at the time to consider the cable between the two rooms to be suitable. That way the current master becomes an extension with just a phone socket, and the new NTE5 plus VDSL faceplate for modem and phone goes in the computer room.

The trouble is the more we discuss hypothetical setups the more confusing it gets, as there is no perfect hassle-free solution. We started from your wanting to have the wiring all pre-sorted, and now we are discussing possibly changing things after installation and needing to do rapid and successful connection changes.

But at least I think you are now aware of the issues, and what is feasible.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 12-Mar-11 22:48:12)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 12-Mar-11 22:51:52
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andyboygsi:
righty, you have all made this sound really difficult....
Already been suggested and discussed!

The latest discussion is to make use of the existing cable if it is suitable.

What we haven't done is ask the OP exactly what specification and quality that is smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
Standard User stevepressman
(learned) Sun 13-Mar-11 01:14:36
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Sorry if I am hijacking this but I am confused about one thing regarding the new socket the BT Engineer will fit.

My socket at the moment currently sits in my hallway, my PC set up is in the lounge approx 3.5 metres from the socket. Am I correct in assuming that if I ask the BT Engineer he will move the socket to where I really need it in my lounge next to where the PC and phone reside. As I currently run an extension cable and it would be nicer if that could be done. This would be the ideal solution for me, who has there PC and phone in their hallways ???

Oh yes can anybody tell me the approx length of the cable that the Modem comes with ?

Regards

Steve
Standard User andyboygsi
(member) Sun 13-Mar-11 07:58:00
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: stevepressman] [link to this post]
 
yes he/she will more than likely go with that option as stapling 4wire is quicker than cleating cat5e

socket to openreach modem via typical dsl cable 1M

modem to router via cat5 1M also

rough guesses, its to early to go and get them out the van to measure

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.

BTBroadband
Standard User D_an_W
(member) Sun 13-Mar-11 08:49:15
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
Thats exactly what I did.

The engineer was "concerned" I wasn't going to wall mount the modem but was happy enough when I said it was going to sit by itself on a shelf beside my AEBS (They do run warm).

Standard User Goza
(newbie) Mon 14-Mar-11 17:18:43
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
I think that everything has been covered in this thread but it all appears much more complicated than need be. When it came to my installation, I was faced with a similar issue but I had two basic options; leave the Master socket where it is or move it to a more convenient location.

I opted to leave it where it was, Openreach engineer installed new socket and plugged modem into it, leaving it on the hallway floor. The modem is linked to the socket with a standard RJ11 fly lead so all I did was to run a long RJ11 to RJ11 cable from the master socket to my router location where I moved the modem. The cable is thin and was easy to hide and handle all the way. It works a treat. I used a ready made one and hid the slack but it would have been easy enough to make one. You have a choice of flat or round cable as well (I used flat).

I am intrigued by all the mention of RJ45 plugs though; my master socket has an RJ11 socket, not RJ45. Unless people are mentioning it in terms of connecting the router to the modem.
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Mon 14-Mar-11 17:42:50
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Goza] [link to this post]
 
All filter faceplates, including the VSDL one, have a RJ45 socket for broadband. This will also accept a RJ11 as well as a RJ45 plug.
Standard User Goza
(newbie) Mon 14-Mar-11 18:58:58
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by systemx:
All filter faceplates, including the VSDL one, have a RJ45 socket for broadband. This will also accept a RJ11 as well as a RJ45 plug.


I must have a closer look when I get home! I knew RJ45 socket accepts RJ11 but I could have sworn that mine was RJ11.

What about the socket on the modem? I'm fairly certain that is an RJ11 socket.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 15-Mar-11 11:49:32
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Goza] [link to this post]
 
Goza, what you've done is, strictly speaking, 'contrary to BT's intention' in so far as siting the new modem by the master socket. But personally, I can see nothing wrong with what you've done, nor can I understand the insistence of BT in always siting the modem at the master socket. I guess it must be something to do with BT being reluctant to otherwise take on the responsibilty for any extension wiring (since I guess they take on everything up to and including the modem).

You yourself, Goza, have been fortunate in being able to find a way of neatly laying an extension lead but please don't assume that this is always possible, or even aesthetically desirable, as many of us live in single-storey places with solid floors and thick brick partition walls.

For those of us who can't find an easy solution like yours, there are other ways of achieving the same, using a succession of wall penetrations and additional wall-mounted socketry. RobertoS has recently suggested a method, one that assumes making an unfiltered extension from the back of the master socket. (The extension connections on a standard NTE5 are filtered, I gather). This would involve replacing the consumer bit of the master NTE5 master socket with, say, an XTE-2005, and using either an XTF85 wall socket on the end of the extension or an RJ45 wall socket. The situation with BT and NTE5s, though, seems to be a bit fluid at present and there's rumour that BT can now provide an NTE5 with unfiltered connections at the rear.

I think the thing to do is let the BT technician install the modem by the NTE5, then yourself change the location of the modem as soon as possible. Making an unfiltered extension should not, in principle, affect the performance of the line, provided the extension's done with good workmanship and good-quality materials are used. I think the new rules now allow for up to 30 metres of customer extension, anyway. As I say, you yourself have now, in effect, done this, but have been fortunate enough to have managed it using just long patchleads.

Edited by meditator (Tue 15-Mar-11 11:56:20)

Standard User WWWombat
(regular) Tue 15-Mar-11 12:21:22
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Goza] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Goza:
In reply to a post by systemx:
All filter faceplates, including the VSDL one, have a RJ45 socket for broadband. This will also accept a RJ11 as well as a RJ45 plug.


I must have a closer look when I get home! I knew RJ45 socket accepts RJ11 but I could have sworn that mine was RJ11.

What about the socket on the modem? I'm fairly certain that is an RJ11 socket.

My existing filtered faceplates are RJ11 (6P2C modular connectors), and don't take RJ45 (8P8C).

As far as I've seen so far, FTTC faceplates & modems are no different - the interconnect is an RJ11 cable.

The cable between FTTC modem and router is a full 8P8C RJ45 connection, carrying ethernet. Theoretically, these large sockets can accept the smaller jacks of the RJ11, but they obviously wouldn't carry all 8 connections.
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Tue 15-Mar-11 13:22:14
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
All filter faceplates (the sort which fit onto NTE-5 master sockets) will accept RJ45 plugs as well as RJ11 for the broadband connection. Routers and stand alone modems only accept RJ11 plugs as the line connection. The connections are the centre pair in both plugs.


http://www.presscomm.co.uk/pdf/Pressac_Brochure_AW.pdf

Edited by systemx (Tue 15-Mar-11 13:34:59)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 15-Mar-11 13:27:47
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by systemx:
All filter faceplates (the sort which fit onto NTE-5 master sockets) will accept RJ45 plugs as well as RJ11 for the broadband connection. Routers and stand alone modems only accept RJ11 plugs as the line connection. The connections are the centre pair in both plugs.
You may have to use a hammer though...



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User Goza
(newbie) Tue 15-Mar-11 13:59:35
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
I don't think I've done anything contrary to BT's intention really; the openreach installer offered the option of an extension (up to 30M I think) from the master socket. This would have effectively been the same as what I have done with the main difference being that the Openreach installer would have only done a surface run tacking it on skirting boards and architraves whereas I have hidden the cable and drilled through solid walls, etc. I mentioned it to him at the time and he said fine but the usual caveat of that section being my responsibility (nothing different from having a telephone extension point)

Interestingly, I have had a problem the past week with no connectivity at all so Fast (my ISP) got Openreach onto it. we suspected a faulty modem. Engineer arrived yesterday and in anticipation, I had re-sited the modem to right by the master socket and plugged it in there with the originally supplied RJ11 lead, leaving my extension cable plug dangling nearby.
I was out yesterday but my wife told me that he arrived, said they have been having power supply problems with these modems and promptly changed modem and PSU. However, he didn't plug it in at the master socket, he asked where the router was and actually put it back where I normally have it next to my router and used the extension cable I had fitted! Perhaps he thought it was a BT fitted extension cable.

On the matter of extension cabling; there is always a solution but it's just a matter of either time & skills, or money. If you have the time and skills, you can sort yourself out, otherwise, you can pay someone to do it for you. I had a choice of runs and it was a case of whether I wanted to take more time and trouble for an invisible run or a quicker solution but less aesthetically pleasing. As it is, I went for the neater solution because I'm comfortable fishing cables, drilling and running cables in the eaves, etc. I have solid floors and solid walls.

One day, when we do major work on the house, I will rewire my network cabling and have a proper 'Node 0' with a rack unit in a ventilated cupboard somewhere out of the way.
Standard User WWWombat
(regular) Tue 15-Mar-11 14:52:54
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Goza] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Goza:
I don't think I've done anything contrary to BT's intention really; the openreach installer offered the option of an extension (up to 30M I think) from the master socket.

The general thoughts are that having a long RJ11 lead, particularly a long flat lead, is bad for the sync speed. The length of cable between the master socket (with filter) and the modem, if done in flat, cheap, untwisted cable (like most RJ11 cables), is a significant source of errors on the line.

The trick, then, is all about managing the likelihood of collecting interference on this line. And the BT data extension, I guess, is designed to manage this well. If you've got good quality cable in there, then it probably isn't an issue.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 15-Mar-11 17:51:46
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Wombat, before you posted your last submission about the length of the RJ11 lead, I'd been thinking about exactly the same issue. However, I came to the conclusion that unless any unfiltered extension coming away from the master socket is done with extraordinarily ropey cable, any such extension should make no difference to the performance of the line. Think about it: the copper line going all the way back to the cabinet is in all probability going to be in far less shape than any extension you fashion at the NTE5, and that copper line won't have as many twists in it and therefore be as good at interference rejection as any Cat5 cable you use. Any unfiltered extension you add is merely that - an extension of a few metres of what is already a few hundred metres of cable going back to the DSLAM. So, I don't see why there's apparently such a passion for BT techies to install the modem right by the NTE5.

The only remotely plausible reason I could come up with is that BT may be trying to maintain as uniform a 'transmission line' from the DSLAM as possible, so as to achieve the very best sync speed and reduce the number of retransmissions due to distortion s of the signal. This sort of consideration will become more important at the higher speeds of FTTC. This would not, at least in theory, be achieved if you added an unfiltered extension off the NTE5 and then ran the modem off the extension, as the NTE5 and its internal components would then represent a geometry discontinuity in the transmission line and would theoretically cause reflections and other electrical distortions of the FTTC signal. But I suspect that if any such negative effects do occur at all, they'd be minimal. You'd not get really bad distortions of the signal unless you formed two or more very long extensions or 'spurs', say two that were 5 or 10 metres each, or even more. This is, in fact, one good reason why starred arrangements will become a bit of a no-no with FTTC.

I'm inclined to think, though, that the real reason for BT wanting to connect at the NTE5 rather than at an extension is that, if they do the latter, they cannot then guarantee the customer the complete integrity of the line, since the master socket will have now been shifted some way back down the line.
Standard User kamelion
(experienced) Tue 15-Mar-11 19:58:38
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
and a knife

BeUnlimited
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 2,273 / 21,442
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 15-Mar-11 20:05:03
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: kamelion] [link to this post]
 
and some WD40



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Standard User WWWombat
(regular) Wed 16-Mar-11 00:22:21
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by meditator:
Wombat, before you posted your last submission about the length of the RJ11 lead, I'd been thinking about exactly the same issue. However, I came to the conclusion that unless any unfiltered extension coming away from the master socket is done with extraordinarily ropey cable,

The short answer is that you may be under-estimating the spec of the BT overhead drop cable back to the DSLAM, and under-estimating the impact that your house can have on the signal.

I can't explain it better than this page at ADSL Nation.

Note that the untwisted pairs will not be able to reject any interference, and your house is full of it - especially if your cable runs anywhere close to mains.

Remember that, in most modern BT installations, the #4 wire (bell wire) is effectively used alone, so is effectively untwisted. This wire, running out to extensions, catches a lot of this interference around the house and can inject this into the ADSL signal. It is no coincidence that BT's i-Plate (which disconnects the bell wire) advertises an average speed gain of of 1.5Mbps - its because of the interference within the house.

I was really responding to this part of Goza's statement:
so all I did was to run a long RJ11 to RJ11 cable from the master socket to my router location where I moved the modem. The cable is thin and was easy to hide and handle all the way. It works a treat. I used a ready made one and hid the slack but it would have been easy enough to make one. You have a choice of flat or round cable as well (I used flat).

to try to make sure that Goza wasn't using some ropey old RJ11 wire wink

In reply to a post by meditator:
The only remotely plausible reason I could come up with is that BT may be trying to maintain as uniform a 'transmission line' from the DSLAM as possible, so as to achieve the very best sync speed and reduce the number of retransmissions due to distortion s of the signal.

You might be right. Certainly it seems more important that the VDSL signal is split off before the telephony side enters any kind of star arrangement. It might not be important now, but it could be down the line with greater cable-fill and higher crosstalk levels.

Or it might just be to reduce the likelihood of future callouts - or at least to ensure you can be charged for such callouts.

In reply to a post by meditator:
I'm inclined to think, though, that the real reason for BT wanting to connect at the NTE5 rather than at an extension is that, if they do the latter, they cannot then guarantee the customer the complete integrity of the line, since the master socket will have now been shifted some way back down the line.

I'm not sure about that.

One of my lines is wired in an interesting way: the cable comes into the house, arrives at 1 socket, and then passes through the other sockets in a linear fashion (no stars). However, the *last* socket is the master.

The external BT line passes up through the sockets on a spare pair, then the internal signal passes back down through the same sockets on the normal 3/4/5 connectors. This was wired this way by a BT engineer when I first had ADSL installed, prior to there being a self-install option.

I'm not sure if Openreach engineers would still install a line in this way today. Certainly there's plenty of opportunity for me to much up the integrity of that line!

Edit: To clarify who shouldn't be using the ropey old RJ11 cable!

Edited by WWWombat (Wed 16-Mar-11 00:27:34)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Wed 16-Mar-11 00:50:16
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
The external BT line passes up through the sockets on a spare pair, then the internal signal passes back down through the same sockets on the normal 3/4/5 connectors...

I'm not sure if Openreach engineers would still install a line in this way today.

From the description here, I believe that's exactly what the Openreach engineer did!

JC
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 16-Mar-11 11:44:42
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
You make some good points in your response, Wombat.

I would agree that the home environment is a fairly noisy place, electrically speaking. It'll vary from household to household. But at least something can be done about the extension wiring if it isn't up to scratch, whereas the long length back to the cabinet will remain as is. Much of this country's underground suburban telephone cabling is more than 50 years old and is in a pretty bad way. Perhaps, for overhead cabling, to a lesser extent. It certainly is around here, anyway, and was of course put in the ground in the voice-only era, so crosstalk and interference weren't as critical then as they are today.

I wouldn't say that the outdoor environment is necessarily any cleaner than the indoor one, as underground cabling invariably passes by the electrical cables of successive street lamps, can run within just a few metres of massive buried local electricity supplies (as recently installed under the main road around here), and are subjected to constant electrical interference from vehicle ignition systems, mobile phone signals, radio and TV signals, civil works electrical gear, etc. The outdoor phone cabling will be affected to varying degrees by these.

My view is that if you use something like CW1308 indoors as the very minimum, and you lay out the run as linearly as possible, then it's not going to be any worse than that great length going out of the house back to the DSLAM. In terms of crosstalk at the user end, in fact, it should be a whole lot better.

Using an XTE-2005 plug-in at the NTE5, I myself will be running a length of Cat5e, about 12m worth, terminating in either an XTF85 or an RJ45 socket. The VDSL modem can then be plugged into that via the usual 1 metre patchlead. This extension, though carrying the FTTC signal, will have similar rejection performance to the Ethernet cabling on the output side of the modem (and between router and computer, if it's a 'wired' computer connection).

Whether or not the BT techie, when the day comes, will agree with this remains to be seen. If he/she doesn't, he/she will just have to install the modem by the master socket in my living room. My plan, however, is to organise a contingency extension, about which the BT techie should have no qualms at all. If I do that right, I'll not end up stuck with the modem in one place and all my computer stuff in another and no quick, neat and permanent means to get between the two.

I suspect a lot of subscribers will find themselves in a similar position as, years ago, the positioning of master sockets by BT in their homes may have been satisfactory then but will almost certainly be completely unsatisfactory now. So, for anyone with the requisite skill and tools, I'd advocate that they carefully plan their new in-home FTTC topology and install a ready-to-use unfiltered extension well in hand.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 17-Mar-11 09:25:21
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Re: Got FTTC? How is the master socket configured?


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
The external BT line passes up through the sockets on a spare pair, then the internal signal passes back down through the same sockets on the normal 3/4/5 connectors...

I'm not sure if Openreach engineers would still install a line in this way today.
From the description here, I believe that's exactly what the Openreach engineer did!

JC
Your link doesn't work for anyone in threaded mode, and a swap from there to Flat just takes you to the opening post of that thread. Might not even work in Flat mode if the reader's page settings are different from your.

You should always copy the "link to this post" in the header. The correct link is this smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
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