Alternatives to BT's VDSL modem

Forum newbie so sorry if this info is posted somewhere... (I did have a good look around first honest!)

It would be really useful to have a list of devices which can be used in place of BT's supplied modem. I found the thread about the Fritzbox. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Either for a combined router/modem or for just a different modem folk can try if the BT one proves unreliable...


Cheers.

There was a thread a few weeks ago on alternative Modems to BT, but you need to do your own search.

What's wrong with the Modem; ok, it's unreliable (on my second one), but it's free to replace. Just have to suffer the down time.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4031694-rec...

What's wrong? Well, it's unrelable, and you have to suffer the downtime whilst they replace it. You may not see this as a problem but I do and most of our customers are business users who will too. So that's one reason that's at least good enough on it's own.

A second, less vital one, is folk are used to a single device acting as modem/router/firewall with DSL, so moving to a two-device setup is annoying, if not technically taxing.

If you are happy with the modem as shipped than fine - meantime my question stands!

Hah - searching the forum for older info is a LOT easier now I've found how to set the thread modes properly. Wonder why th defaults are so ghastlywierd.

My name is Andrew and I work for Electronic Frontier Ltd. We are ZyXEL's largest, and only value-added, distributor in the UK.

BT are not yet offering a wires-only FTTC/Infinity service so, unfortunately, third party VDSL CPE (Customer Premise Equipment) is not supported.

I full expect a wires-only service to be available in the next 18 months, but we will have to wait and see.

If anyone has any questions about this, or any other ZyXEL-related issue, please PM me.

Regards

Andrew

There is a real risk if doing this change to custom hardware for third parties when wires-only is not supported, that people will report a fault, and when the Openreach engineer arrives, sees non-standard hardware and simply leaves, marking sheet to suggest fault is with customers hardware, and thus raising an expensive visit charge.

It is very important that when an engineer visits that if people are using their own VDSL modem, they have the original hardware working, and showing exactly the same problem.

In my experience, BT were very quick to replace my original VDSL modem which went faulty, although someone had to be at the house for an engineer visit (why they couldn't just post it and send a returns bag for the old one I don't know).

We work from home a lot here, so I feel a lot happier having a backup modem/router such as this one

Edited by Edge (Wed 17-Aug-11 17:27:00)

The Billion 8200N works fine as a replacement to the BT VDSL modem.

What's wrong with the Modem; ok, it's unreliable (on my second one),

To this end, they are now shipping version 2 modems, the fault on the originals have been traced to the goo beneath the heat sink(sic) not being thick enough and causing the overheating problems.

That said, mine has run fault free since last November, the secret being having it mounted upright.

given that vdsl is supposedly backward compatible to adsl / adsl2 etc, what would happen if an adsl2 modem were plugged in instead ?

Pass, have seen ADSL2+ producing sync on a VDSL modem, but no PPP on the router, could this be PPPoA/E different VPI/VCI settings ?

Easy.. it wouldn't work

given that vdsl is supposedly backward compatible to adsl / adsl2 etc, what would happen if an adsl2 modem were plugged in instead ?

It might be able sync up at the dsl level but as ADSL modems are expecting ATM and the remote end is expecting Ethernet frames I doubt that much else would happen.

I'm running a Fritz!Box 7390 VDSL2 modem/router for my ADSL2+ connection to Sky, but I'm not sure it would work the other way round.

BT are on the 2nd version modems now (2V) which should be more reliable.

However if you want a business class VDSL router then how about a Cisco 877VA

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?...

Correct it will be the other setting that control authentication handshaking that are the issue, the physical xDSL transport layer should work

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

What's wrong with the Modem; ok, it's unreliable (on my second one),

To this end, they are now shipping version 2 modems, the fault on the originals have been traced to the goo beneath the heat sink(sic) not being thick enough and causing the overheating problems.

That said, mine has run fault free since last November, the secret being having it mounted upright.

That is a poor excuse - the thermal grease should be as THIN as possible to get the maximum transfer of heat. With a flat ceramic chip and smooth heatsink it is only required to fill the minor imperfections in the two surfaces.

That is a poor excuse - the thermal grease should be as THIN as possible to get the maximum transfer of heat. With a flat ceramic chip and smooth heatsink it is only required to fill the minor imperfections in the two surfaces.

I agree absolutely; however, I've also heard the "grease not thick enough" excuse when what was really meant was that the grease was simply the wrong stuff. I've no idea what's used in the modems, but some years ago I came across CPU failures in high-end servers due to overheating arising from grease issues. The spec of the grease had to be something containing heavy metals for greater thermal conductivity.

Unpleasant smells - not necessarily the usual smell of burning - were a common symptom.

Also, I think silk screen application helped to eliminate the erroneous "slap plenty on" mentality.

Dave

One using carbon are the best - there are some compounds which have diamond dust in them! The metal based ones using elements such as silver, copper and aluminium are a lot better than the ceramic based ones too.

That is a poor excuse - the thermal grease should be as THIN as possible to get the maximum transfer of heat. With a flat ceramic chip and smooth heatsink it is only required to fill the minor imperfections in the two surfaces.

Don't shoot the messenger !

there are some compounds which have diamond dust in them!

That was a new one on me but makes sense. I suspect Graphene could do even better, although I'm not sure whether it could be delivered as a paste; a pencil and sticky tape might be better!

Dave

You know it wasn't directed at you ... you were just repeating te excuse you were given.

In reply to a post by DLS:

there are some compounds which have diamond dust in them!

That was a new one on me but makes sense. I suspect Graphene could do even better, although I'm not sure whether it could be delivered as a paste; a pencil and sticky tape might be better!

Dave

Graphene - carbon!

as for Diamonds - Wiki

Edited by MHC (Thu 18-Aug-11 22:24:30)

Graphene - carbon!

Absolutely - but with better thermal conductivity than Diamond or even Carbon nanotubes, and much better than Graphite out of the plane.

Thanks for the link.

Dave

Still a poor excuse cos there really is no need for a device like this to get hot enough to need such malarky, IMHO. It's only handling a single channle of data at no more than 40 mbits/sec. I have here switches handling 8 ports at gigabit speeds that doesn't get warm to the touch...

In reply to a post by ggremlin:

given that vdsl is supposedly backward compatible to adsl / adsl2 etc, what would happen if an adsl2 modem were plugged in instead ?

Presuming you could match up the other parameters, I guess you'd get an 8 meg service. If you want that, order ADSL!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is a real risk if doing this change to custom hardware for third parties when wires-only is not supported, that people will report a fault, and when the Openreach engineer arrives, sees non-standard hardware and simply leaves, marking sheet to suggest fault is with customers hardware, and thus raising an expensive visit charge.

It is very important that when an engineer visits that if people are using their own VDSL modem, they have the original hardware working, and showing exactly the same problem.

Oh that's definitly an issue. With a busted system, the first thing anyone using third-party hardware should do is switch back to the official kit and try that - and only then report it if faulty. BT will charge a fat fee for a site visit to fix a fault if the fault is not within their area of responsibility - and they won't fix it!

Feedback.

OK - to try to put all in one place what I've learned over the last couple of days.

Dlink. I've not bothered looking. Given what the last few Dlink ADSL routers i've seen are like, I'd not consider it anyway.

Zyxel Prestige 870. Zyxel disti in the UK is not stocking this nor will they consider doing so until BT officially allow third party routers to be used and provide facilities for manufacturers to test their systems and work otu suitable settings to publish alongside the gear. The UK disti offered to source one for me on a strickt "no returns" basis with no guarantees and definitly no support. I'm not going to go there. Had BT enabled my local exchange I might've taken one to test out on my own line. I look forward to wires-only officially happening and have no doubt the P870 will be just as good as the P66x range we've been using for ten years on ADSL.

Thompson. I have a "Speedtouch" here we bought for line testing on problem cases as we were informed it's the router BT themselves use. But the UI is so dire, I'd never recommend one to a client. One of the networks we resell supply them as managed devices. Well, that's up to them!

Vigor 2750n. The UK disti say it should work with FTTC and offer a How To Page (see link) . I'm not clear if this amounts to them guaranteeing it's suitable or merely offering some assistance. http://draytek.co.uk/support/kb/kb_vigor_v2750_setup...

FritzBox. I have one customer using one but his initial attempts to get it working were unsuccessful, and he reverted to using it's PPPoE wan port and the BT router. I have forwarded him the additional info found here, but can't say if he'll try it or not. I also forwarded the caveats about the adverse affect of the line tests FB ran.

IN ANY CASE of course, it should be understood BT do not recommend and will not support anything other than their own supplied modem connected to the VDSL service, for the time being at least. I can only note that the GOOD news is they provide a modem and NOT a full router, so at least we're still in control of the firewall, etc., processes on our own kit inboard of the modem. Small mercies...

Thanks to all who contributed.

Totally different requirements. Switching is a simple process but the modulation and demodulation of the data is processor intense. It will get very hot with junction temperatures up at 70^oC.

It may be just a single channel at the output but to create that it has to look at several hundred input channels each of which has to be extracted from the full signal and noise, analyse the phase and amplitude for everyone of those at the same time and decide what that analogue signal corresponds to in digital terms. Whilst doing that it is taking an input digital signal and working out what analogue signal it should be in terms of phase, amplitude and carrier &c.

In reply to a post by ccomley:

I can only note that the GOOD news is they provide a modem and NOT a full router, so at least we're still in control of the firewall, etc., processes on our own kit inboard of the modem. Small mercies...

Someone that seems to understand part of the reasons behind BTs decision to supply a separate modem.

BT control the data and line - they then present the end user with an Ethernet WAN connection. The user can then deal with that in what ever way they want whilst BT can manage the line and diagnose any problems.

The BT (Huawei) modem has been in service for 2 years - that is at least a year longer than any of the others. It may have been put into service with some minor production faults but why did the others not release theirs? Incomplete design? Failed testing? Did not work?

I understand that the VDSL equipment in the cabinet can also work in various ADSL modes. Whether this is autodetetcted or needs intervention I don't know.

it would be essentially pointless as the power levels on adsl frequencies are reduced to match those coming form the exchange to avoid issues with existing services. The only benefit I could see would be almost seamless transition from adsl to vdsl (i.e. bt connect you when they please - then you do router end on the day quoted on self install). More trouble than it is worth imo.

Posting here as I have not seen it mentioned, that Openreach have been issuing new modems that do not fry themselves. They will be replacing old models on sight. If you look at the sticker on the bottom of your modem it will have a "2B" in the top right hand corner if it is the newer model. Had one run for 2 hours on the flat and was only warm - old model could get scorching in half that time.

I cannot see a '2B' on mine and it is only warm too. Mind you, it is my thrid one in less than a year .

DrT

In reply to a post by DrTeeth:

I cannot see a '2B' on mine and it is only warm too. Mind you, it is my thrid one in less than a year .

DrT

Can't see '2B' on mine either and it has been running since early April. It is fairly warm, it sits on the top of a bookcase

So it comes down to '2B' or not '2B'

Whether 'tis better on the wall to mount
The modem type kit of outrageous BT
Or to take blinds against a ray of sun
And by blocking thwart them. To die - to sleep,
No more.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Whether 'tis better on the wall to mount
The modem type kit of outrageous BT
Or to take blinds against a ray of sun
And by blocking thwart them. To die - to sleep,
No more.

Can't see '2B' on mine either and it has been running since early April

... that's because the new models have only been around since the start of August.

Just out of interest, if it were possible to buy one of BTO's modems, how much would they cost? It is a shame that they are not for sale as I would LOVE to have a spare. It is a real PITA to be off-line or have a flaky connection until a visit can be arranged.

It could be a nice little earner for BTO.

DrT

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Aug-11 19:29:42)

In reply to a post by G3UZF:

What's wrong with the Modem; ok, it's unreliable (on my second one), but it's free to replace. Just have to suffer the down time.

That *is* the problem with it . I'd love to have a spare handy.

DrT de G4DWV, 4X1LT

Presumably £26+VAT

In reply to a post by Ribble:

Presumably £26+VAT

Thanks. Now can you tell me where I can buy one? Damn, at that price I'd take two .

DrT

In reply to a post by DrTeeth:

... at that price I'd take two .

Probably very wise.

I've queried Openreach to see if we are able to purchase some of these as both spare/test modems for our customers etc.

That may also the visit cost.

In reply to a post by Adsl24:

I've queried Openreach to see if we are able to purchase some of these as both spare/test modems for our customers etc.

If the answer is positive, please let me know.

DrT

They occasionally crop up on ebay although exactly where from is a puzzle, especially when badged "new & unopened".

Openreach have stated they will and do not supply the VDSL2 modem to CP's / ISP's and thus we cannot purchase any from them

They of course want us to send SFI engineers with a risk of them charging a crazy amount instead of allowing us to pre-empt if the modem may be faulty by sending a test one out to a customer - like, proper ISP support should be like!

Oh well...

Openreach have stated they will and do not supply the VDSL2 modem to CP's / ISP's and thus we cannot purchase any from them frown

Does anyone know whether it is possible to buy the original Huawei product anywhere? (obviously without the BT specific firmware)?

During my install (4 circuits) I mentioned the overheating problem and asked for a spare, the engineer said he had just been to the stores and had a van full and handed me a spare so it's worth asking.

All mine seem to be the new version ones - http://stuff.futile.net/fttc/modem.jpg

They of course want us to send SFI engineers with a risk of them charging a crazy amount instead of allowing us to pre-empt if the modem may be faulty by sending a test one out to a customer - like, proper ISP support should be like!

But if it is the modem that's faulty, the engineer will swap it FOC, it of course being Openreach property, and therefore their responsibility. It might also be noted that they will be carrying these as van stock, and thus save the ISP having to arrange to hold stock, delivery without it being damaged, (that's how they first split the atom, having Royal Mail deliver it ) making sure the EU is in to accept it, etc.
What if it isn't the modem ? D-side fault, faulty FTTC DSLAM port ? The SFI will do all this as well, FOC. All on the one visit. You send out a modem as you suggest, it's not the cause, you have wasted money, and the EU's still out of service. Is this what 'proper ISP support' would like ? I suspect not.
You bemoan the risk of having to pay for the cost of an SFI visit ? You wait until VDSL goes self install, THEN look at all the visits that end up to be EU internal wiring/set up. Just like good old DSL.

My ADSL was BT engineer installed a decade ago, FTTC again was an engineer install a few months ago. In my opinion, I'd prefer it every time. Never had to have filters hanging out of every phone socket in the house.

In those 10 years I have never once had to call out BT to come and repair any of the sockets or wiring they have installed.

I am most certainly not a fan of Indian call centres, in fact I hate them with an avengance, and dread ever having to ring BT about anything but I have no complaints at all with the work BT have done for me over the years.

I agree, however it costs far less to send out a test modem to a customer, and have then try it, than to risk an SFI engineer charge which costs both us and the EU. Most customers who have issues with FTTC still have a service, but it's running at a degraded state. Many times it has been the modem, hopefully this will change with the newer versions of the modem that they are now supplying.

I know it will get swapped FOC, but if we've sent a test modem out first, and it doesn't solve the issue, we know that it's not the modem and that the EU needs to make double sure that it's nothing else internal before they agree to an SFI engineer.

As you say, with ADSL it's simple, as many customer have a spare modem/router, and can self-diagnose, or we can send them a test one. We only do it to prove that it's not (or is) their own equipment at fault before we book an SFI.

Naturally, of course it could be a bad port, faulty DSLAM, cable fault etc, but we have to rule out the device the customer has access to first - and that's the modem.

It's all about trying to protect the EU from an SFI charge at all costs basically. If we can help in that, we will.

Do you get to keep the modem if you Cease the service?

If so, a work-around would be to sign up to a new one and cease an existing one. One spare modem!

As its a 12 month contract that wouldn't really work

How long have you to go on your earliest contract? I was assuming not too long.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 01-Sep-11 11:48:55)

We have some early customers on their 14th month, so outside the contract now, but still, ceasing would incur a cost, a new provide would incur a cost, downtime would be involved, and a new 12m contract in place, so it's still not viable just to get a spare modem

Edited by deleted (Fri 02-Sep-11 08:51:46)

In reply to a post by billionuk:

The Billion 8200N works fine as a replacement to the BT VDSL modem.

But it's very expensive and almost impossible to get hold of.
The "online resellers" listed on the Billion website, which don't appear to sell the 8200N: -
Amazon.co.uk
BroadbandBuyer.co.uk (list it, but not in stock)
BroadbandStuff.co.uk
Buy.com
Equanet
Expansys

I could go on, but when six out of the first six sellers (listed on the Billion website) don't sell the 8200N, you have to ask why.
In fact; a quick Google search produces zero sellers (who I've heard of) that actually have any to sell.

Does the product even exist?
In my experience; if Amazon don't sell something it means the product is nigh on impossible to get hold of.

Do you have any suggestions (maybe other manufacturers) which work AND are actually available to buy?

Cisco 877VA

Post deleted by Garyilka - thought I'd found a couple on eBay, but even there they are showing it as a 'backorder item'!!

Edited by Garyilka (Fri 02-Sep-11 12:27:46)

In reply to a post by Adsl24:

We have some early customers on their 14th month, so outside the contract now, but still, ceasing would incur a cost, a new provide would incur a cost, downtime would be involved, and a new 12m contract in place, so it's still not viable just to get a spare modem

I was meaning purely in-house, to have a modem you could loan out.

I agree for a customer to get a spare modem for their own use it isn't viable.

In reply to a post by Garyilka:

Post deleted by Garyilka - thought I'd found a couple on eBay, but even there they are showing it as a 'backorder item'!!

And now removed completely.
Clearly the 8200N is a figment of Billion's imagination

In reply to a post by cmn:

Cisco 877VA

Even harder to get hold of (it seems). Google shopping results show absolutely no hits whatsoever!

Edit: Not only that, but Cisco.co.uk come back with nothing, either, when using their search engine.

Yet another non-existent vDSL modem/router

Edited by adebov (Fri 02-Sep-11 15:54:41)

I *did* see it on BroadbandBuyer's website, in stock and orderable, a week or 2 ago. Shame I dithered...

My bad, it's an 887VA

In reply to a post by cmn:

My bad, it's an 887VA

Nice; but at upwards of £240 I'll chance my arm with the new OR modem (install is in a few days, so should get a '2V' unless I'm really unlucky).

I had Business Infinity installed on Tuesday, and got a 2B modem.....

Is the Billion BiPAC 8200N any good?

As in does it sync as good as the BT OP set-up and is it as fast?

What chipset does it use?

Fritz!Box down to �190 - http://www.momilc.com/avm-fritz-box-fon-wlan-7390.html

(install is in a few days, so should get a '2V' unless I'm really unlucky).

All the 'old' versions *should* have been handed back in, but do ask the engineer, and do insist it gets wall mounted.

My modem is wall mounted next to my front door (nice & cool) it doesn't even really get warm if I'm honest, and hasn't been turned off since I got installed in June.

I bought my 7390 from momilc. Great service, including three human emails keeping me informed on stock and despatch (I ordered when they had none in stock).

couple on the bay going for £189, what is the sync rate and throughput like on these?

Mine is on 2 screws in the computer cabinet, and has run spot on since November. Not too worried, as I know a man who can replace it pronto, if it does go Pete Tong.

In reply to a post by lockyatlrg:

Is the Billion BiPAC 8200N any good?

As in does it sync as good as the BT OP set-up and is it as fast?

The test 8200M that I tested (modem only) synced 12% slower than BTO's modem. The 8200N does not have GBit ethernet either.

DrT

My Fritz!Box 7390 is currently connected to ADSL2+ pending activation of the new VDSL2 cabinet, so I cannot comment on experience with VDSL2 throughput. I've been running the router a couple of months and it is very reliable and retains sync better than the Cisco 877W it replaced.

On the LAN and wireless side I am extremely happy. My Cisco router's wireless didn't quite cover the house, but this one allows my iPad to connect at a rock-solid 85Mbps in a room where it previously struggled to get anything. My iMac sits at its maximum 150Mbps constantly. The router supports simultaneous dual band wireless, 5GHz allows most of my devices to avoid the noisy 2.4GHz spectrum. The Ethernet ports are all gigabit and transfers between hosts fly.

The telephony features are brilliant, I have paired my existing DECT phones which can now dial out through VoIP or via the fixed-line based on call routing rules defined in the interface. Calls to family overseas go via Skype Connect (SIP-based access to Skype, which is cheap but not free).

I'll report back on VDSL2 experiences once I'm connected and bedded-in.

In reply to a post by cmn:

During my install (4 circuits) I mentioned the overheating problem and asked for a spare, the engineer said he had just been to the stores and had a van full and handed me a spare so it's worth asking.

All mine seem to be the new version ones - http://stuff.futile.net/fttc/modem.jpg

As the picture shows, there are 2 possible ways to orientate the vdsl on the wall. Is one way better than the other? Out of ignorance, I have chosen to position mine on the wall so that all the leads come out the bottom.

Doesn't seem good,

I have been looking ant the fritz box and feature set looks good, any comparison with the OR modem?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Whether 'tis better on the wall to mount
The modem type kit of outrageous BT
Or to take blinds against a ray of sun
And by blocking thwart them. To die - to sleep,
No more.

I have chosen to position mine on the wall so that all the leads come out the bottom.

That's the way I always do mine, the internet runs quicker out of the LAN port with the assistance of gravity !

The current taken is less as well due to flowing upwards with a constant voltage. So cheaper to run.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I have chosen to position mine on the wall so that all the leads come out the bottom.

That's the way I always do mine, the internet runs quicker out of the LAN port with the assistance of gravity !

Clobbers the upload speed though.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The current taken is less as well due to flowing upwards with a constant voltage. So cheaper to run.

Not really, the electrons flowing out if the device (downwards) will be drawn out faster due to gravity. Also, as there is a similar capillary action to water so pulling the flow of electrons through the device. Therefore the net 'advantage' of gravity is zero. Q.E.D.

DrT