Dodgy BT marketing, broadband checker...

So following on from the saga of the broadband checker losing me, I've received a letter from BT flogging me Infinity.

Why is this dodgy?

a) Checking on the infinity website, the checker says that FTTC will not be rolled out in the next six months.

b) The letter says I have to switch away from current provider. Excuse me? The rollout of FTTC is Openreach; why have BT retail got information that I currently have broadband? I'm with AAISP.. Do ISPs have a list of who has broadband? I really think this is one for Ofcom to investigate. The letter should be from Openreach and should encourage me to adopt FTTC - but on a non-discriminatory basis...

Every website you visit can see your IP Address at the time. So the Infinity checker sees it.

All IP addresses identify the underlying ISP.

Simples, unfortunately.

Given your postcode we can check more accurately the FTTC schedule for it, as the Infinity checker is specifically for that product, and subject to Marketing control, not Openreach FTTC in general.

As an alternative to, or as well as, posting your postcode, this checker using your phone number is the next best thing.

According to the OP:

b) The letter says I have to switch away from current provider.

He's not on an LLU product (unless I'm not up to date with the AAISP range) so that's a downright lie, and worthy of a letter to Ofcom imho.

If the user put in their number to the Infinity checker, surely they can match this to their own records and see if the number is with them already and state he needs to switch to get the service?

Matt

In reply to a post by billford:

According to the OP:

b) The letter says I have to switch away from current provider.

He's not on an LLU product (unless I'm not up to date with the AAISP range) so that's a downright lie, and worthy of a letter to Ofcom imho.

Why? "Infinity" is BT Retail's product. So what they have stated is correct.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

If the user put in their number to the Infinity checker, surely they can match this to their own records and see if the number is with them already and state he needs to switch to get the service?

Matt

But as Bob said- they can check his IP to find out who he is with already, and it's AAISP. You don't need to switch away from AAISP to get FTTC, and although it would be necessary to switch to get Infinity, the difference is so slight that it's definitely misleading marketing.

Again, imho.

This argument has been had before though.

BT are stating that the user needs to move to them, to get Infinity. That is correct. I doubt the letter states that they're only the ones that can provide a fibre services.

At the end of the day, it is about who has the most money. If any other ISP wanted to put similar ads on the TV, or do massive mail drops about their own product, the end result would be the same.

Matt

OK, so it's legal.

The morality of it basically confirms my opinion of BT Retail.

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by uno:

If the user put in their number to the Infinity checker, surely they can match this to their own records and see if the number is with them already and state he needs to switch to get the service?

Matt

But as Bob said- they can check his IP to find out who he is with already, and it's AAISP. You don't need to switch away from AAISP to get FTTC, and although it would be necessary to switch to get Infinity, the difference is so slight that it's definitely misleading marketing.

Again, imho.

Which part of "I've received a letter from BT flogging me Infinity" gives you the impression that AAISP are selling Infinity or any other ISP other than BT Retail are selling a product called Infinity or that the OP would not have to move to BT to get BT Infinity.

Because of their near-monopoly position, Radio Times are required to state that "Other listing magazines are available".

Why should BT be able to take advantage of its complete monopoly of the FTTC market to squeeze out other suppliers?

I thought they welcomed competition...

In reply to a post by heathrow:

The letter should be from Openreach and should encourage me to adopt FTTC

OR doesn't sell to the public. So why should they write to you?

The letter was from BT Retail, who do sell to to consumers, and it was selling their own product, BT Infinity, as they are surely entitled to.

It is perfectly true that if you are not already a BT customer, as they would know, then if you are interested in BB you would need to switch from any current ISP in order to have BT Infinity. Note that it never mentioned FTTC in general.

In reply to a post by uno:

This argument has been had before though.

Indeed.
It wasn't that long ago BT Retail somehow found out who was with an ISP which was closing up shop (Bulldog IIRC) and sent out marketing letters to those people frightening them into switching to BT Broadband.

Either BT Openreach, or BT Wholesale, should have a database containing information on every broadband connection in the country (which uses BT 'phone lines as a method of connecting home to exchange).
The question is, surely, how did BT Retail (an apparently "independent" company - yeah, right!) get hold of that information.

All the CP's reselling BT products can see what is supplied to a particular premises via WLR3, I didn't know they could use this for marketing as it was designed to make switching easier.

In reply to a post by adebov:

The question is, surely, how did BT Retail (an apparently "independent" company - yeah, right!) get hold of that information.

There is no evidence that they did. They simply sent a mailshot promoting their Infinity product in an area where it was to be made available. In doing so, they pointed out that if you want it, you need to switch from your current ISP (whoever that is).

In reply to a post by heathrow:

So following on from the saga of the broadband checker losing me, I've received a letter from BT flogging me Infinity.

Why is this dodgy?

a) Checking on the infinity website, the checker says that FTTC will not be rolled out in the next six months.

b) The letter says I have to switch away from current provider. Excuse me? The rollout of FTTC is Openreach; why have BT retail got information that I currently have broadband? I'm with AAISP.. Do ISPs have a list of who has broadband? I really think this is one for Ofcom to investigate. The letter should be from Openreach and should encourage me to adopt FTTC - but on a non-discriminatory basis...

Not dodgy at all.

If you want Infinity then you MUST go with BT - there is no question about it. Only BT can supply Infinity and if you want it you will need to change from your existing supplier.

Try your complaint - and just see how quickly OFCOM tell you to go away and annoy someone else.

I expect it is nothing more sinister than a general mailing being sent out to ALL non BT Retail customers in the area. The ASSUMPTION is being made by BT Retail that as you don't have a service from BT Retail that you more than likely have broadband with another provider. While some people will have no broadband at all most will have so it makes sense to point out that it will be necessary to switch providers if you want to order Infinity from BT Retail.

BT retail are not saying they are the only provider of FTTC services but at the same time they are not telling you about their competition. If you received marketing material from sky or TalkTalk they presumably would also only tell you only about their own offering and advise you that you would need to switch your services to them to order their product.

I agree - and don't see what the fuss is all about. I HAVE Infinity - and still get letters trying to sell it to me. Mailshots aren't generally that selective, they hit very house in the area selected to receive it.

If someone wants Infinity as a product - then they go with BT. If they don't, well, dont!

In reply to a post by billford:

Why should BT be able to take advantage of its complete monopoly of the FTTC market to squeeze out other suppliers?

Apart from the fact that it's not a complete monopoly as OR sell it to other ISPs, e.g. TalkTalk's FTTC boost for example.

It's typical BT retail trying to pitch Infinity like it's something only they do (which strictly they do) just like 'most reliable wireless connection' that was spouted last year. As said, it's likely that BT have just sent the mail to all non-BT customers in an area matched from a widely available address database (e.g. electoral roll).

In reply to a post by Justo:

it's likely that BT have just sent the mail to all non-BT customers in an area matched from a widely available address database (e.g. electoral roll).

More likely that BT used one of the many mailing houses to do it based on postcode areas which hits all addresses, including BT customers (hence why I and others on Infinity still get Infinity mailshots ). As far as I know BT don't actually do all their own advertising mailshots - very few companies do.......

In reply to a post by Justo:

Apart from the fact that it's not a complete monopoly as OR sell it to other ISPs, e.g. TalkTalk's FTTC boost for example.

I was referring to the hardware not the products using it, I should have made that clearer.

I confess that I mis-read the OP... I missed the fact that the stuff about Infinity was in a mailshot, and inferred (wrongly) that it was part of the response from the availability checker. My bad .

Although quite why BT Retail are offering a product that OpenReach say won't be available for at least 6 months is another matter

BT Retail has done this for a while,
i.e. market with promise of Infinity, and thus these people are first to upgrade when it arrives in the area.

By people getting all the migration nonsense out of the way now, it may make the switch to infinity easier later.

Clever marketing is what it is, and the HH3 with its 'Infinity' port makes the upgrade smoother for people too.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Clever marketing is what it is

Yes it is... but if another company tried a similar campaign I'm pretty sure the ASA would jump on it as "misleading advertising".

Heigh ho.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by adebov:

The question is, surely, how did BT Retail (an apparently "independent" company - yeah, right!) get hold of that information.

There is no evidence that they did. They simply sent a mailshot promoting their Infinity product in an area where it was to be made available. In doing so, they pointed out that if you want it, you need to switch from your current ISP (whoever that is).

Mmmm, Pure innocence, those were the days!

Are other ISPs allowed to see if I've got broadband - and then write to me accordingly? I can't see why they would be - data protection act comes to mind.

So surely BT Retail is taking advantage of their position as part of BT - and have access to data they shouldn't?

The letter presupposes I have broadband. I think BT Retail are abusing their position...

(For the record - I'm with AAISP on Wholesale Broadband Connect - ADSL2+)

I don�t think BT Retail have done anything wrong TBH. What they use is commonly held information that is available to all ISP to target specific areas and get ahead of the game (rollout information is provided to all ISP's on a equal basis). They are far too big an organisation to break data protection laws just to deliver mailshots. I get them all the time from Virgin, Talk Talk and Sky to name a few.

In reply to a post by billford:

Because of their near-monopoly position, Radio Times are required to state that "Other listing magazines are available".

Why should BT be able to take advantage of its complete monopoly of the FTTC market to squeeze out other suppliers?

I thought they welcomed competition...

BT actually do state "There are other BB services providers" - I have had that numerous times when calling to order a service.

I am not so sure, seen judgments go various ways.

Remember the ASA only looks into complaints it does no pro actively police adverts, i.e. vet them.

BT is no where near as dominant as it was, and far worse tactics have been employed by door stop, shopping centre sales staff from a variety of places

The postcode is NW9 7LH. The postcode checker says I have it; the phoneline checker says not. I suspect work is ongoing (see my previous thread) and that I should able to order FTTC by the end of September.

Also think of all those competitions/marketing surveys which provide information that is sold legitamitely

Then there is all the various checkers that you use to look for BB availability. For example, I once used the Orange BB checker to see what their products and availability was and received a phone call the very next day, followed up by marketing literature within a week.

Every time you contact an organisation, do a search online, buy something with a debit/credit card etc, data is being collected so that it can then be sold on for marketing / advertising.

I wasn't saying they've done anything wrong in this instance (all we've got is one user who says he's received a letter from BT Retail, pushing Infinity and saying he'll need to switch from his current ISP - my guess is it shouldn't be too difficult for BT Retail to work out a particular number/person isn't already with them).

What I was pointing out was an example from the other year (either last year, or 2009 - time flies so quickly) when BT specifically targeted users of a single ISP (probably Bulldog, but could equally have been Tiscali).
Somehow BT Retail got that information.
Admittedly; it could have been from a database BT bought from that ISP, although I doubt an ISP would pass on/sell its customer database to one ISP whilst it's in the process of selling out to another.
The implication (never proven, I hasten to add) was BT Retail obtained a list of Bulldog connections (again; could have been Tiscali - can't be bothered to check) from the "independent" Openreach.

In my case, however, it's quite clear BT Retail don't always talk to BT Openreach or BT Wholesale.....
I received yesterday (August 1st) an e-mail from BT Retail which says

You can now get BT Infinity

Thanks for asking about BT Infinity. Great news: it's ready to go in your neighbourhood. So to get BT Infinity, all you have to do is click below.

Unfortunately; someone seems to have forgotten to tell BT Retail my exchange and cabinet have yet to be enabled (the BT Wholesale checker still says Sept. 1st).
So BT Retail aren't always privvy to inside information (despite sometimes appearing so).

Edited by adebov (Tue 02-Aug-11 21:31:09)

In reply to a post by billford:

Although quite why BT Retail are offering a product that OpenReach say won't be available for at least 6 months is another matter

Because they're Dodos.
I, too, have received communication from BT Retail saying Infinity is now available in my neigbourhood (although it isn't and won't be for another month), and to get Infinity all I have to do is click on the link (which promptly takes me to a checker which says it's not available until September).
It's a bit basic, but BT Retail seem to drop the odd clanger.
I'm wondering if, in my case, it's in response to an old proposed date (which, long ago, was switched to September).

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

and far worse tactics have been employed by door stop, shopping centre sales staff from a variety of places

That's a definate. For at least a couple of years Sky had a stall in the middle of out shopping centre (still do, in fact) promoting their combined TV, phone & broadband package.
They were telling people Sky were installing equipment in the exchange and it would be "coming within a couple of months".
This went on for at least two years until the exchange was finally upgraded.
Oddly enough I'd checked with Sky and UKOnline/Easynet (all said they have no plans to LLU the Banbury exchange).
The (completely obvious lesson) is ignore anything street hawkers tell you

BT cant do that. Only possible if they break the law and get a full listing of all of a CPs customers and they would have to be using BTs own exchange switches. These transactions would be recorded so any ofcom investigation would find this easily.

For LLU it is simply impossible, the "telephone numbers" are not held on a BT database - just a service ID and LLU wholesaler info / EU address of each line etc - the only way to get every telephone number would be having an engineer physically tap onto every line and dial the test number. If this were to happen it would leak - and take forever.

Much more likely that any info is gained legally through marketing databases. At the end of the day would you risk the breakup of your company just to win a couple of thousand customers? It would cost less to just drop your price a touch to encourage switch over.

In reply to a post by adebov:

What I was pointing out was an example from the other year (either last year, or 2009 - time flies so quickly) when BT specifically targeted users of a single ISP (probably Bulldog, but could equally have been Tiscali).

Since Bulldog was full LLU they had to contact BT to arrange the transfer of the line to themselves and also the phone number. So BT would have a record of whoever moved to Bulldog. This obviously applies to any full LLU isp.

In reply to a post by TheHorseman:

In reply to a post by adebov:

What I was pointing out was an example from the other year (either last year, or 2009 - time flies so quickly) when BT specifically targeted users of a single ISP (probably Bulldog, but could equally have been Tiscali)

Since Bulldog was full LLU they had to contact BT to arrange the transfer of the line to themselves and also the phone number. So BT would have a record of whoever moved to Bulldog. This obviously applies to any full LLU isp.

Only Openreach should know. Retail shouldn't have a clue. (As we know in other respects).

Infinity is a BT Retail brand and is only availvalbe from Bt Retail and incldued Guarantee of 15 meg - Ininify cannot be purchased where line not cabaible of gaining 15 meg from other CP others than BT Retails inifnity --

infinty is BT Retails verison of serivce provded using Ehternet GEA provided by Openreach

Other comminication providers are able to use Ethernet GEA to provide own Variants (an a number already do) but it is not infinity

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Infinity - Ininify - inifnity - infinty - infinity

Indubitably!! Now where's my glass gone.............

Well I never, something new to be learned every day.

In reply to a post by billford:

Well I never, something new to be learned every day.

Truly unlimited.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Truly unlimited.

Subject to peer review

What 15Meg guarantee? Oh you mean the if your estimate is 15Meg or better they connect you to infinity, to keep advertised speed claims looking good

If its lower you get the broadband over fibre but dare not call it Infinity product

Also, I found today that the price has changed and if you go for Faster Broadband Option 3 its now £28.

From previous posts I'd seen here it used to be ~comparable in price to Infinity, but with a 2mbps upload cap and 12 months contract. I was told on the phone today its 18 months now.

[EDIT] had to add this - just slowly dawned on me they're punting a lower spec product with a higher cost, based on cherry picking good estimates for the flagship Infinity...

Nice

Edited by deleted (Thu 04-Aug-11 20:19:40)

This is totally backwards, people who can get the 15Mb get to pay less than those that are given a lesser service. It seems BT is on a mission to drive away all potential customers.

Is the £28 per month inclusive of the anytime calls package as well?

As that is the price of infinity option 2 with calls.

Yes, it was inclusive of calls - I should have stated that.
So does that put them at the same price then? That would just mean inferior for upload speed then.

[EDIT] forgot to add - the sign-up discount is also better on Infinity - you don't get three months free on Option 3 (I think I was offered £8 discount for 3 months).

So I would have expected Option 3 with Broadband & Calls to be slightly cheaper than the equivalent Infinity product, and that the introductory discount would be the same...

Edited by deleted (Fri 05-Aug-11 08:09:29)

In reply to a post by Going_Digital:

This is totally backwards, people who can get the 15Mb get to pay less than those that are given a lesser service. It seems BT is on a mission to drive away all potential customers.

Probably no more backwards than when supermarkets and the like sell the smaller size of a particular product at a higher price than the larger one. It happens a great deal and is the way they (or the manufacturer) shift an overstock. Admittedly this isn't 'stock' as such, but the priciple is much the same - pricing is used to sell a product.........