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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Wed 29-Feb-12 15:29:40
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
What are DLM consequences short term and longer relating to my line.? Is BT flexible enough to make the profile go up if after a while? Or does this set me in stone?
Standard User smurf46
(member) Wed 29-Feb-12 16:10:00
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by asbokid:
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
unsure of is which Annex to use for BT VDSL2 A or B


ITU-T G.993.2 Annex A defines the VDSL2 bandplan and PSD mask specs for Region A (North America)
ITU-T G.993.2 Annex B defines the VDSL2 bandplan and PSD mask specs for Region B (Europe including Blighty)

See p.202 onwards in http://www.home.surewest.net/hyoung/T-REC-G.993.2-20...


Just a query: are you sure?The document says:
Annex B
Region B (Europe)1
B.1 Band plans
Two different band plans are defined in this annex. These are based on ITU-T Rec. G.993.1
band plans A and B, also previously known as plan 998 and plan 997, respectively.

BT I understood use bandplan 998. Annex A on the Fritz is what I have always been told to use (as I believe it equates to Band Plan A), along with many others, and is the default in models supplied for the UK market. It also gives me higher speeds, though not by much.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin
Standard User smurf46
(member) Wed 29-Feb-12 16:30:34
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
What are DLM consequences short term and longer relating to my line.? Is BT flexible enough to make the profile go up if after a while? Or does this set me in stone?


I've played around quite a lot in the early days with my Fritz! with between 8 and 12 reboots a month, and the IP profile has steadily risen up to 38.71Mbps around the max on a 40Mbps service at a 20 attn in my case, having started off at 33867 when I was transferred to the current 17a profile. If you look at maximum atttainable speed (or maximum DSLAM throughput if lower) shown on the Fritz! DSL Stats (in Expert View) then the best speed I've had shown by the tester is 5% below that, which might give you a clue to what your connection could be capable of at best. (The attainable too can rise over time, but it was within 1-2 weeks of connection by up to 20% in my case).

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin


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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Wed 29-Feb-12 18:24:31
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
What are DLM consequences short term and longer relating to my line.? Is BT flexible enough to make the profile go up if after a while? Or does this set me in stone?


I've played around quite a lot in the early days with my Fritz! with between 8 and 12 reboots a month, and the IP profile has steadily risen up to 38.71Mbps around the max on a 40Mbps service at a 20 attn in my case, having started off at 33867 when I was transferred to the current 17a profile. If you look at maximum atttainable speed (or maximum DSLAM throughput if lower) shown on the Fritz! DSL Stats (in Expert View) then the best speed I've had shown by the tester is 5% below that, which might give you a clue to what your connection could be capable of at best. (The attainable too can rise over time, but it was within 1-2 weeks of connection by up to 20% in my case).

thank you your post gives me hope that a bit of messing about has not cost me long term but the next 10 days will be telling just thought I would post this to give an idea that I am connected ok now but i am unsure of what the resyncs by me may have done to my assigned profile over time:

Max Dslam 40000/10000
Attainable 66966/20656
Current throuput 39976/10000
Snr 14/13
Attenuation 15

I know this is good but I just don't know what BT will do to my speed/profile long term as I have already for example gone for a 68### to the 66966 from my resyncs and also my speed has been no higher than 32 meg / 6 meg ( on 38.7 profile according to BT tester which is all over the place speed wise in the beta anywhere from 30-5 meg....??.)from various tests but i do realise I am still training but it's nice to hear your perspective and hope I have a nice stable quick line....as far as annex a or b I just need to leave my connection for now and will ask more about it in the next few days as I am not really clear what is better if either are as the worked nearly the same and had same speeds...

Lastly one curiosity I do have is when when I do a resyncs and when I was trying the BT modem originally I get PPPoE error time out during the fritz resyncs both during the swap to annex b and back to annex a and seems like my FB is trying but failing to sync with the exchange both as a router and modem now...I am using IPv4 not 6 at the mo

Many thanks for all the input

Kirk
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Wed 29-Feb-12 21:30:38
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
FWIW, from my graphs from the HG612 modem, I have seen that Attainable Rates rise & fall, more or less in line with SNRM values at different times of day, 2:00pm being typically the highest levels.
Standard User asbokid
(regular) Wed 29-Feb-12 22:39:42
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Definitely use Annex B for the VDSL2 service provided by BT Openreach in the U.K.

The following data is from an unlocked but otherwise default Huawei HG612, installed by BT Openreach..

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
Welcome Visiting Huawei  Home Gateway
Copyright by Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.Login:admin
Password: 
ATP>shBusyBox v1.9.1 (2010-10-15 17:59:06 CST) built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands. 
# xdslcmd info --statsxdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 6094 Kbps, Downstream rate = 24660 KbpsPath:   0, Upstream rate = 1997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20054 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B         <===============
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 8cTPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ONLine Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime....


We can discover which of the Annex B band plans is being used from the carrier set reported by the Huawei..

Again from the Huawei xdsl driver layer tool:

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
12
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2Max:    Upstream rate = 6074 Kbps, Downstream rate = 24648 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 1997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20054 KbpsDiscovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (696,1183)   DS: (32,687) (1192,1627)
Medley Phase (Final) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (696,1183)                         <===============
DS: (32,687) (1192,1627)                      <===============


Carrier spacing is 4.3125kHz..

Huawei HG612:
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 696 x 4.3125 = 3.00 MHz
f3 = 1183 x 4.3125 = 5.10 MHz
f4 = 1627 x 4.3125 = 7.05 MHz

We can see from Table B.1/G.993.2 Band Plans on page 206 of [1] for VDSL2 Annex B (Europe) that the Huawei is using the first variant of the A/997 band plan for Annex B:

Annex B - Band Plan A/997 - Variant #1
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 696 x 4.3125 = 3.00 MHz
f3 = 1183 x 4.3125 = 5.10 MHz
f4 = 1627 x 4.3125 = 7.05 MHz

To clarify, we can also compare the band-edge frequencies reported by the Huawei (138kHz, 3.00MHz, 5.10MHz, 7.05Mhz) with the Fig. A.1/G.993.2 Band Plan for Annex A (North America) on page 202/3 of [1]:

Annex A:
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 870 x 4.3125 = 3.75 MHz
f3 = 1205 x 4.3125 = 5.20 MHz
f4 = 1971 x 4.3125 = 8.50 MHz

This illustrates that VDSL2 G993.2 Annex A (North America) is not compatible with the Annex B VDSL2 service currently provided by BT Openreach.

cheers, a

[1] http://www.home.surewest.net/hyoung/T-REC-G.993.2-20...
[2] http://www.docin.com/p-124763824.html
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 01-Mar-12 12:10:29
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by asbokid:
Definitely use Annex B for the VDSL2 service provided by BT Openreach in the U.K.

The following data is from an unlocked but otherwise default Huawei HG612, installed by BT Openreach..

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
Welcome Visiting Huawei  Home Gateway
Copyright by Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.Login:admin
Password: 
ATP>shBusyBox v1.9.1 (2010-10-15 17:59:06 CST) built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands. 
# xdslcmd info --statsxdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 6094 Kbps, Downstream rate = 24660 KbpsPath:   0, Upstream rate = 1997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20054 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B         <===============
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 8cTPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ONLine Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime....


We can discover which of the Annex B band plans is being used from the carrier set reported by the Huawei..

Again from the Huawei xdsl driver layer tool:

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
12
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2Max:    Upstream rate = 6074 Kbps, Downstream rate = 24648 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 1997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20054 KbpsDiscovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (696,1183)   DS: (32,687) (1192,1627)
Medley Phase (Final) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (696,1183)                         <===============
DS: (32,687) (1192,1627)                      <===============


Carrier spacing is 4.3125kHz..

Huawei HG612:
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 696 x 4.3125 = 3.00 MHz
f3 = 1183 x 4.3125 = 5.10 MHz
f4 = 1627 x 4.3125 = 7.05 MHz

We can see from Table B.1/G.993.2 Band Plans on page 206 of [1] for VDSL2 Annex B (Europe) that the Huawei is using the first variant of the A/997 band plan for Annex B:

Annex B - Band Plan A/997 - Variant #1
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 696 x 4.3125 = 3.00 MHz
f3 = 1183 x 4.3125 = 5.10 MHz
f4 = 1627 x 4.3125 = 7.05 MHz

To clarify, we can also compare the band-edge frequencies reported by the Huawei (138kHz, 3.00MHz, 5.10MHz, 7.05Mhz) with the Fig. A.1/G.993.2 Band Plan for Annex A (North America) on page 202/3 of [1]:

Annex A:
f1 = 32 x 4.3125 = 138 kHz
f2 = 870 x 4.3125 = 3.75 MHz
f3 = 1205 x 4.3125 = 5.20 MHz
f4 = 1971 x 4.3125 = 8.50 MHz

This illustrates that VDSL2 G993.2 Annex A (North America) is not compatible with the Annex B VDSL2 service currently provided by BT Openreach.

cheers, a

[1] http://www.home.surewest.net/hyoung/T-REC-G.993.2-20...
[2] http://www.docin.com/p-124763824.html


Ok I get the fact that your saying annex a is not correct but then how is my Fritzbox able to work and not have any issues of note that I can see? Don't get me wrong I wil happily swap to annex b but as I am in training phase and have had to many resyncs done by me not the router/modem then I am warry to keep causing more resyncs by swapping and some have mentioned annex a works for them on the Fritzbox without issues so I am not clear what is worse leaving it in annex a or Perform yet another resync to get annex b on....if someone has left annex a on through training and it did no harm please enlighten me as if I am told you had a major issue due to annex a then I would force the resync but not unless I know it's actually doing my line training harm....interestingly enough a Australian forum called whirlpool has a section on the fritzbox and uk connections and they to are debating annex a or b because one person hacked the bt open reach modem and said its in b BUT running like its in annex a so I am truly confused so if someone with a fritzbox could pass on knowledge about a/b and the impact of leaving it in a it would be great. If I am made aware that the long term impact on my training is worse to leave it in annex a than to perform yet another resync I might swap it but if it's a minimal issue during training then I suppose it's best to let the line settle in now rather than risk another resync and kill my line training which is already on shaky ground due to my other resyncs i did during wire swaps and just being blasť about it after an engineer said I could power stuff on and off no probs in infinity....

Anyhow Thanks will see what advice I get and make a choice soon enough
Kirk
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 01-Mar-12 13:31:09
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Well swapped to annex b against all my instinct to leave line train so yet another re sync and my attainable rate dropped from an original 68### to last set below with current after annex b swap

Max Dslam 40000/10000 now SAME
Attainable 66966/20656 now 65376/20630
Current throuput 39976/10000 now SAME
Snr 14/13 now SAME
Attenuation 15 now SAME

Still getting around 31-32 down meg and 5-6 up roughly so it's nearly same but Carrier record now shows B43 not A?? ( forgot numbers) as before so hope this is a good thing

As usually still kicking out some errors as before so here's hoping this does not fubar my training for good wish me luck BT does no slam my line after the training period is up in 7-8 days time

Kirk
Standard User smurf46
(member) Thu 01-Mar-12 14:28:14
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
askobid: if I understand you correctly you say that BT also use Band Plan 997 with the current profile 17a.

I believe that the Fritz! Annex A and Annex B are both VDSL2 (Europe) Annex B but refer respectively to (quoting the document)
"Region B (Europe)1
B.1 Band plans
Two different band plans are defined in this annex. These are based on ITU-T Rec. G.993.1
band plans A and B, also previously known as plan 998 and plan 997, respectively."

So I understand you to be saying that the use of what the Fritz! refers to as Annex B (which should be Annex B Plan B) is because BT use band plan 997. I am confused since you appear to say that Annex B Plan A is the same as band plan 997, so is the above quote from the document wrong?

I ask because that was not previously my understanding.

In practice I think that either setting seems able to work almost as well in the UK for those on shorter lines with higher attainable speeds, but for me with a longer line to the cabinet the Fritz!'s "Annex A" (properly bandplan 998 or Annex B Plan A, according to the document) seems to offer slightly better speeds and be subject to less errors.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 01-Mar-12 14:43:25)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 01-Mar-12 14:52:41
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Re: How to get a Fritz!Box 7390 working as a VDSL modem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Anyone with th FB 7390 do you all get PPPoE timeout errors when you first try to resync as whenever I tell FB to resync due to a change in settings like going from annex a to b it conne ts but takes 2 timeout errors before I get ip/ dns/ gateway info and this strange string:

Pop:bras-red2.gi-b-B222400702037

in the system/ Internet connection menus of FB any idea if this is normal, don't know if it's due to using IPv4 not 6... Or is some setting not quiet right that someone has experienced ?

Smurf if you could just clarify you did mess with resyncs during training so you think that the speed will rebound if in the event BT does lower my line speed... hope this annex b/ a stuff works outsmile
Cheers
Kirk
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