FTTC & FTTH

How easy will it be for BT to upgrade FTTC to FTTH at a later stage? Is it just a matter of putting in fibre from the cabinet to the home?

In theory extending the fibre should be feasible, and would make the cabinet based electronics obsolete.

FTTC is largely irrelevant to FTTH. The lady at BT in a top job said they won't be doing FTTP where they have done FTTC anyway.

That will leve BT at a major disadvantage then. The roolout of FTTC at the rate BT are going and you need to be looking at what the market will neeed several years ahead and not what is the minimum requirement today

if the interest saved (or made) on the cost of FTTH is avoided for several years the FTTC pays for itself nicely and you can do FTTH later when it suits you.

I'm sure her policy will change to reflect the market, or that of her successor will.

Any word on what will happen to the people who have not had their cabinet upgraded and are on an FTTC exchange?

Will they get FTTH?

I guess they'll see how far they can stretch it first, they are talking about releasing higher speed variants of Infinity up to 60,70, 80Mb, possibly beyond.

Is 40Mbps a minimum requirement now? I'd say not

Not today but probably tomorrow

There are plenty of examples of this sort of thing. It is not so long ago a 50GBb Hard drive was regarded as large and no one could envisage needing anything larger now 1Tb is the norm. Same with processors & memory

I don't think we can put this in the same category as storage. The best bet is to base it on the speed increases we've seen over the last decade.

Are there any applications in these super fast broadband countries we hear about all of the time with their 100Mb and Gig access that they are using that we can't because of our slow speeds?

I expect 40Mbps would do the majority of people for years to come, some will always want more sure, but this is about the UK as a whole.

Not aware of the exact wording but if memory serves me right, it did not preclude the possibility of an exchange area being a mixture of the technologies, e.g. the cabs one side of the river being FTTC, but the other part of town being FTTP.

Where I believe no mixing at all is expected is that users on a cabinet will not see a mix of options.

Define tomorrow?

If fibre is so important you can buy it today, though at £1000 per month it is not economical for me. If it dropped to sub £125 then it would be considered, at under £60 a month I would buy without a second thought.

Speaking to a Openreach Engineer the other day, he said that the next stage that they were looking at was FTTP

The Brownfield FTTP areas I believe are `Mixed Ecconomy' meaning bothe FTTC and FTTP , but not both to the same location.

FTTC uses point to point fibre and FTTH (as being used by Openreach) uses GPON architecture, so going from FTTC to GPON is basicalling another network overlay.

ECI announcement that they are now also providing BT with fttc included wording that their solution allows the cab to be used for both copper and fibre to home (suspect special cards for each). Of course in future BT could just turn the cabs into dumb jumper cabinets and gpon from there?

I should have book-marked it, (I must have thought it was easy to re-find), but I recently saw what I remember as an Openreach diagram showing FTTC versus FTTP layouts for an hypothetical housing estate.

The major point made was that the FTTC cabinets are not required under FTTP - completely alien in fact. As I remember it they couldn't even be re-used, or at least their contents couldn't.

Google isn't helping me at the moment .

FTTH is useless in a power cut - when you might want to make a 999 call.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

FTTH is useless in a power cut - when you might want to make a 999 call.

Better ditch the whole idea then.

I'm sure there has to be a mechanism to get round that problem, though I cxan't think what. In fact IIRC it has already been resolved on these forums.

[mischief] By the time FTTP becomes widespread in this country we will all have satellite-linked comms chips implanted in our brains and be able to talk to the emergency services at will. They will even call automatically if we lose conciousness, with our exact GPS location.[/mischief].

Ummm - remember this idea. You heard it here first! If you are alive in 20 years time you might have such an implant.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1378635
http://aceengineers.publishpath.com/Websites/aceengi...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

FTTH is useless in a power cut - when you might want to make a 999 call.

Better ditch the whole idea then.

I'm sure there has to be a mechanism to get round that problem, though I cxan't think what. In fact IIRC it has already been resolved on these forums.

[mischief] By the time FTTP becomes widespread in this country we will all have satellite-linked comms chips implanted in our brains and be able to talk to the emergency services at will. They will even call automatically if we lose conciousness, with our exact GPS location.[/mischief].

Ummm - remember this idea. You heard it here first! If you are alive in 20 years time you might have such an implant.

will we have flying cars before FTTP is mass spread?

http://www.trefor.net/2010/07/08/fttc-and-fttp-local...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Not aware of the exact wording but if memory serves me right, it did not preclude the possibility of an exchange area being a mixture of the technologies, e.g. the cabs one side of the river being FTTC, but the other part of town being FTTP.

Where I believe no mixing at all is expected is that users on a cabinet will not see a mix of options.

What about E/O lines? These will NEVER get FTTC, yet there has been no mention of this.

Generally they are already getting ADSL2+ at decent speeds, but in time they might see FTTP

Current roll-out is about passing as many homes as possible using a simple template, the infill and other things will come later once the basic model has been proven to sell.

Battery Backup (UPS) are available for issues like this

The FTTC have backup batteries for power cuts,

with FTTC / FTTH you still have a seperate phone line from you home to the exchage the fibre is just for internet traffic

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

The FTTC have backup batteries for power cuts,

with FTTC / FTTH you still have a seperate phone line from you home to the exchage the fibre is just for internet traffic

Uh uh!

FTTH does not have a separate non-fibre (ie copper) line for the phone. I believe the FTTH NTE incorporates a UPS just as an FTTC cabinet does.

Hows the phone work then?

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Hows the phone work then?

I suppose that if the brains at BT are really stumped, they could always ask the VOIP operators for a hint.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Hows the phone work then?

Ask your colleagues who work on Ebbsfleet, that's never had copper it uses a 135kbps VoIP channel on the NTE.

There is an ATA in the FTTP NTE (Analogue temination adaptor) you get an ordinary phone socket and an ethernet socket. Have to buy 2 GEA from Openreach. One for BB at 40, 100Mb or even 1g if you want to pay, One at 135Kb for the voice. Spec is on the Openreach site. Voice goes through the IP layer to a VOIP call control and would be on a seperate QOS enabled VLAN, small packet size, low latency, low loss, guaranteed B/W across the access and backhaul.

There is battery backup as well. Ask a Bradwell Abbey trialist for a picture!

I bet the feature set for the voice is different as some services are hard to do in the VOIP world, different ones may be far easier.

Otherwise you use voice over the BB and take your chance on contention with your own and others downloads. (Kids upstairs etc!)

FTTH does not use a copper line for voice, its voip.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Hows the phone work then?

Just like any other:-

1) Pick up the handset;
2) Either press the green button or key in the target number;
3) Do whichever option you didn't choose in Step 2.

Simples.

BT are still going to use copper for the phones for FTTH just as they do with FTTC

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

The FTTC have backup batteries for power cuts,

with FTTC / FTTH you still have a seperate phone line from you home to the exchage the fibre is just for internet traffic

Uh uh!

FTTH does not have a separate non-fibre (ie copper) line for the phone. I believe the FTTH NTE incorporates a UPS just as an FTTC cabinet does.

I commission the FTTC cabs and OLT's and soon FTTH OLT's and the coppger is still being used for phones.

I dont know the design of the NTE's but UPS on them no they will be the size of a netgear router

In greenfield development where FTTH is to be used I dont think there is any intention to provide copper as well as fibre.
In brownfield deployments of FTTH its down to the end user if they want a seperate copper line. One isnt packaged with FTTH

I commission the FTTC cabs and OLT's and soon FTTH OLT's and the coppger is still being used for phones.

Presumably thats in brownfield FTTH trial sites where there is existing copper?

I was a bit puzzled why them fibre droptubes have a copper pair in 'em. Perhaps it is just for fun?

Edited by deleted (Sun 17-Apr-11 20:57:55)

I would imagine that TalkTalk, Sky etc. will be hopping mad if they can't connect to their services at the exchange in a sort of unequivalent, straight on to the regulator kinda manner. How are Openreach getting around this in the voip world?

Edited by deleted (Sun 17-Apr-11 20:59:30)

Nope, trials are about to start (if they haven't already) with no copper at all, just fibre and voip

There IS an idea I have just thought for that powercut situation or a permanent solution:

BT 'could' in theory use the existing local loop as a low power grid, supplying the same voltage as they do now (around 50V DC) which you could use as a VOIP phone power supply.

Less maintenance would be required then

Edited by chris6273 (Sun 17-Apr-11 21:03:55)

What less maintenance would this new grid require? Does it go without the need for continuity and insulation resistance required for a traditional phoneline?

It wouldn't need a new grid. It would just use the old local loop.

Less maintenance: It wouldn't require as much maintenance because it would be as it is now but people wouldn't be able to complain about poor connections/errors because the voice frequencies would not be carried over them.

They would rent the 135Kb GEA from openreach, connect to their network at the Headend same as for Broadband and use their VOIP Callserver to control the call setup etc. They both seem to have Call controls that will do this already as they are using full MPF and routing the calls over a VOIP network already.

Openreach have built the equivelence in from the start at the access level.

In Theory anyone with a Voip Call server could do this and BB and Voice paths could be from different operators. We may see new Voice operators setting up as a basic call server is quite cheap.

It appears from the Openreach site that you could rent the 135Kb path for voice on the trial, but I haven't heard anybody on the Bradwell Abbey trial saying they are trialling the Voice over FTTP part yet.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-...

Prices at http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricin...

Appears you can get up to 2 voice 'channels'.

There is battery backup as well. Ask a Bradwell Abbey trialist for a picture!

Any Bradwell Abbey trialists watching? I am
intrigued to see a picture of how big the UPS is.

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

There is battery backup as well. Ask a Bradwell Abbey trialist for a picture!

Any Bradwell Abbey trialists watching? I am
intrigued to see a picture of how big the UPS is.

It's inside the ONT.

Be nice to see a picture of the whole setup.

UPS, Optical termination unit, NTE. Or is it all 1 box?

In reply to a post by chris6273:

It wouldn't need a new grid. It would just use the old local loop.

Less maintenance: It wouldn't require as much maintenance because it would be as it is now but people wouldn't be able to complain about poor connections/errors because the voice frequencies would not be carried over them.

Or Ofcom could get their heads out of their backsides and allow BT to do an out and out swap of copper for fibre. That's probably what BT are waiting for.

The ONTs have battery backup pretty much everywhere anyways.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

The FTTC have backup batteries for power cuts,

with FTTC / FTTH you still have a seperate phone line from you home to the exchage the fibre is just for internet traffic

Uh uh!

FTTH does not have a separate non-fibre (ie copper) line for the phone. I believe the FTTH NTE incorporates a UPS just as an FTTC cabinet does.

I commission the FTTC cabs and OLT's and soon FTTH OLT's and the coppger is still being used for phones.

I dont know the design of the NTE's but UPS on them no they will be the size of a netgear router

I agree with you where brownfield sites are concerned, as these are trialling the FTTP broadband technology. For example:-

"The situation in the property itself has changed a little since information
from the Ebbsfleet trial started. At this time since the fibre is an adjunct to
the copper network (which will remain in place) no battery back is provided,
and delivering the fibre into the property involves locating a network
termination box on the outside of the property, where the fibre from the
manifold will terminate, with up to 30m of fibre in a more rugged form that can
be situated anywhere in the property so long it is less than 30m from
termination box. At the end of this internal fibre cable, the fibre modem
requiring mains power will be located. This has an Ethernet port that can be
connected to an Ethernet router or direct to a computer. There are further
Ethernet ports that will be used for additional services as the product is
developed."

However the whole point of greenfield FTTH is that no copper network is involved. I can find Openreach references to this, but at the moment am having immense difficulty finding their document that shows the network topology they envisage, and also a picture of the NTE/OLT which includes a mini-UPS.

It looked fairly hideous, a curvy wall-mounted box with a couple of outlet sockets and a bit bigger, (so far as one could tell), than you say.

I shall keep looking for these, now and then. So I don't dispute what you say wrt what you are being trained for and what is being done in many places at the moment. But that is only broadband FTTP, not Broadband and phone FTTP.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Be nice to see a picture of the whole setup.

UPS, Optical termination unit, NTE. Or is it all 1 box?

See my reply to the Anon installer, a couple of minutes ago. It's wall-mounted like a phone socket, rectangular with the vertical considerably greater than the horizontal, bulges out (top to bottom) in the middle, and contains an OLT, (Optical Line Termination), instead of an NTE, plus a small UPS. The UPS can be small as it doesn't have to supply much voltage or current.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by chris6273:

It wouldn't need a new grid. It would just use the old local loop.

Less maintenance: It wouldn't require as much maintenance because it would be as it is now but people wouldn't be able to complain about poor connections/errors because the voice frequencies would not be carried over them.

Or Ofcom could get their heads out of their backsides and allow BT to do an out and out swap of copper for fibre. That's probably what BT are waiting for.

The ONTs have battery backup pretty much everywhere anyways.

I think that is what the new FTTP VoIP trial is about.

Hi,

These are a couple of pictures from one of our customers (router is a Netgear WNR3500):

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,9499...

I think there are a few more pictures knocking around the forum.

They aren't deploying the battery back up at the moment or doing the voice service over the fibre (FVA or Fibre Voice Access). The voice trial is expected later in the year at which point I expect they'll include the battery backup as the reason for the battery is to ensure the voice works in the event of a power failure rather than the broadband. At the moment all our customers continue to keep the voice service over the copper which also means we can keep the ADSL service active during the trial in case of problems with the fibre.

There are plans for a "Comms Cupboard" option which would be a wall mounted lockable cupboard containing the ONT and battery backup and all the wires/power which would have room for the router on top.

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by chris6273:

It wouldn't need a new grid. It would just use the old local loop.

Less maintenance: It wouldn't require as much maintenance because it would be as it is now but people wouldn't be able to complain about poor connections/errors because the voice frequencies would not be carried over them.

Or Ofcom could get their heads out of their backsides and allow BT to do an out and out swap of copper for fibre. That's probably what BT are waiting for.

The ONTs have battery backup pretty much everywhere anyways.

I think that is what the new FTTP VoIP trial is about.

It's not 'new' stuff per se, Ebbsfleet has always been all fibre so they know it works. 21CN is access network agnostic so it couldn't care less whether the call comes in as a 135kbps data stream already digitised or it has to be done on an MSAN it all goes to the same soft switch.

Thanks for that Dave.

Yes, you can tell there is no back up there. It may not need much power, but I would still expect a significant size increase to accommodate one (or am I drastically behind the times?).

On a separate note, is there an option to have my external connection unit fitted with a spirit level?

I wonder why they don't just hand over the responsibility of backup power to the customer. I mean, in the event of a power cut you can use your mobile (if the mast is still powered) but its up to the customer to ensure the mobile is charged, why not the same here.

I mean.. I wonder how many people these days use just cordless handsets that don't put in batts to cover a power cut?

I mean.. I wonder how many people these days use just cordless handsets that don't put in batts to cover a power cut?

Good point. Includes my household.

why are people thinking FTTH / FTTC are using VOIP? When I started on the project I thought they where doing away with copper as well but they are not sounds stupid not to use VOIP I know but it's all down to costs at the moment. BT has spent alot of money upgrading to 21CN so I do.nt think copper will disappear yet

FTTC and FTTH is using Huawei and ECI equipment there are a few Power Point Presentaions about the NTE's I'll try and find them

I'll ask about FTTH and copper for the phones when I'm back in work

Copper is just one (old) element of 21CN, no-one is saying they are getting rid of it yet, they are running trials without it, makes no sense to put copper and fibre into new builds and where FTTP goes in if the customer wants to loose the copper that should also be an option

I expect there is no decision as yet, that is what the trials are for

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

I was a bit puzzled why them fibre droptubes have a copper pair in 'em. Perhaps it is just for fun?

The copper pair is for communication between the installers of the cables

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

I mean.. I wonder how many people these days use just cordless handsets that don't put in batts to cover a power cut?

My cordless base station runs off the UPS

Though I do have an "ordinary" phone as well that I can plug in if necessary.

I saw a battery backup unit before the trial started, it was about the same size as one of the Netgear routers we use.

As for the spirit level, I don't know whether Openreach carry them but will ask

In reply to a post by DaveTomlinson:

As for the spirit level, I don't know whether Openreach carry them but will ask

It doesn't look like it judging by the photo

Bet the tilt helps the rain run off though!



kitkat

I've checked with Openreach and apparently they do have spirit levels so they can do a neat job. They have offered to send someone out to send someone out if the customer wants anything changing.

Bet the tilt helps the rain run off though!

Lol! They'll be boasting about their drip loops next!