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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 06-Dec-11 23:49:53
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
Do these figures mean anything to you?
I have to admit they don't mean a lot to me:-
Text
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23
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ES:             1019            271
SES:            11              0UAS:            15              15
AS:             631461
Yes! AS is the (approx) Uptime in secs. You have extremely good low Error Secs of over 10 mins between each. From my experience about 5 mins per ES is good on Interleaved and about 1-2 mins per ES on Fast Path.

I'm not on FTTC, but I withdraw my comment about massive noise on the other line, now that you have given me more stats, as I see its DS SNRM has been raised in order to cap the sync to the max. 40 Meg.

I note that the FRITZ!Box does average errors over time, but I'm not convinced as more errors are likely during a period of heavy usage than the same period of idleness.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User burakkucat
(committed) Tue 06-Dec-11 23:55:24
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thank you. That's something for me to consider . . . smile

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User mikecrawford80
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:22:45
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
Hi, my stats are as follows;

DSL Up time - 1692005 (seconds) approx 470 hours


DS US

SNRM 5.4 15.1

CRC errors 0 0
FEC errors 36754 8
HEC errors 71524 0


I estimate my d-side at 950m.

Plusnet Extra Fibre
September 2011 Speedtest ...


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 07-Dec-11 01:19:22
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Anyway you can't average errors over time, only over quantity of data.
I don't agree with this statement.

While an ADSLx line is in sync there is a constant stream of ATM packets, which may or may not contain data in the way most of us understand it. Downloading a film or leaving the connection idle makes little if any difference.

So if you mean user data in the sense of something downloaded by the user, then you are wrong. If you mean data in the sense of the number of ATM packets on ADSLx, times 53, divided by the sync rate, then that is the same as using time.

VDSL2 which is used in FTTC does not use ATM anyway, and no relevant "data" stats are available, in terms of user data or ethernet frame count, so a somewhat tricky calculation. Connection time is the correct, and only, thing to use when analysing downstream error rates.

Incidentally this explains why some posters are seeing errors even when the line is idle. This is to be expected on VDSL2 in the same way as it always was on ADSLx.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 07:06:53
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: woodyblade] [link to this post]
 
Thanks woodyblade,

It could be really useful if you could repost the details after a few days of up time (including SNRM values).


I'll post the results of all this once I have a bit more data to report.


Paul.

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Wed 07-Dec-11 07:12:48)

Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 07:27:49
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Yes! AS is the (approx) Uptime in secs. You have extremely good low Error Secs of over 10 mins between each. From my experience about 5 mins per ES is good on Interleaved and about 1-2 mins per ES on Fast Path.

I'm not on FTTC, but I withdraw my comment about massive noise on the other line, now that you have given me more stats, as I see its DS SNRM has been raised in order to cap the sync to the max. 40 Meg.

I note that the FRITZ!Box does average errors over time, but I'm not convinced as more errors are likely during a period of heavy usage than the same period of idleness.


Thanks XRaySpex,

There may be quite a gap between my errors, but when I do get them, they appear quite substantial on some occasions.

I notice I had over 50000 CRC errors in one burst at around 1:15 this morning.
Again, this was while I was in bed with the PC unattended.

My PC updates its virus database/program at around 3:00 each morning.
This is occasionally quite a sizeable full program update, but it never seems to generate too many errors.

The limited information I have so far appears to suggest that my connection still has a bit of a problem somewhere.
It could be these regular & substantial bursts of errors that is causing DLM to restrict my sync speeds.

I was able to download at 33 Mb for a while on the old 8c profile, which if other users' stats are anything to go by should have increased substantially following the fairly recent switch to the 17a profile.

My connection has quite a history of genuine line faults.
Each time, it has been passed as LTOK by both my ISP & BT, needing much mithering from me to get them to send engineers out.

Each time an engineer has visited though, definite faults have been tracked down & repaired.

I woinder how many users are in the same position, but just end up "putting up with it".

Building up some data on other "typical" connections may help me/others as evidence when trying to get faults rectified.


Paul.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 07:35:38
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
VDSL2 which is used in FTTC does not use ATM anyway, and no relevant "data" stats are available, in terms of user data or ethernet frame count, so a somewhat tricky calculation. Connection time is the correct, and only, thing to use when analysing downstream error rates.

Incidentally this explains why some posters are seeing errors even when the line is idle. This is to be expected on VDSL2 in the same way as it always was on ADSLx.


Thanks for that explanation RobertoS.

I think my connection stats confirm your comment, in that I do see many errors when my line is "idle".

I am trying to determine whether or not these error counts can be classed as "normal", or excessive - requiring an engineer's visit.

From what I have seen so far they appear excessive to me, but I would like to build up a bit more user data before I go on yet another mission to have my connection restored to its previous excellent performance levels.


Paul.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 08:09:47
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: mikecrawford80] [link to this post]
 
Hi mikecrawford80,


In reply to a post by mikecrawford80:
Hi, my stats are as follows;

DSL Up time - 1692005 (seconds) approx 470 hours


DS US

SNRM 5.4 15.1

CRC errors 0 0
FEC errors 36754 8
HEC errors 71524 0


I estimate my d-side at 950m.



That's really interesting information for a number of reasons:-

a) Your line at 950m in length is similar to mine. How certain are you about the actual length?

b) Your error count is much lower than mine (especially Zero CRC errors).
I have always been led to believe that CRC errors are the really "naughty" ones to avoid.

c) Your SNRM, especially US is much higher than mine.

d) I am also with Plusnet (Value Fibre - Plusnet profile supposedly 37 Mb).
Have you experienced many connection issues, & if so, how have Plusnet dealt with them?
(Please also see the PM that I have sent to you).

I'd be very interested to see your pbParams details, (especially attenuation levels) ideally from both your 8c profile & your current (assumed) 17a profile.

These are mine:-


8c Profile:-

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# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0Max:    Upstream rate = 7007 Kbps, Downstream rate = 25548 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 1997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 25067 Kbps 
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (696,1183) 
DS: (32,687) (1192,1627) Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (696,1183) DS: (32,687) (1192,1627) 
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        DownstreamAttainable Net Data Rate:       7007 kbps         25548 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        1.3 dBm           9.6 dBm============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3  Line Attenuation(dB):  8.4     52.5     N/A     N/A    21.4    65.5     N/A   
Signal Attenuation(dB):  14.4    51.1     N/A     N/A    21.4    65.5     N/A           SNR Margin(dB):  14.5    14.3     N/A     N/A    6.5     6.5      N/A   
         TX Power(dBm): -9.3     0.9      N/A     N/A    9.3    -1.0      N/A



17a Profile:-

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# xdslcmd info --pbParams 
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0Max:    Upstream rate = 5965 Kbps, Downstream rate = 30832 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 5679 Kbps, Downstream rate = 27942 Kbps 
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783) 
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3939) Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) 
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        DownstreamAttainable Net Data Rate:       5965 kbps         30832 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        6.3 dBm          12.1 dBm============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3  Line Attenuation(dB):  8.2     53.5    64.1     N/A    21.9    63.8    70.0   
Signal Attenuation(dB):  14.3    52.2     N/A     N/A    21.9    63.8     N/A           SNR Margin(dB):  6.7     6.8      N/A     N/A    4.6     4.5      N/A   
         TX Power(dBm): -4.4     5.9      N/A     N/A    11.1    5.3      N/A
Standard User bhawkes
(newbie) Wed 07-Dec-11 08:45:46
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
Bald_Eagle1,

I recognise the 'other users' figures as my own. In which case I can fill in the missing distance figure as being apprx 300m from the cabinet.

The reported massive noise problems DS SNR = 22.4 are significantly different now on profile 17a than they were on 8c when DS SNR was reported as 10.9. This lower figure was also strangely accompanied by much higher error figures than are reported now.

I begin to doubt the figures and am just happy that I appear to have a stable connection with good real d'ld and u'ld figures
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Wed 07-Dec-11 09:05:14
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Re: SNRM & Error levels


[re: bhawkes] [link to this post]
 
Hi bhawkes,

In reply to a post by bhawkes:
Bald_Eagle1,

I recognise the 'other users' figures as my own. In which case I can fill in the missing distance figure as being apprx 300m from the cabinet.

The reported massive noise problems DS SNR = 22.4 are significantly different now on profile 17a than they were on 8c when DS SNR was reported as 10.9. This lower figure was also strangely accompanied by much higher error figures than are reported now.

I begin to doubt the figures and am just happy that I appear to have a stable connection with good real d'ld and u'ld figures


Thanks for line length detail.

As mentioned elsewhere, my connection appears to exhibit completely opposite error performance to yours, in that although I wasn't actually logging SNRM & errors on the 8c profile, I don't recall them as looking "excessive".

Perhaps that was simply due to the fact that until the latest engineer's visit, I couldn't maintain a connection long enough to build up a sizeable error count smile

Again, as mentioned elswhere, a couple of us that are messing about with things have noticed some apparent "discrepancies" in the manner that the modem reports its stats.
However, as all the HG612 modems operate identically, at least there is a level of consistency in order to compare one connection against another.


Paul.
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