New Exchanges Announced

Apparently another 66 exchanges have been announced as being part of the FTTC/P roll-out:
http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/where-and-when/

And still there is nothing south west of Glasgow as far as FTTC is concerned. Is this due to the lack of fibre connections from Glasgow to the likes of Kilmarnock and Ayr rather than an unwillingness to lay fibre in these towns?

12 of these make it into 2011 plans, the rest in 2012. 12 of those in the 2012 plans are marked as "FTTC/P".

Blimey, it makes grim reading if you live in Scotland/Wales, By the end of 2012 the breakdown of exchanges converted for FTTC will be:

Wales 22
Scotland 37
Northern Ireland 103
England 825

Anyone knowhow many exchanges there currently are in each country?

The only reason we have so many in N.ireland was from government funding.

The city i live in has 100% coverage due for 30th June, all 100+ cabinets are done.

Just realised I wasn't logged in - wondered why I was being asked to jump through catchpa hoop thing ...

Anyway, found out the number of exchanges in each country on Samknows and it makes grim reading for Scotland. By the end of 2012 the breadown of converted FTTC exchanges will be:

Scotland 3.36%
Wales 5.08%
England 21.16%
NI 53.93%

By the end of 2012 there will still be NO exchanges south of Glasgow converted to FTTC.

I know N.Ireland has less than 200 but we're the FTTC kings at the moment.

Rough memory/estimates for others

Wales somewhere around 400
Scotland closer to 1000
England 3000 (?)

In reply to a post by killie99:

Just realised I wasn't logged in - wondered why I was being asked to jump through catchpa hoop thing ...

Anyway, found out the number of exchanges in each country on Samknows and it makes grim reading for Scotland. By the end of 2012 the breadown of converted FTTC exchanges will be:

Scotland 3.36%
Wales 5.08%
England 21.16%
NI 53.93%

By the end of 2012 there will still be NO exchanges south of Glasgow converted to FTTC.

its grim in england as well, most of TBB seems to be on a exchange thats planned which doesnt reflect the actual situation as 3/4 of BT network still has no FTTC planned.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

And still there is nothing south west of Glasgow as far as FTTC is concerned. Is this due to the lack of fibre connections from Glasgow to the likes of Kilmarnock and Ayr rather than an unwillingness to lay fibre in these towns?

Probably that coupled with the fact many towns south of Glasgow (excluding the obvious ones - Dumfries, Ayr, Hamilton) have populations well below 40,000 (the three I mention still don't top 50,000).
It follows most exchanges will serve very rural communities meaning BT is unlikely to get a financial return for their investment.
This is also the case in many parts of England and most of Wales and NI.

Rural parts of England, Scotland, Wales and NI will need government subsidies to fund a fibre roll-out.
This is what happened in NI.
For England this is unlikely to happen on a wide scale.
Scotland & Wales get a pot of money from central government (and I guess it will upset many that 'central' means 'in London' ) and can spend it how they wish.
Wales chooses to go for free prescriptions (the English have to pay for theirs) and Scotland does the same (along with free crossings on ex-toll bridges, etc.)

Face facts; there's only a limited amount of money to go round, BT are unlikely to dip into their own pockets to roll-out fibre from exchanges they'll likely never see a return/profit and the Scottish government seems to favour free prescriptions and free travel across various toll bridges.
I guess those in Scotland who'd rather have fibre broadband in small rural communities (or in large towns where the nearest other large town is 50+ miles away) could petition their MP?

In reply to a post by killie99:

By the end of 2012 there will still be NO exchanges south of Glasgow converted to FTTC.

I'm not really surprised - I can only remember three towns south of Glasgow (and one's only just south of Glasgow) which have populations approaching 50,000.

I live in a similar size town (to Hamilton, Ayr and Dumfries) and we'll have fibre (if all goes to plan and we don't get a fourth or fifth delay) by the end of September, and we're a lot closer to other large (and larger) population centres than most of south-west Scotland and the Borders.
Within a 40 mile radius we have probably 6 to 10 towns with populations between 20,000 & 50,000; two have 100,000; another has 150,000; two with populations around 200,000; one with 300,000 and one is over a million!
It's still taken this long for us to get fibre (and we're in a very heavily populated area) so the chances for Scotland (outside the big places like Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Stirling & Dundee) look grim - as you say.

Time to talk with your MP?

No change of FTTx in a place which is sub-5000 in population then.

I don't even want FTTx. It would require outlay on my part for kit, a learning curve of said kit (very familiar with the current kit) and would cost more monthly. I want ADSL2+ for no added cost, no added learning curve and little or no work involved for the exchange folk. 12-13 Meg would be fine, and an upload of 700K would also do nicely for the next few years.

That's not being greedy. Just asking for a level playing field.

In reply to a post by adebov:

Time to talk with your MP?

I would, but he's Labour, and not only is there a language barrier (Labour speak), he's on another planet. Scary looking too.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

No change of FTTx in a place which is sub-5000 in population then.

If it's close enough to other high population centres or has an affluent population (where the take-up is likely to be quite high) I'd say your chances are good.
If your sub-5000 town is stuck out (on its own) in the middle of nowhere, I'd say you've more chance of flying

I'm away of many towns at (or just above) that level of population which have FTTc enablement dates ahead of ours (and our exchange serves just shy of 20,000 domestic lines).
Business lines seem irrelevant as OR seem not to be doing cabs in industrial or business districts (probably to stop loads of companies ditching their very expensive leased lines - ours costs us probably 20x the cost of a FTTc vDSL connection and is significantly slower).

I tend to agree with you on ADSL2+.
The least BT can do (with all the exchange equipment which will be sitting idle once FTTc take-up increases) is to stick that equipment into the small exchanges and switch on ADSL2+ for you guys.
Actually the 'least they can do' is nothing and suspect that's what they'll do!

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I would, but he's Labour

What? A Labour MP in Scotland....are you sure? They're getting as rare as Welsh Tory MPs these days!

Just over 3000 premises with 2.5% being commercial (of that, only one or two non-retail ones).

Not particularly affluent. Some nice areas, some not so nice. 5-10 miles from three bigger places; 9K pop, 35K pop, and 48K pop. None of those are in the pipeline.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Just over 3000 premises with 2.5% being commercial (of that, only one or two non-retail ones).

Not particularly affluent. Some nice areas, some not so nice. 5-10 miles from three bigger places; 9K pop, 35K pop, and 48K pop. None of those are in the pipeline.

I'd say we're unlikely to see the next couple of years go past without most exchanges serving those sorts of populations (35k & 48k) being enabled for FTTc, mainly because OR will run out of things to do in a year or so!

Remember we're still in the early stages of a roll-out (albeit one which is running significantly faster than the original ADSL1 roll-out).
How long [after the first batch of proper - i.e. non-trial exchanges] did you have to wait, after 2000/2001 for ADSL1? That may give an indication how far you are down the 'it doesn't matter, it's only Scotland" priority list .

For English rural areas, you are right - some funding will need to step in.

The government had started trials in some places (started == making funds available), and I recall north Yorkshire bing one such place.

But other places see the advantage of not waiting for central government funds. Surrey is aiming for 100% coverage, and is being organised at the County level. I'm sure they'll try to chase central funcing, but they're well aware of the problems they always have at getting any central funding for anything.

I also checked the population figures. They're roughly in the proportions of 100:10:6:4 for England:Scotland:Wales:NI. All other things being equal, you'd expect cabinets to be being enabled in those proportions too, and exchanges in roughly similar proportions.

But all other things aren't equal, obviously.

We already know that BT say they will get fibre out to 67% in the current plans. And we know that 20% are classified as market 1 and market 2 - so it seems likely that almost all market 1 & 2 exchanges will not get covered - and another 13% of the "worst"/smallest market 3 exchanges.

But what size of town/exchange are we down to, when we hit the new have/have-not border? Ofcom's definition of Market 1 used to include 10,000 premises - which I reckon to match a population of 18-20,000. My rough guess says that the border between fibre and not will be exchanges/towns a little smaller - say around 6,000 lines, or populations of 10,000.

I have already contacted my MP and my MSP. My MSP is the convenor of the cross party group on Digital Participation so you never know, maybe he'll manage to do something.

The main population centres in Ayrshire are:

Kilmarnock (45,000)
Ayr (46,000)
Irvine (40,000)
Kilwinning/Ardrossan (48,000)
Prestwick/Troon (25,000)

So you have over 200,000 people in a fairly small area which makes it one of the highest populated areas of Scotland outside the major cities but still there are no plans to roll out FTTC. The Kilmarnock exchange was one of the first to roll out ADSL MAX and I was part of the trial (i think that was around 2006) and since then my broadband speed has got slower and slower - I'm guessing due to congestion as it works great during the day but slows down at night. I'm also far enough away from the exchange that ADSL2+ brings me no benefit even though it is available.
Time for the government to get their finger (and cash) out.

My exchange (NSDEN) got "coming soon" 2012

Well...i'm happy

don't see why a less popular exchange in this city is getting is this year

i'm sure openreach have there reasons.

Edited by epyon (Wed 15-Jun-11 10:59:51)

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

But what size of town/exchange are we down to, when we hit the new have/have-not border? Ofcom's definition of Market 1 used to include 10,000 premises - which I reckon to match a population of 18-20,000. My rough guess says that the border between fibre and not will be exchanges/towns a little smaller - say around 6,000 lines, or populations of 10,000.

It isn't just about size though(*). Brackley is Market 3 and due to get FTTC at the end of year (used to say 'enabled December 2011' but now says 'Available 2012'). We have 6500 lines according to Samknows. Now that is above your limit but we've been listed as getting FTTC for over a year now so it's not like we're borderline.

(*)As the actress said to the bishop .

in leicestershire, more market 2 than market 3 have been picked, thoughts?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

in leicestershire, more market 2 than market 3 have been picked, thoughts?

Possibly a closer correlation with postcodes that have Virgin cable available?

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

in leicestershire, more market 2 than market 3 have been picked, thoughts?

Possibly a closer correlation with postcodes that have Virgin cable available?

incorrect.

2 of the exchanges picked have no VM. 9 exchanges not picked have VM.

Ah well, it was just a thought.

the market 2 exchanges picked do have rich people living there tho.

I'd imagine that all of those will qualify - though obviously it will also depend on just how many exchanges they have covering the towns. For example, there look to be 2 small exchanges within Ayr that look dodgier... although their cabinets could still be converted, but connected to the main exchange.

These roll-outs seem to follow a logic that is all their own. My exchange was in the original ADSL trial in 2000, and I was first onto the exchange with that one. Then it was almost last in the ADSLmax rollout, but it has been relatively early in the FTTC roll-out, and really late in the 21CN roll-out.

For comparisons:
I live in a town in the South East of England, with a population of 92,000, which has 1 central exchange (due to go live at the end of the year), 1 exchange that covers the western suburbs plus some villages (now live), and 1 exchange that overlaps into the eastern edges (due 2012). Samknows lists those exchanges as having 25,000, 11,000 and 12,000 premises respectively. It is, I guess, a relatively affluent area, mostly covered by Virgin, of regular suburb housing density - nothing especially high density such as blocks of flats - and all market 3.

The most recent (local) addition to the list is a village-based exchange, with 4500 premises - also market 3. It isn't a big exchange area, but the housing has to be relatively sparse compared with a normal town. I'd certainly have had this exchange down as borderline for fibre. They were also early with the original ADSL.

Who knows why? We're close to Guildford - which has long been one of the main switching centres in the national network for voice and now is a core node for 21CN. I have long suspected that we got early ADSL service because our exchanges were on a route that took fibre into Guildford - so was easy to wire/light up the backhaul.

In your case, like mine, it isn't going to be a matter of the government getting the cash out. It will be covered by BT's finances. The real question is how to get your exchange higher on BT's project plans

In reply to a post by adebov:

How long [after the first batch of proper - i.e. non-trial exchanges] did you have to wait, after 2000/2001 for ADSL1? That may give an indication how far you are down the 'it doesn't matter, it's only Scotland" priority list .

2004 and 2006 for ADSL and ADLSmax respectively according to Samknows. I think the 2006 date is a catch all date for many as opposed to being an accurate date.

My exchange is on this list which is good to see. I am a bit concerned that openreach have the council area listed wrongly as Fife though. In fact having just looked quickly through the 3 lists on their microsite 'Fife' seems to be a popular choice of incorrect council area / county.

Some of them should be obvious i.e. Aberdeen Ashgrove, Glasgow Scotstoun, Bristol South and I'm sure there isn't an Aberdare in Fife either!!!

Streetly appears twice, once in Fife and once in Walsall!

Openreach = BT Muppets with bells on.



Del

Inverkeithing - Fife
Cumbernauld - Not Fife

None of the others are Fife as far as I know.

If they were really that rich, wouldn't there be other service providers deperate to sell them services? The fact they are market 2 means it isn't just BT who think they won't buy stuff.

That doesn't explain why BT have chosen to include them, and not include the city areas though...

Makes no sense to me either, but its a defenite pattern.

If you look at areas where not many exchanges are been activated then the ones that are, are usually in affluent areas.