Self Install Coming soon?

Just found this online regarding new stuff being delivered by Openreach due 7th June.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefin...

One bt of interest is the section ORC2M-8374

GEA-FTTC: PCP only install - offer CPs the option to order a PCP-only provide. This enables customers to offer self-install or accredited engineer install products to their end users.

may be of interest to some!

Self install? It will still require a technician visit to the cabinet and that would need to be meshed with the premises install. Plus the technician cannot test the circuit until the modem is installed so what can be gained?

In reply to a post by MHC:

Self install? It will still require a technician visit to the cabinet and that would need to be meshed with the premises install. Plus the technician cannot test the circuit until the modem is installed so what can be gained?

As my engineer said yesterday, he didnt want to leave the premises once the modem was installed,without me up and running. Even though he could have left me to set up my own router.

And that is the way it should stay for now in my opinion.


.

mrnelster,

I have to say, the engineer you got and who I had pleasure speaking to was nothing short of excellent. I'm fairly open minded wth engineers, but I could tell quickly we were talking from same page, with the odd joke thrown into the banter. Top Marks!

Your really are lucky, I have spoken to some who sadly see sync and leave without the customer making sure all is OK, but others who think Infinity is the only product out there with ourselves telling them how to do a manual install :/

Why do we allow companies to stamp all over the language?

> PCP-only provide.

PCP-only provision.

> self-install or accredited engineer install

Self-installation or accredited engineer installation.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Why do we allow companies to stamp all over the language?

> PCP-only provide.

PCP-only provision.

> self-install or accredited engineer install

Self-installation or accredited engineer installation.

I just taxed my car via the DVLA website.

It says this site allows you to tax or SORN your vehicle. (Their capitals)

As many will know, a SORN is a Statutory Off-Road Notification.

I think that beats your examples .

Sadly it's not a quite a self install wires only option, you still have to use the BT modem. I asked exactly the same question last week and got this answer:

"There are no immediate plans but Openreach are committed to working with CPs on it. What people may be getting confused with is a PCP Only trial that OR are planning. This enables Accredited CP Engineer install; but using Openreach supplied SSFP+Modem and NOT (for now anyway) a Wires Only device."

Or you just throw the Openreach Modem in the bin once the engineer has left and use your own. Will be interesting to see what happens if there is a fault on the line and if OR can tell that it's a different vendor hanging off the wires. I have not had any end-user documentation telling me that I HAVE to use that Huawei monstrosity...

I can't locate a document specifically for FTTC, but I think you'll find that the service demarcation boundary is the Ethernet port on the modem.

So if an engineer comes to investigate a fault and finds that you're using your own modem he'll probably walk away and BT will send you a big fat bill.

As for the modem itself... seems a perfectly competent little unit to me, I've had no trouble with it. It would be nice to be able to see the line stats, but I can't do anything about them and my curiosity doesn't extend to spending a couple of hundred quid for my own kit.

Well, since I needed a router anyway, I bought one with a VDSL modem, of which there are a few now. So at the very least, my wall cupboard is now half as messy as it was before. I will obviously plug the OR modem back in before an engineer shows up, but I do find it intriguing that everyone talks about how important it is to use that modem, yet me as Mr. End-User would have no clue about that - it's just a modem, and there still is a wall socket, so why should I treat this differently than the modem I bought off PC World for my ADSL connection?

I'm exaggerating, but it seems that OR are trying to pass this off as rocket science (with their engineer visit, "special" faceplate, "special" modem), yet what they communicate to the end user beyond that in terms of actual T&Cs is very vague...

In reply to a post by Quark999:

but it seems that OR are trying to pass this off as rocket science

I'd venture to suggest that to the bulk of customers switching to fibre (come to that, those with any sort of broadband connection) it's exactly that!

You only have to look at some of the queries raised on here, and the speeds achieved on the tbb broadband maps to realise that the this site does not present a typical cross-section of the BB-using public.

I'd guess that BT may loosen up the equipment requirements in time (as they appear to be proposing for installation in the near future), but I can quite understand their strictness in the early stages of a rollout of a new(ish) technology.

VDSL2 is an age-old and tested technology that has been used around the world for years - it is not really any different than ADSL, at least not from the end-user end.

But I don't really mind that they are trying to keep that much control over it initially (even though a bit more truth and a bit less snake-oil wouldn't go amiss), my issue is that I'm supposed to be using that OR modem, yet nobody tells me that. Just because Dabs doesn't sell them doesn't mean that they're not out there - so they should either make it clear that the demarkation point is the ethernet port on the modem, or let people use their own equipment. This is the snake-oil I was referring to - because other VDSL2 modems aren't available on the UK high street yet, that somehow *implies* I'm not allowed to use them?

In reply to a post by Quark999:

VDSL2 is an age-old and tested technology that has been used around the world for years

That's why I said "new(ish)"- it's new to BT as a consumer product.

I didn't think it necessary (more accurately- cba'd ) to spell it out in detail

That's why I said "new(ish)"- it's new to BT as a consumer product.

I didn't think it necessary (more accurately- cba'd ) to spell it out in detail

Doesn't answer whether I can't or can use a different modem

In reply to a post by DaveTomlinson:

Sadly it's not a quite a self install wires only option, you still have to use the BT modem. I asked exactly the same question last week and got this answer:

"There are no immediate plans but Openreach are committed to working with CPs on it. What people may be getting confused with is a PCP Only trial that OR are planning. This enables Accredited CP Engineer install; but using Openreach supplied SSFP+Modem and NOT (for now anyway) a Wires Only device."

I know off topic but any details you can glean on bt cabinet 1 on bradwell Abbey?? I.e. If/when fibre provisioned??

Thanks

In reply to a post by Quark999:

That's why I said "new(ish)"- it's new to BT as a consumer product.

I didn't think it necessary (more accurately- cba'd ) to spell it out in detail

Doesn't answer whether I can't or can use a different modem

Its no different to what Virgin do with their service? You can only use the supplied modem or now their super duper hub.

Ask BT whether you are allowed to use your own modem, horses mouth 'n' all that. I doubt its the case though

Since I'm not with BT but still had an Openreach install, surely there must be *Openreach* documentation for that, which isn't accessible to me as the end user. So apart from the fact that all the other ISPs are responsible for not communicating properly either - what is the official line?

In reply to a post by Quark999:

Just because Dabs doesn't sell them doesn't mean that they're not out there

Dabs belongs to BT, that may be why they don't sell them.

That was a tongue-in-cheek example, of course their out there, I've been using my Fritz!Box happily. But the question whether that's in line with the the TOCs or not is still out there...

In reply to a post by Quark999:

Since I'm not with BT but still had an Openreach install, surely there must be *Openreach* documentation for that, which isn't accessible to me as the end user. So apart from the fact that all the other ISPs are responsible for not communicating properly either - what is the official line?

The diagram on page 6 might be of use:

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/llu/su...

(PDF)

Interesting - does any provider actual feed this on to the customer (BT included)? After all, the previous demarcation line was the NTE...

In reply to a post by Quark999:

Interesting - does any provider actual feed this on to the customer (BT included)?

I don't know, but they probably would (or at least provide the same link) if you asked.

After all, the previous demarcation line was the NTE...

Did BT provide you with paperwork to that effect when you bought/took over the line?

(Genuine question btw, I don't think they did for me but it was a long time ago!)

That is a very good point, I am pretty sure I remember at least one of the OR saying something along the lines of "everything after this box is yours" (I've had four or five new BT line provisions in the last five years), but I'm pretty sure I never received anything in writing.
So, in essence both the assumption that the modem SHOULDN'T be touched as well as the assumption that everything after the NTE COULD be touched isn't really formalised for an end-user. I assume at least the latter is publicly available somewhere on the OR/BT websites, as this has been accepted knowledge for too long...

AFAIK, ownership by BT/OR of everything behind the NTE is enshrined in law under some telecomms act or other (could be wrong), so getting caught fiddling with it would come under the heading of "ignorance is no excuse"

No idea how, or even if, that translates to a VDSL2 modem on the customer's side... and I'd also add that a BT/OR engineer wouldn't be my first choice for a complete and accurate description of the legal position

Must be someone on here who can give us chapter and verse, it would be interesting to know.

These are the BT Terms and Conditions for Residential service that I could find: http://www2.bt.com/static/i/btretail/panretail/terms...

This is the only information (in "plain English") that I could find:
"If you want to connect equipment to our network other than by using a BT main phone socket, you must get our permission."

Which I guess is the non-technical verbiage for "anything in front of the NTE is ours", although this in "plain English" IMHO makes it even more cryptic.

Now we just need to find something like that in the Infinity and/or other terms of conditions - I'm not sure whether it exists...

Your signature translates as "culled out the bull, the brain overcomes the" using Google translator from Latin.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-...

Shows the product boundary

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-...

Shows the product boundary

But the point being argued is that Openreach documents such as that are totally irrelevant to 99.9% of users, who may quite legitimately expect that they can replace the VDSL2 modem.

It's like saying everyone with a house should be aware of the latest Building Standards when doing a DIY job of any kind, and also be fully aware of the minutiae of H & S legislation, or know what Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations apply to their fitting a pretty steering-wheel glove, or a different type of headlamp bulb from the original equipment.

Of course, the police could prosecute everyone driving along at night or even in the daytime with their fog-lamps on in clear weather. Or parking on the wrong side of the road at night, with headlights on.

There are 2 new Bradwell Abbey coming shortly (can't remember the numbers but not number 1), I've not heard of any others being done. I believe the extra 2 are so they can trial FTTP in flats/office blocks. No sign of FTTC being deployed to in-fill the missing areas yet.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It's like saying everyone with a house should be aware of the latest Building Standards when doing a DIY job of any kind, and also be fully aware of the minutiae of H & S legislation, or know what Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations apply to their fitting a pretty steering-wheel glove, or a different type of headlamp bulb from the original equipment.

The law says that if they intend to make any changes, they should, and it's well-established that ignorance is no excuse.

Of course, the police could prosecute everyone driving along at night or even in the daytime with their fog-lamps on in clear weather. Or parking on the wrong side of the road at night, with headlights on.

It's been known.

Openreach will shortly (if they aren't already) be using 2 suppliers for FTTC. They will match the modem to the chipset in the DSLAM. There are no guarantees a modem from another vendor will work. We tried a D-Link VDSL2 router on a line and their tech bods couldn't get it to connect (think it was in sync but wouldn't auth). The Thomson TG789vn worked but took some fiddling. It was a line that had a long standing fault and Openreach knew we'd replaced their modem without us telling them and were arranging to put a packet sniffer on the line to find out what we were doing.

Had we sent an engineer out with the Thomson connected to the line they would've refused to do anything and just charge for the visit.

I can't really see how we can stop people from using their own VDSL routers and replacing the BT modem other than saying you shouldn't do it and if you do you it may not work and you potentially won't be able to get support from Openreach in the event of a fault (or will have to pay).

I gathered the fact u still needed the OR modem, so I wold assume a "self install" would be like the old BTOpenworld ADSL when self install you had a stingray/frog modem being sent to you with a filter before activation date. I would assume similar with FTTC with the OR modem with either a soap on rope filter or faceplace being dispatched to you. You would then be given a date when the OR Engineer would go out to cab and make the switch. You would just plug in the equipment on that date.

But since this is about a CONTRACT between a service provider and a customer, ignorance IS an excuse when it comes to arbitrary T&Cs by an upstream party - I have yet to see ANY customer-facing terms and conditions by ANY service provider (BT or otherwise) that covers this. The closest are the phone line T&Cs by BT, and they merely state that anything before the master socket is not to be tampered with.

Nothing about VDSL modems anywhere - but I stand to be corrected. It would be interesting to challenge this if OR send out an engineer and then decides to ask for money. And in fact, it would be the third-party provider having to ask for that back, wouldn't it?

Considering VDSL2 should be a standard, the modem shouldn't make a difference - but I know it sometimes does in practice (see the U-R2 "standard" for ADSL and others). Still, I can't help but think that this sounds more like the VLAN problem with PPPoE than anything else... VLAN 101 does not seem to be widely publicised, maybe to deter people from using other modems or for future functionality (VOIP or BT Vision come to mind)...