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Hi everyone, first time poster so please bear with me!
I have been with Plusnet (as Force9) for almost 15 years now so made sense to continue with them when recently upgrading to FTTC.
The BT speedchecker estimated 27Mb on my line which was a substantial increase over the 6/7 I was seeing on ADSL. Install went fine and I was seeing around 22Mb at first although this has now dropped to a steady 18Mb. This seems way below estimate (I appreciate it's only an estimate but others report BT Speedchecker being conservative?) and so raised a ticket with Plusnet. OR engineer visited and proclaimed that there were no faults in the line and everything was how it should be. Being fairly new to all this I didn't ask how far cabinet was but did ask if IP profile (now sitting at around 18800k) could be reset. He said this must be requested by Plusnet and left! I contacted PN and they stated engineer was wrong and should have done a DLM reset......now have another OR visit booked to do just that.
Questions;
Is it normal for speed checker to overestimate an error free line by 30-40%?
Will resetting the DLM have any effect on the speeds I'm seeing?
What actually sets the IP profile? Can it be changed manually?
What questions should I be asking the OR engineer on next visit to ensure I'm getting best possible speeds out of my line? The last one admitted he wasn't "clued up" on FTTC.....does make you wonder!!
Any help/advice much appreciated
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IP Profile reflects the current sync stat with FTTC, i.e. non of the slowness in it updating. How stable is the connection? i.e. is the IP Profile reported on www.speedtester.bt.com varying?
Also if you remove the faceplate from the master socket, do all the phones in the property stop working?
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hi, the IP profile changed a couple of times in the first 10 days from around 22000k to 19521k which it has been for a week or so now.
Removing the faceplate does indeed stop all the phones working
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Remove the faceplate again and plug an ordinary filter into the test socket. There is nothing special about the filter in the VDSL faceplate.
Then see what you get.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Sorry Roberto, call be naive but what exactly do you want me to remove? I have a "openreach" Faceplate plugged into master socket and then a lower one plugged into the openreach plate. Do you want me to remove both? If so there are wires running from master socket to bottom face plate....what do I do with them and will it cause problems if I mess it up when the OR engineer calls?!
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remove both, but when we say we remove we dont mean rip all the wires off and throw them across the room, but leave the socket dangling connected to the wires e.g.
http://www.farina1.com/faceplate/IMG_5472.JPG
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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As per Andrew. We want you to use the socket on the wall at the back in this pic. (Nice pic Andrew  ).
As he says, be careful not to disconnect any wires.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Edited by RobertoS (Tue 17-Jan-12 14:25:55)
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I have a "openreach" Faceplate plugged into master socket and then a lower one plugged into the openreach plate. ?
Is it just like the pic on this page? If not, a photo uploaded somewhere sounds a good idea.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Lol! I thought that was maybe what you meant but unfortuately there's not enough "slack" in the wires to be able to let the face hang loose and fit another plate in its place. I'd have to to remove the wires which I'm not all that sure about?
Whilst happy to follow your advice can I ask what you're trying to troubleshoot with this? The previous engineer tested the lines both to the external box and internally and said there were no faults in the wiring?
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Fit what other faceplate? All you need to do is plug an ADSL filter into the test socket, and the openreach modem into that.
The possibility that there is a poor connection, or maybe even a dodgy Openreach VDSL faceplate
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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By "an ordinary filter" I meant one of the dangly ones. You should be able to get that in without too much bother. Just be careful  .
If you feel unhappy about it, it may reassure you to know that if you get a possible phone line fault on a "BT" line, the BT Phone Book tells you to do exactly this with your phone before reporting a fault.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Ok, thanks guys....got my wires crossed.
Done and no real difference....19.4 vs 18.8 download
Edited by deleted (Tue 17-Jan-12 14:52:31)
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Am I correct in thinking that DLM automatically changes your IP profile based on its monitoring? Therefore would simply bypassing the VDSL faceplate actually provide any instantaneous increase in IP profile or do I need to leave it on for sometime?
Can anyone shed any light on whether speedchecker results usually under or over estimate?
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Define speedchecker? i.e. which site are we talking about.
I would suggest leaving it connected for an hour or so, but based on what you've said I dont expect a big change. You may just be unlucky and leave a fair old way from cabinet
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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I'll answer some of the other questions while you're exploring things with the other two...
Is it normal for speed checker to overestimate an error free line by 30-40%?
No. They usually underestimate; I've had two lines - one estimated at 30.1, the other estimated at 29.1, and both synced at 40 (the 2nd one has the better "max attainable" value of 85Mbps).
Will resetting the DLM have any effect on the speeds I'm seeing?
For 2 days yes, but then there's a good chance that they'll return to the current value.
On my first line, and when the 8c profile was still in place, the line synced at 40Mbps on day 1. After 48 hours, DLM dropped this to 36Mbps because of errors on the line (I could see this as 4% packet loss on my TBB BQM), and also added interleaving (the increase in latency was noticeable on the same BQM graphs).
48 hours seems to be the point at which DLM intervenes if necessary - and sounds like it happened on your line.
If you want a BQM for yourself, you need a static IP. If you have, take a look over here.
BTW - I never got Plusnet to send an engineer out when my speed dropped, so you've got a good start there. In the end, it was the switch to profile 17a that gave me back the 40Mbps (and a max attainable of 65Mbps).
What actually sets the IP profile? Can it be changed manually?
The IP Profile is a %age of the sync speed (somewhere around 97%). A full speed line at 40,000Kbps gets a profile of 38717.
The sync speed, in turn, is initially negotiated by your modem with the cabinet. After 48 hours, it appears the DLM can intervene to reduce your speed a little - which I guess it does if it detects too many errors on the line (ie too many bit errors, detected by the CRC checks)
What questions should I be asking the OR engineer on next visit to ensure I'm getting best possible speeds out of my line? The last one admitted he wasn't "clued up" on FTTC.....does make you wonder!!
Really good to know:
- Sync speed (up & down)
- Max attainable sync speed (up & down)
- Attenuation
- SNRM (mostly only care about downstream)
Some of those value will change if he asks for the line to be reset, so make sure you get them after the reset (as well as before, if that is possible).
If he plugs the JDSU in to get those figures, I think he can also see the error rate (ie how fast the CRC errors are arriving). You might want to get a rough feel for those numbers too - it is probably those that will trigger DLM into taking action.
Also pretty handy to know:
- Which cabinet
- Where the cabinet is
- Distance to cabinet. Or at least which roads the cable is routed via, so you can measure yourself.
I think I managed to ask about all of that (and get answers) when I got FTTC installed at the new house.
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It should update when the line is reconnected. It usually changes instantly every time I power cycle my modem for example.
The checker is normally conservative but it's exactly what it says - an estimate.
When FTTC was first available to us in Summer 2010 it predicted something like 16Mbit down. When it was installed we got 27Mbit. Today the checker now says 27Mbit down and 11Mbit up...but we actually now have about 25Mbit down and 5Mbit up. It's not always perfect.
Do you have any idea where your cabinet is and how far you are from it? Note that you may not necessarily be connected to the cabinet closest to your property.
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Andrew, website I'm using for estimated speed is dslchecker.bt.com
Wombat, thanks for getting back to me on some of my other queries;
It does seem that I'm being very unlucky compared to most regarding my estimated speed. Even after DLM had intervened it seems most are getting more (or at least within 5-10%) of estimated speed.
I'll be sure to ask the engineer for the info you suggest when he visits (still awaiting an appt) but when the 2nd guy came out he did say that the line was "syncing at that" when I mentioned about the estimated 27.8Mb although I've never an IP profile more than about 22000k and I checked within 15 mins of the install...to me this doesn't seem right?
Orly; Yes, I do appreciate it's only an estimated speed and TBH, until I started reading here today just assumed that is was a MAX estimated speed and that most got far lower.....seems that's not normally the case? I don't know which cabinet I'm connected to but would think it's one of two which are max 500-600m away. I did ask engineer #2 but he said he didn't know......useless! Will be sure to ask when next engineer visits
By the sound of it, now I've had the filter in for over an hour and seen no real increase I'm ok to but VDSL plate back on? I'm also thinking now that I need to find out my max sync rate on the line before I can go any further....is that correct? I guess until I know that I won't be able to know whether the max 22000k IP profile I saw was the max attainable or if for some reason that was set too low? Or can anyone offer any other advice/insight?
The only other thing that's popped into my head is that I have a Vodafone SureSignal plugged into the router.....I've no reason to suspect it but could it be that having that connected at time of DLM reset would apply a lower profile to the line? I might just disconnect it when engineer comes just in case?
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PS what is a BRAS profile? Could it be that this is limiting my speed somehow?
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Since I have fitted the filter my IP profile has changed from 19521k to 20070k....reason?
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Hi Stranex,
PS what is a BRAS profile? Could it be that this is limiting my speed somehow?
Basically, it's the same as the IP Profile.
e.g. you can check your BRAS Rate here:-
http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker
It should give you the same value as BT reports as IP Profile in their own speed test at:-
http://test.speedtester.bt.com/
Be sure to run the mouselike checker before the BT test, otherwise you will have to wait for at least one hour.
Paul.
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Since I have fitted the filter my IP profile has changed from 19521k to 20070k....reason? It has connected slightly higher, but if there is noise around on the line that will be fluctuating and the connection speed with it.
I would try disconnecting the Vodaphone Sure Signal. (And if it has a separate power supply, unplug that from the mains. You need the raw connection in order to make sure it isn't that.
BRAS profile has a few things in it, one of which is the IP Profile.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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For some reason I didn't see your post about the BRAS Profile before doing mine  . Sorry.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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What is the full output from the BT performance checker?
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What is the full output from the BT performance checker?
& also, what is Plusnet's Current line speed as reported here:-
https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer...
You will have to login to see it though.
Mine is 37Mb, although I never get anywhere near that.
Paul.
Edited by deleted (Tue 17-Jan-12 18:23:01)
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Vivaciti. this is the readout from the BT Speedtester;
1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download Speed
17297 Kbps
0 Kbps 20070 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
> Download speedachieved during the test was - 17297 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 12000-20070 Kbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is -20070 Kbps
2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.
Upload Speed
1228 Kbps
0 Kbps 2000 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 1228 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 2000 Kbps
Paul, the Plusnet line speed is 37Mb like yours
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Hi Stranex,
Your speedtest results & IP Profile could suggest a few things:-
1) You could be quite a long way from the FTTC cabinet, causing the strength of your broadband signal to be highly attenuated, or
2) There is a physical "issue" somewhere in the copper section of your connection from the cabinet.
3) A combination of 1) & 2).
4) Your connection may suffer from external interference (noise caused by electrical or radio interference).
5) Your internal extension wiring may be causing high error counts, with DLM taking avoidance action by lowering your sync speeds/IP Profile to enable a more "stable" connection.
Here is a link to a photo of another Plusnet user's connection, taken during installation of FTTC:-
JDSU Stats Photo
It is from a few months ago, so the connection type is the old 8c profile.
If your installation was quite recent, it is likely (not guaranteed) that you have the newer 17a connection.
The test equipment (JDSU in this case) displays the line length estimate (not all engineers look at that particular display).
The other details, mentioned previously, are also displayed.
It would be really helpful in attempting any sort of remote diagnosis if you could take a photo of the engineer's JDSU or similar test equipment's display, or at least write down those details when the engineer visits & post them here.
If you are lucky, a specialist "broadband" engineer may visit, who may run TDR tests, with a view to identifying any physical copper line faults, along with their approximate distance down the wire.
Paul
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Is there a possibility that you have aluminium between you and the cabinet? That would explain the poorer performance, particularly if the checker systems neglected this factor for your line
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Cheers Andrew,
Is there a possibility that you have aluminium between you and the cabinet? That would explain the poorer performance, particularly if the checker systems neglected this factor for your line
I simply forgot to mention that blindingly obvious one.
I assume you were referring to Stranex's posts, but if your reply was directed at me, regarding my own currently poor connection, I doubt that aluminium would be the cause, as I initially achieved actual download speeds of 32Mb - 33Mb on 8c (Unless my cable was switched from copper to an aluminium section when BT reconnected me after 4 days loss of telephone and broadband).
My own connection's "issues" started well before being switched to the 17a profile.
Paul.
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Thanks guys, appreciate the continued support!
Couple of questions;
How can I tell if I gave aluminium rather than copper at some stage during the run from cabinet to house?
If (when the engineer visits) the JDSU reports a mac sync of 27.8 as per BT speedchecker then why aren't I seeing that at my end? Surely (aluminium or not) whatever the JDSU sees is what I should be able to achieve?
As previously mentioned, OR enginEer tests confirm no faults on the line so I am discounting internal ; or even exeternal) wiring problems. It would appear to. ( my untrained mind) to be a cabinet or manual profile restriction problem?
I will be sure to ask engineer what distance I am from cabinet and try to take some photos but I suspect I am well under 800m from cabinet. Even if wrong, why would speed checker estimate a significantly faster speed if it knew which cab I was connected to???
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Hi Stranex,
How can I tell if I gave aluminium rather than copper at some stage during the run from cabinet to house?
I don't know for sure, but it is possible that the engineer can query that from BT's Network records that all/most engineers can access from their laptops.
If (when the engineer visits) the JDSU reports a mac sync of 27.8 as per BT speedchecker then why aren't I seeing that at my end? Surely (aluminium or not) whatever the JDSU sees is what I should be able to achieve?
Your connection may have re-synced at a lower speed since installation, possibly due to errors/DLM intervention?
The engineer will confirm your connection's speed on arrival, but it does involve disconnection of the modem & syncing with his JDSU, which in itself may force a higher or lower speed.
The only way you could keep an eye on your own connection stats would be to unlock the modem, but that is an unofficial method, probably in breach of your terms & conditions.
If you do intend to unlock a modem, I would suggest obtaining a spare one from Ebay, or at the very least wait until after the engineer's visit
One engineer told me that if anything, the JDSU reports a slightly lower sync speed than most modems (something to do with resistance within the JDSU itself).
As previously mentioned, OR enginEer tests confirm no faults on the line so I am discounting internal ; or even exeternal) wiring problems. It would appear to. ( my untrained mind) to be a cabinet or manual profile restriction problem?
That all depends upon which (basic) tests have been conducted.
More often than not, the basic tests throw up a LTOK (Line tests O.K) result.
I will be sure to ask engineer what distance I am from cabinet and try to take some photos but I suspect I am well under 800m from cabinet. Even if wrong, why would speed checker estimate a significantly faster speed if it knew which cab I was connected to???
After reading many forum posts, I can't really recollect any users reporting actual speeds to be lower than their estimated speeds (apart from when a physical fault was located).
Some of the earlier versions of the HG612 modem had an overheating issue that caused many disconnections & resulting slow speeds after being in use for a while.
The newer version 2B & 3B modems (identical in apperance) have apparently resolved that issue & older modems are being replaced as a matter of course.
There should be a version sticker on the underside of the modem. Which version is yours?
Do you keep the modem connected 24/7?
Continual re-syncing can have a very negative effect as DLM may see it as instability & again lower speeds to improve stability.
If the engineer replaces your modem, it might be worth asking if you could keep the old one (just in case - as a spare), but don't tell him it would be so you could unlock it though.
Paul.
Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Jan-12 01:11:15)
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Hi again Paul and thanks for not giving up me yet!
The modem is Version 3B and it is connnected 24/7....no power supply issues that I've been aware of.
When it was first installed I did a speed test about 5mins after (and then several more in the next few hours) and the max profile I ever saw was somewhere around 22500k....surely DLM wouldn't have interupted within the first few minutes of connection?
I have a engineer booked for tomorrow pm so will ask the appropriate questions and report beack here in due course.
One very worrying discovery this afternoon though.....I used the BT DSL checker to check the estimated speeds in the adjacent street (we are on 4 house development off that road about 30m away) and the estimated speeds were "20.4 to 28.5"....Hmmmm, would tie in with the max 22.5 I saw? Will be interesting to see what JSDU reports and max sync....if only around the 22.5 mark then I guess our 4 year old development has thrown up a curveball hence the over estimate. Seeing that nobody seems to have reported getting less than their estimated speed, I wonder if I might be able to use my experience as some kind of "barginning tool"?!?
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Hi Stranex,
Hi again Paul and thanks for not giving up me yet!
No worries. Some of us are all in the same boat. The least we can do is try to help each other out from time-to-time.
The modem is Version 3B and it is connnected 24/7....no power supply issues that I've been aware of.
When it was first installed I did a speed test about 5mins after (and then several more in the next few hours) and the max profile I ever saw was somewhere around 22500k....surely DLM wouldn't have interupted within the first few minutes of connection?
It COULD do, especially if it saw incredibly high error count bursts.
I have a engineer booked for tomorrow pm so will ask the appropriate questions and report beack here in due course.
Fingers crossed for the "right sort" of engineer turning up & for a (hopefully) successful outcome, but don't hold your breath.
(I'm afraid I have become rather cynical over the last few months)
If the engineer REFUSES to let you see his JDSU stats for YOUR connection, just ask him for his/her Controller's/Manager's direct telephone No. & discuss it directly with them.
IMO it is completely unreasonable to hide connection stats from users who actually pay for a service.
I had one engineer who refused to let me see the stats, supposedly on the grounds that he could get sacked for showing me.
What utter BS. I wish I had contacted his Manager at the time.
One very worrying discovery this afternoon though.....I used the BT DSL checker to check the estimated speeds in the adjacent street (we are on 4 house development off that road about 30m away) and the estimated speeds were "20.4 to 28.5"....Hmmmm, would tie in with the max 22.5 I saw? Will be interesting to see what JSDU reports and max sync....if only around the 22.5 mark then I guess our 4 year old development has thrown up a curveball hence the over estimate. Seeing that nobody seems to have reported getting less than their estimated speed,
Apparently, BT will be updating speed estimates 28th/29th January to take the 80Mb/20Mb roll-out speeds into account.
I wonder if I might be able to use my experience as some kind of "barginning tool"?!?
Stranger things have happened............
Paul.
Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Jan-12 19:11:19)
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The only way you could keep an eye on your own connection stats would be to unlock the modem, but that is an unofficial method, probably in breach of your terms & conditions.
If you do intend to unlock a modem, I would suggest obtaining a spare one from Ebay, or at the very least wait until after the engineer's visit
If you did acquire access to an unlocked modem and if you are a Windows user, the links in this post may be of some assistance to you over the coming weeks/months:-
Unlocked modem Stats post
Paul.
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If (when the engineer visits) the JDSU reports a mac sync of 27.8 as per BT speedchecker then why aren't I seeing that at my end? Surely (aluminium or not) whatever the JDSU sees is what I should be able to achieve?
Your connection may have re-synced at a lower speed since installation, possibly due to errors/DLM intervention?
The engineer will confirm your connection's speed on arrival, but it does involve disconnection of the modem & syncing with his JDSU, which in itself may force a higher or lower speed.
The only way you could keep an eye on your own connection stats would be to unlock the modem, but that is an unofficial method, probably in breach of your terms & conditions.
This is really to the OP, but this is the right bit of conversation to quote...
The engineer would (probably) connect his JDSU instead of your modem, and check the state of the connection on there - which makes this the one occasion you can get a "window" on those line statistics that stay hidden within the standard (un-hacked) modem.
In particular, this will let you see what kind of rate the errors clock up at.
BaldEagle1 is right that the JDSU might sync at a different speed, but it will only do so under the limits of the setup allowed by DLM - so it will be very similar before the engineer orders a reset. Once the engineer has reset the line, then gettign the line stats becomes even more important (especially the errors), because that will setermine whether you line will be immediately throttled again.
It still looks like you need the engineer to actually do something to the line. Perhaps by replacing some cable, or re-making some connections. Everything else we've talked about is *interesting* to know, but isn't going to actually fix anything - it still needs the man with the pliers
One engineer told me that if anything, the JDSU reports a slightly lower sync speed than most modems (something to do with resistance within the JDSU itself).
That fits with my observations on the new line. The JDSU gave my line a top speed of 85Mbps; the modem reports 90Mbs. They're closer on upstream though (24 vs 25).
I will be sure to ask engineer what distance I am from cabinet and try to take some photos but I suspect I am well under 800m from cabinet. Even if wrong, why would speed checker estimate a significantly faster speed if it knew which cab I was connected to???
The checker can only estimate based on the data held in the database at Openreach. If someone stored duff data to describe your line, then the estimator will make duff estimations.
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Cheers Guys,
So basically when he turns up Fri pm (did I say Fri before? Think I may have said tomorrow!) I need to ask to look at the JDSU for sync speed and what? Error rate or similar? Does anyone have a pic of a JDSU screen?
Presumably after that, he'll hopefully go to the cab and reset the DLM and then come back and recheck the line....time for another JDSU reading?
Wombat....you mention the engineer might actually have to do some "engineering" rather than screwing modems onto walls and plugging a computer into the socket (my old man was a "proper" BT engineer......none of this reading data from a JDSU malarky!). Do you have any idea how he / I will know if this is required? Presumably, if he resets the DLM and then comes back and the JDSU reports the max sync as the same as what I'm getting, he'll just say that is all I can expect? Or would errors show up on the line indicating that "something" needs to be tampered with?
Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Jan-12 22:59:47)
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Does anyone have a pic of a JDSU screen?
Apologies....just seen the screenshot from BaldEagles earlier post
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Hi Stranex,
Cheers Guys,
So basically when he turns up Fri pm (did I say Fri before? Think I may have said tomorrow!) I need to ask to look at the JDSU for sync speed and what? Error rate or similar? Does anyone have a pic of a JDSU screen?
The only photo I have is the one mentioned previously ( JDSU Photo ). A different screen would show error rates (if they are actually present at the time)
Presumably after that, he'll hopefully go to the cab and reset the DLM and then come back and recheck the line....time for another JDSU reading?
The type of Engineer that will be visiting your home doesn't actually have access to the fibre cab where the DSLAM & DLM are located.
They only have access to the old cabinet. The broadband is connected via short patch leads from the fibre cabinet to your copper D-side in the old cabinet.
If the engineer does decide your profile needs resetting, he will phone the "Fibre Centre" or whatever it is called, for it to be reset remotely.
He would recheck your stats as soon at that has been done.
Wombat....you mention the engineer might actually have to do some "engineering" rather than screwing modems onto walls and plugging a computer into the socket (my old man was a "proper" BT engineer......none of this reading data from a JDSU malarky!). Do you have any idea how he / I will know if this is required? Presumably, if he resets the DLM and then comes back and the JDSU reports the max sync as the same as what I'm getting, he'll just say that is all I can expect? Or would errors show up on the line indicating that "something" needs to be tampered with?
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Yes, the errors are shown on a different screen from the one shown on the previous post.
After I had the problem on my first line - where the engineer left after telling me the sync was 40Mb, but DLM later decreased it due to the 'obvious' errors on the line - I struggled to make anyone interested in helping me get my line "better" while the actual speed was still better than the checker's predictions. My problems weren't as bad as BaldEagle's - but I sure wish I'd not let the engineer leave quite so quickly.
I thought about it a little, and decided that the only way I'd know (while the engineer was present) was not to look at the sync rate alone, but to look at the error rates (mainly CRC errors, but FEC errors too if the forward-error-correction process was turned on alongside interleaving).
So, I tried asking about that during the second install (in true 'locking the gate after the horses have gone' fashion). His display showed zero errors over the 4-5 minutes we left it connected, which I took to be a rather better sign
The question that would naturally be raised is "How many errors are too many?" I don't know the answer to that - and not many people do. The part that "error rate" plays in DLM is not well understood.
However, someone found a graphic on "DLM Thresholds" and posted it into a Plusnet thread. On the "standard option" (rather than stable or super-stable), it quotes an MTBE (mean time between errors) of 60 seconds as the "red threshold" and an MTBE of 600 as the "green threshold".
I interpret that to mean: more than 1 CRC error per minute (60 per hour) is bad, and would cause DLM intervention to downgrade; between 6 and 60 errors per hour is OK; less than 6 per hour would cause DLM "de-intervention" to upgrade.
The "stable" option would set thresholds that allowed 1/10th of these error rates, and "super stable" a further 1/10th of the "stable" ones.
Note we have no indication that those thresholds belong to BT, or whether they apply to 20CN, 21CN or fibre (or even if they apply at all). I'm pretty sure the language of a "super stable" option applies to 21CN, so I figure this graphic applies to that class of products. From old 20CN experience, I can certainly say that a rate of 10 per hour is utterly stable.
Wombat....you mention the engineer might actually have to do some "engineering" rather than screwing modems onto walls and plugging a computer into the socket (my old man was a "proper" BT engineer......none of this reading data from a JDSU malarky!). Do you have any idea how he / I will know if this is required? Presumably, if he resets the DLM and then comes back and the JDSU reports the max sync as the same as what I'm getting, he'll just say that is all I can expect? Or would errors show up on the line indicating that "something" needs to be tampered with?
The $64,000 question. The JDSU is the thing that tells him what the line is capable of; unfortunately the policy of DLM "not intervening" for the first 48 hours means that just looking at the sync speed on there * during an installation visit* is almost a waste of time. To me, it allows the engineer to sign off & walk away under false pretences.
IMO they need to be taught to look at the error rates, and have some guide for knowing what are "too many". If your engineer doesn't know to look at these, and doesn't know how to interpret the numbers, then you might need to prompt him about whether X sounds high.
But all that is merely a "trigger" to get them to investigate the line properly - to determine if there is a fault in a cable somewhere, or in a joint somewhere. There are tools to help them there (some of which are line testers situated at the exchange), but I'm not an expert on that part.
I know that when the neighbour's had their FTTC install done, the engineer had his head poked down the manhole cover at the nearest distribution point - looking for the joint to try to fix a problem. He said they'd sync'ed at 40Mbps, so (in hindsight) I assume he was investigating a problem with the error rate.
What would I expect to see when the engineer turns up?
If the engineer plugs in the JDSU before resetting the DLM, I'd expect you to see the current sync speed, and an error rate within an "OK" range - hopefully somewhere near the numbers I mentioned earlier, but you might have to play it by ear.
If he orders DLM to be reset, then the line should resync as fast as it can (IIRC, you said this was at 40?), and this should be visible on the JDSU - as would a higher rate of errors.
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Just a point of information re " unfortunately the policy of DLM "not intervening" for the first 48 hours means that just looking at the sync speed on there *during an installation visit* is almost a waste of time". I agree with the sentiment, but it isn't 48 hours. SIN 498:- On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before intervening, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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I think a JDSU can also run a TDR test. Not sure if the engineer has to plug in a different module though.
From what I can gather, most engineers still prefer to use the older 'Hawk' or 'Mole' testers for TDR testing, but I believe these are being phased out in the name of progress?
The only time my connection actually had a TDR test (using a 'Hawk'), an OBVIOUS high resistance problem was identified at a distance "somewhere near the cabinet".
All other previous "standard" tests until then had resulted in LTOK!!!!!!
The engineer dealt with a double-jumpered connection INSIDE the cabinet, which appeared to lower my connection's DS attenuation value from 30.2dB to approx 21-22dB.
However, that engineer did NOT re-test the line to check for anything else less obvious (he actually REFUSED to) as he said it wasn't necessary - he had fixed the fault.
The very same afternoon, my telephone started crackling again, resulting in modem disconnections.
Surely, it would be far more cost-effective if FULL tests were carried out at the outset, rather than keep having another "dabble" at things.
e.g. around 100m of drop wire was replaced in November.
It reduced my error counts a little, but I still haven't got my higher speeds back & I still suffer from random disconnections & error count bursts of 2Million or so at a time.
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Just a point of information re " unfortunately the policy of DLM "not intervening" for the first 48 hours means that just looking at the sync speed on there *during an installation visit* is almost a waste of time". I agree with the sentiment, but it isn't 48 hours. SIN 498:-On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before intervening, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day.
We'll have to give BT some leeway under the definition of "the day after provision" then...
But the evidence of my eyes (and particularly the TBB BQM) says 48 hours. Here is what happened to my line....
1) Deployed 3rd June 9:20AM: BQM
DLM intervention 5th June 9:30AM to add interleaving: BQM
DLM intervention 5th June 7:00PM to drop speed: same BQM
2) Upstream regrade (to 10Mbps) caused DLM reset, 6th June, just after midnight: BQM
DLM intervention 8th June between 9:00 and 10:30 to add interleaving: BQM
DLM intervention 8th June 8:00PM to drop speed: same BQM
The intervention to turn on interleaving was obvious in the graphs; the fact that the speed stayed the same (IP profile 38717) was not - except when I ran tests myself. In both cases the profile speed only dropped in the evening (the first time was an automatic resync; the second was manual).
Edit: Those BQM's seem to have inherited the new title. The line wasn't in Harrogate at the time; it was to the Brookwood exchange.
Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jan-12 11:53:09)
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BaldEagle, sorry, maybe didn't make it clear earlier but the whole reason for this engineer visit is to reset the DLM....are you suggesting that there's a possibility the engineer won't be able to do this?
To clarify, I had Fttc installed, then an engineer visit 10 days later who tested the line and said no errors but ask your ISP to request a higher speed profile from OR. This was duff advice and at first BTWholesale said as a way of "compensation" they would send out an engineer to reset DLM without a house visit. This again transpired to be wrong and a house visit IS required, hence the appointment tomorrow. And now you say that DLM can be reset remotely?!? Does anyone at BT/OR actually have any idea how this is done? Seemingly not!!
I will be a very unhappy chap if I stay in tomorrow pm for what will be 3rd engineer visit only to be told that he can't do a DLM reset and that it can be done remotely.....
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Pretty convincing graphs .
Installation day must be ignored. You don't expect modern technological systems to work to a rolling 24-hour clock surely?  .
As theoretically an installation could occur any time up to 23:44 I suppose the exclusion is explicable, though I wonder which day the ISP starts to incur the charges?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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As I understand it he has to ring and request it. There's possibly some silly rule he has to confirm the need himself by a visit to the premises. It's also possible the first engineer was one of the new recruits and ....
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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And so the saga continues!!
Engineer just been here for 3 hours;
Firstly he connected JDSU and, as expected it just confirmed the speed I was presently getting. Distance measured to the cab was 1.2km. There were a few errors showing up but he said the ones I should be interested in were reading zero over 5 mins (FWIW he mentioned it having to be 20+ over 5 mins to be worthy of investigation). I can't remember if these were FEC errors or not, but the type of error that was showing was fairly high (one second it was 188 then 244 a few seconds later....presumably these weren't the ones to worry about?)
Anyway, he then phoned up to get DLM reset.....OR guy on other end refused!! I asked to speak to him but guy on other end said he wouldn't speak with me "he's not my customer"!??!? Hang on.....I've got a OR line coming into my house and I have an OR modem sitting on my wall! Anyway, he wouldn't speak to me, end of.
So....phoned up Plusnet to explain this to them. I think I mentioned before but during the last week, PN have said;
1/ The engineer made a mistake last time and must request a DLM reset whilst at your property. Because he didn't, OR said as way of "compensation" they would reset remotely without an engineer visit. Then;
2/ OR have changed their minds and said engineer MUST visit in order to request the DLM reset, hence todays appointment and my half day off work
Ok, but when I phoned today guess what? "When we get the engineers report, we'll ask OR to do a remote reset".......talk about going round in circles!!
So, engineer then goes to cab to see what he's getting out there. Comes back and reports 25MB and that upon questioning with someone over the phone, they stated a cap had been placed on the line. Now whether this is an ISP cap or DLM cap, he thought ISP cap. Also mentioned some unsyncing at the cab and so put in request to change ports.
An hour wait while that went through and he went back to cab to change me over. Came back and stated that it was now showing 40/2 out of the cab....so much for a 25 ISP cap then? I really don't think he knew what he was talking about.....I reckon the 25 cap he saw before must have been the DLM cap?
Came back and (as when first installed) I saw about 22.5MB for a few minutes before if fell back to about 18.5 as before.
So, where does this leave me? Exactly the same place as before!
Has changing the port reset the DLM? It would appear to have done so because I saw the slightly faster speeds for a short while and engineer stated that it would have (though I don't now trust a word he says!)
Is 18.5 at 1.2km "normal"? He did mention there was some aluminium cabling coming into the cab but didn't know how far it extended and that "it's effect would be minimal"?
Should I continue to chase this up or do I now settle for what I have and talk to Plusnet about not getting what I paid for? I know the DSlchecker results are only approximate speeds but given the error free line, there seems to be little/no precedent for getting LOWER than estimated speeds....especially 40% lower. Heck, it's only bout double what I was getting on ADSL!
Not sure if it helps but "noise" was 31dB and noise margin was 6.1.....I have no idea what that means but may help you guys with your (hopeful!) replies!
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The way I see it, I'm afraid you are stuck with what you are getting.
Aluminium does degrade faster than copper over distance. Combine that with the fact that the distance is over 1Km and maybe thats all it can manage.
As for not getting what you are paying for, I'm afraid you are. As with all DSL based products, it is sold as a "best efforts" service, you are not paying for 40Mb, you are paying for a minimum of 15Mb and a maximum of 40Mb. Neither can you use the estimate as leverage, as it is just that, an estimate, and whilst you are the first person I have seen to get a speed lower than the estimate, it is not a get-out clause.
The only way you would have some leverage, is if the line was syncing below 15Mb, as thats the fault threshold. If it syncs over 15Mbit, then that is deemed to be normal signal degradation, and I'm actually surprised that OR were willing to investigate it, as according to them, anything over 15Mbit is fine.
Either way, yes it does suck.
FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 39999 US: capped to 2000
NILN exchange - 550m from cabinet
Netgear WNR1000
Edited by reddev86 (Fri 20-Jan-12 17:26:46)
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Thanks for lifting the mood here Reddev!
Seriously though, if the checker said I could expect 20Mb than I'd be happy with 18 but as it states 27.8 and I'm getting nearly 40% less than that then I feel a little "cheated", especially as nobody else has reported getting less than estimated speed?
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Sorry, yeah it did sound a bit depressing didn't it
I understand how you feel, i went through the same thing on ADSL, estimated 16 meg, in reality got 9 and there was nothing I could do about it apart from making sure my internal wiring was up to scratch, which it was.
There probably is something not quite right, FTTC estimates have always been below what is actually achieved, so perhaps the checker database was just wrong. It has been known to happen in the past. But yeah, I'd be annoyed too if I was in your position. The trouble will be getting to the bottom of it and getting it fixed (as you well know by now).
I'm just not sure what else you can do. As I mentioned, you can't use the "I'm not getting what I'm paying for" line, so your options are limited.
FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 39999 US: capped to 2000
NILN exchange - 550m from cabinet
Netgear WNR1000
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Hi Stranex,
And so the saga continues!!
Welcome to the "Well below 40Mb, but can't really understand why" club.
I have been querying my own connection's performance for a few months now (epic forum posts all over the place)
e.g. this one started it all with what at first appeared to be a fairly simple question :-
FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
26 pages later - I still have no real idea!!!
I have been mainly trying to address the FACT that I initially had quite good speeds for the first month & now I don't.
Just by coincidence, I received this reply to my open (also very long) Plusnet ticket today:-
"The fault threshold rate for your connection is 15Mbps. Maximum stable rate is not a figure that we see when we test your connection and so as such the MSR is not applicable. Testing shows your line in sync at 27.9Mbps for over 24 hours stable. As such all parameters are within the limits set by our supplier.
Please let me know if you have any further questions."
I do have further questions such as the BT speed estimate for my connection is now 30Mb (supposedly accurate within 1Mb) - It WAS 14.6Mb when FTTC was first installed, but I achieved over 32Mb throughput - Explain!!!!
I'm not trying to blame the ISPs. Their hands are clealy tied as the issues MUST rest with BT, BT Openreach, or whatever they happen to be called, as THEY provide the infrastructure, not the ISPs.
I suspect that the DLM reset tried your connection at full pelt, but a very high error count soon put paid to that idea.
You believe you are genuinely 1200m - 1300m from the cabinet.
VDSL2 speed (& apparently stability) does deteriorate rapidly once the D-side line length gets to around 1200m or possibly less.
So, maybe you are actually receiving the best you could reasonably expect (especially if some aluminium cabling is thrown into the equation).
FEC errors shouldn't really be too much to be concerned about.
As I understand matters, Forward Error Correction means that they are dealt with "on the fly" due to Interleaving being turned on.
CRC or UnCorrected errors seem to be the problem. Data has to be re-transmitted, thus slowing down throughput.
For my own connection, I have seen (& still do see) massive CRC type errors in sudden bursts (up to 2.5 Million within a couple of minutes), which quite often results in a re-sync at a lower speed.
Regarding the speed capping, I suspect my connection is now capped at 30Mb (by BT Whoever), as I have not exceeded that for quite a few months now.
Plusnet state that their "profile" is named 37Mb for ALL FTTC users, which really means up to 40 Mb??????
My Plusnet Profile has NEVER changed from 37Mb, although I have seen reports from a number of Plusnet users that their Plusnet Profile has reduced to as low as 13Mb or 15Mb. However. those users were still achieving almost the full 40 Mb sync speeds/throughput.
I understand that DLM can force a connection cap based on the statistical information it receives for each individual connection, such as No. of disconnections per hour/day, error counts per minute/hour etc. etc. etc.
I have yet to find an official confirmation of these limits.
BT's SIN 498 document appears to describe the principles behind this, but I don't think (from memory) that it provides specific quantities.
SOMETIMES, the DLM cap can be reset remotely - only on a direct instruction/request from an on-site engineer, with users seeing immediate increased (& maintaned) speeds.
This type of profile reset usually follows physical repair work that has actually cured a "fault" & speeds up the "stuck" DLM process, that could otherwise take many days of connection automated testing/retraining at various speeds until a "suitable" balance between speed & stability has been found.
BT Whoever can & do also apply physical speed caps for the package e.g. 40Mb/2Mb for most Plusnet customers.
I have a personal theory that if the remote "profile resetter" person sees a history of problems in the BT Whoever database, they will simply REFUSE to reset the profile back to 40Mb.
Following one engineer's visit I was told (via the on-site engineer) that the remote resetter told him that my connection could NEVER have achieved anywhere near 32Mb, so they REFUSED to even attempt a 40Mb reset.
At that time it was remotely reset from its "stuck" 15.0Mb to 24Mb or 25Mb. The engineer wasn't too specific.
To be fair to the engineer, I did actually hear him explaining that the printouts of my connection speed tests AND BT tests showing over 30Mb that he was holding in his hand at the time did clearly demonstrate that my connection HAD maintained over 30Mb speeds for a prolonged period way byond the DLM training period.
Most ISP agents, & apparently BT staff genuinely believe the DLM training period for VDSL2/FTTC services is still the traditional 10 days, DESPITE BT's OWN SIN 498 DOCUMENT STATING IT IS EITHER ON THE FIRST DAY IF SERIOUS ERRORS ARE SEEN, OR THE NEXT DAY AS LONG AS AT LEAST 15 MINUTES CONNECTION TIME HAS BEEN MAINTAINED (words to that effect anyway)
A google search will soon find a downloadable version of the document.
Continuing to chase matters & speaking to Plusnet about not getting what you are paying for?
Unfortunately, you and I ARE getting what we pay for - "up to 40 Mb".
There are no SLAs or guarantees in place for "Residential accounts" regarding minimum speeds beyond the FTR of 15Mb.
I had a full head of hair when I started chasing matters.
I'm not now called Bald_Eagle for no reason
Noise was 31dB & noise margin was 6.1?
I suspect the 31dB may have been attenuation rather than noise.
When my connection's DS attenuation was as high as 30.2dB, I achieved DS sync speeds of around 18Mb (and much lower on occasions).
For ADSL frequencies, the general accepted rule of thumb for a reasonable quality all copper D-side, with SNRM of 6dB is 13.8dB per km.
The ADSL Max Speed calculator on kitz.co.uk suggests a line length of 2.2km for an attenuation value of 30dB.
The higher end of VDSL2/FTTC frequencies are much more attenuated than the lower ADSL fequencies, but NOBODY has yet confirmed any typical attenuation values per km for them.
I certainly only get any bit-loading at all from the lower 2 out of the 3 VDSL:2 DS frequency bands available for the 17a profile.
My attenuation value for the lowest frequency band is now always around 21.7dB.
For the 2nd DS frequency band it is always around 62.9dB.
For the3rd DS frequency band it is always N/A - simply too high to achieve anything at all.
Precedents for lower speeds than the estimates?
I agree that the vast majority of FTTC are pleasantly surprised to sustain speeds well in excess of their estimated DS speeds (just like I was for the first month), which improved even further for them when profiles switched from 8c to 17a (higher frequencies).
I am convinced that my own line length MUST be substantially LESS than the currently reported 1000m. Otherwise, how the hell could I have sustained 32Mb or so for such a long time?
I am also convinced that my D-side still has a repairable fault, but nobody can be bothered to look for it & fix it.
For your connection, I'm not sure at all.
Did the engineer actually conduct a TDR test on your D-side to check for "issues/faults"? I suspect not
Lines of communication from you & I, via our ISP to BT Whoever's control centre, through the various channels to the engineer, then all the way back to you and I don't appear too fantastic either.
The use of an unlocked modem, so that you could monitor your own connection's stats, MAY be of some slight assistance, but there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone such as our ISP or BT Whoever would actually act upon any stats / graphs.
A few visiting engineers have openly admitted that they don't fully understand FTTC technology, as the training they have received from their employer has been pretty p1ss poor, to coin a phrase.
Grim reading, I'm afraid. Sorry.
Paul.
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Sore fingers after that post?
FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 39999 US: capped to 2000
NILN exchange - 550m from cabinet
Netgear WNR1000
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Hi Paul and many thanks for your in depth reply. I had previously had a read of the 23 pager but you've managed to sum it all up in an extremely helpful manner!
Your absolutely correct on a number of your observations; BT Whoever engineers seem to have VERY little training in FTTC and like yours, mine admitted that I proabably knew more about than him....he didn't even know what DLM was...unbelieveable! Not their fault I guess but BT whoevers for not investing in the correct training
Agree also on the VERY poor communication between ISP - BT - Engineer and Customer. Nobody seems to know exactly what they're talking about and thus everyone takes what the other is saying as gospel which results in the good old Chinese Whisper syndrome where the real facts get lost in translation.
As for my connection; Can someone ellaborate on these speed "caps" that are seemingly placed on certain lines? As I mentioned, the engineer said he spoke to a FTTC man who was working in the cab who insinuated that I had a 25MB cap on my line (which would nicely explain the current 22MB on my end with losses) but later, same engineer said he's spoken to someone else on the phone and there were no "caps", only 40/10 or 40/2?
Also, what do these "remote ressetters" actually do? You mention having your profile reset from 15 - 23/24 but that they wouldn't attempt 40....this implies that they ARE putting some form of "caps" on lines else surely the DLM would just apply 40 and then bring it down as neccesary? Presumably they are not restting the DLM but applying "profiles" or "caps" to lines?
What is a TDR test? The only thing I saw him attach was the JDSU but like I say, he didn't appear that "clued up"....been the same guy on both visits unfortunately
You mention my attenuation at 31dB being on the large side....sorry to be so niave but what is this in laymens terms...noise on the line?
You also mention the 8c and 17a profiles. What are these, how do I find out what I'm on and what effect do they have? The engineer reckoned the cab was wired for 80/20 but I'm not sure if I can tell from that?
To be fair, my ISP have been pretty good at working on my behalf with BT (they are owned by them though!) and they would appear to think that my line is capable of much faster or else they wouldn't keep sending out engineers at cost to themselves and would surely state the same as what was quoted to you today "Your speed is within limits"? I have had contact with them this evening and they have been back in touch with BT who have promised to reset the DLM remotely this evening/tomorrow morning so we'll see what happens....I'm not holding my breath!
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Sore fingers after that post?
Haha,
I started typing it before you posted your last reply
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PS....anyone have any idea how the dslchecker comes up with its estimates? It must use some kind of formula to decide what to display as most seem to get the estimated speed or slightly higher? As such, the estimate for my line must be based upon something tangible....not just picking a random number out of thin air!
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If by DSLchecker you mean one where you plumb in your phone number and get an FTTC estimate
These are based on paper records for each phone line, that tries to estimate the speed for a line based on line gauge line length, and standards for cross talk/noise environment.
At its simplest it is metres of copper in the ground looked up on a VDSL2 Profile 8c graph. If you happen to have Al or poor joints then makes things worse
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Excellent, thanks Andrew!
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Sore fingers after that post? No, I don't think so. Our baldy_bird has had plenty of practice and he can type to infinity (& beyond) on that topic, once he has the "bit within his beak".
-----------------------------------------------------
100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Edited by burakkucat (Fri 20-Jan-12 21:26:56)
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Our baldy_bird has had plenty of practice and he can type to infinity (& beyond) on that topic.
Infinity you say, well this thread is about FTTC after all, although not BT's.
Sorry...couldn't resist that one 
FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 39999 US: capped to 2000
NILN exchange - 550m from cabinet
Netgear WNR1000
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Hi Stranex,
I'll admit that I don't have definite and/or "officially" confirmed answers to most of your queries, but I'll have a stab at some of them.
Your absolutely correct on a number of your observations; BT Whoever engineers seem to have VERY little training in FTTC and like yours, mine admitted that I proabably knew more about than him....he didn't even know what DLM was...unbelieveable! Not their fault I guess but BT whoevers for not investing in the correct training
I do have sympathy for the engineers who get sent out to deal with quite technical matters, without the benefit of sufficient technical training, especially when they have to try to remain polite & professional when dealing with some obviously very disgruntled end users.
As for my connection; Can someone ellaborate on these speed "caps" that are seemingly placed on certain lines? As I mentioned, the engineer said he spoke to a FTTC man who was working in the cab who insinuated that I had a 25MB cap on my line (which would nicely explain the current 22MB on my end with losses) but later, same engineer said he's spoken to someone else on the phone and there were no "caps", only 40/10 or 40/2?
Not at all sure about that one. Different people at the service providers' ends appear to state different personal opinions as fact, which does not help us poor old confused customers.
One engineer phoned my ISP while he was at the cabinet, asking why I was looking for more speed than 22Mb, when he could actually see 22Mb at the cabinet.
Thankfully, my ISP explained that I actually have an "up to 40Mb" FTTC service.
Maybe that engineer had been mis-informed that I had an ADSL2+ (up to 24Mb) service?
Also, what do these "remote ressetters" actually do? You mention having your profile reset from 15 - 23/24 but that they wouldn't attempt 40....this implies that they ARE putting some form of "caps" on lines else surely the DLM would just apply 40 and then bring it down as neccesary? Presumably they are not restting the DLM but applying "profiles" or "caps" to lines?
Despite trying a number of times via my ISP, I have never got a satisfactory answer to that one.
My ISP promised me that they would be instructing BT Whoever to reset my connection at full speed so that it would initially be seen as a brand new installation, thus allowing DLM to have its wicked way with it as it felt fit.
I'm not 100% sure that request ever filtered through to the right people. In fact I'm not even 1% sure that it did.
What is a TDR test? The only thing I saw him attach was the JDSU but like I say, he didn't appear that "clued up"....been the same guy on both visits unfortunately
See this link:-
TDR stuff
Basically, it is a cable test, using a special gadget, such as an EXFO as mentioned in the link, or a 'Hawk', 'Mole', JDSU etc. that detects "faults" such as high resistance, open ends, short circuits, redundant side connections etc. that cause problems for broadband connections.
They also estimate the distance of the fault from whichever end of the cable the test is conducted from.
You mention my attenuation at 31dB being on the large side....sorry to be so niave but what is this in laymens terms...noise on the line?
I suppose you could more or less say reduction in place of attenuation.
e.g. sound transmission reduction/attenuation through a plasterboard wall is achieved by inserting sound attenuating material (sound-proofing).
The amount of sound reduction (attenuation) is measured in decibels (dB).
A high dB value means high attenuation.
For broadband, attenuation means signal reduction.
dB is actually a logaritmic scale, so 30dB is massively more than double 15dB
The longer the cable length, the higher the attenuation.
Obvious problems can be spotted by seeing high attenuation values on short lengths of cable.
You also mention the 8c and 17a profiles. What are these, how do I find out what I'm on and what effect do they have? The engineer reckoned the cab was wired for 80/20 but I'm not sure if I can tell from that?
When FTTC was first introduced in the UK (BT Infinity et al) it used a "profile" named 8c.
The 8c profile had 2 sets of bit-loading (data) band plan tones.
The lower band plan delivered data bits at roughly the equaivalent of ADSL frequencies, with the higher band plan using even higher frequencies.
The 8c profile could deliver a maximum of around 40Mb.
To double "theoretical" speeds to 80Mb or so, even higher frequencies are used (a 3rd band plan set of bit-loading tones)
Now, cable doesn't really transmit very high frequencies too well. So longer connections won't see much (if any) advantage from the available highest frequencies as the cable properties will simply attenuate the signal down too much.
I am now on the higher frequency 17a profile (no choice in the matter - the switch from 8c to 17a was all implemented automatically)
Because I can see my connection's statistics I note that I don't currently get that much from the middle frequency band plan tones and I get absolutely nothing from the highest frequency band plan tones.
Unfortunately I was unable to see my stats when my connection was performing within MY acceptable limits, so I have no data for comparison purposes
My own connection problems had started well before the switch to the 17a profile though, so the switch has nothing to do with my current lower speeds.
In fact, most users on "medium" length connections (who were achieving around 30Mb to 35Mb saw quite an improvement following the switch.
Those already achieving the full monty 40Mb saw no improvement to sync speeds/throughput as speeds are still capped at a maximum of 40Mb.
Their theoretical (attainable rates) have shot up, to well over 100Mb in some cases.
A limited number of users are currently trialing the "up to 80Mb" FTTC service.
Those users close to the cabinets will eventually be able to see really high speeds, while users like you & me won't.
To be fair, my ISP have been pretty good at working on my behalf with BT (they are owned by them though!) and they would appear to think that my line is capable of much faster or else they wouldn't keep sending out engineers at cost to themselves and would surely state the same as what was quoted to you today "Your speed is within limits"?
Are you aware that I am also a Plusnet customer?
I believe that if an actual "fault" is found & repaired, BT Whoever stand the cost.
If no fault is found or your own internal wiring is proven to be the cause, you personally take the risk of standing the cost. I thimk it is around £160 inc VAT at the moment)
I have had contact with them this evening and they have been back in touch with BT who have promised to reset the DLM remotely this evening/tomorrow morning so we'll see what happens....I'm not holding my breath!
You can't afford to hold your breath. You would just end up dead
Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Jan-12 22:27:08)
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Infinity you say, well this thread is about FTTC after all, although not BT's.
Sorry...couldn't resist that one I'm glad that someone has noticed my intended humour!
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100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
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Our baldy_bird has had plenty of practice and he can type to infinity (& beyond) on that topic.
Infinity you say, well this thread is about FTTC after all, although not BT's.
Remind me again, who owns Plusnet?
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Sore fingers after that post? No, I don't think so. Our baldy_bird has had plenty of practice and he can type to infinity (& beyond) on that topic, once he has the "bit within his beak".
My one typing finger on each hand has fully hardened over the last few months, so no soreness at all now.
The bit is certainly in range of my beak tonight.
p.s. It's currently £21.00.
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Using that logic all FTTC is BT's, since BT, oh i mean, BT Openreach, oh i mean Openreach operate the network and they are owned by BT.
Actually never mind.....I had enough reading to do for the "it's BT openreach" "no it's Openreach" argument
FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 39999 US: capped to 2000
NILN exchange - 550m from cabinet
Netgear WNR1000
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Using that logic all FTTC is BT's, since BT, oh i mean, BT Openreach, oh i mean Openreach operate the network and they are owned by BT. Yes, that's what I meant - *all* FTTC is BT's.
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As for my connection; Can someone ellaborate on these speed "caps" that are seemingly placed on certain lines? As I mentioned, the engineer said he spoke to a FTTC man who was working in the cab who insinuated that I had a 25MB cap on my line (which would nicely explain the current 22MB on my end with losses) but later, same engineer said he's spoken to someone else on the phone and there were no "caps", only 40/10 or 40/2? 40/10 and 40/2 are the product specs. Only those can be ordered. I'm guessing that these are set in the DLM.
However if the DLM gets stroppy about things:- If DLM intervenes it will set a capped profile with a maximum rate and a minimum rate, where the minimum rate is set at approximately half of the maximum rate. That refers just to the downstream I think. Whether or not, the downstream is what is important in the OP's case.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Edited by RobertoS (Fri 20-Jan-12 23:29:21)
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The bit is certainly in range of my beak tonight.
p.s. It's currently £21.00. ACK.
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100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
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HI Stranex,
I have had contact with them this evening and they have been back in touch with BT who have promised to reset the DLM remotely this evening/tomorrow morning so we'll see what happens....I'm not holding my breath!
Any news?
Paul
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Hi Paul, only just got in from work hence the late post;
So, got a message from PN this morning that DLM ahd been resest and that there was no cap on my line. Unfortunately this has not resulted in any faster speeds....I'm now at 20.5 and dropping, expecting to get knocked back to 18 in a few days.
Does anyone know if a DLM reset would show as a service interuption? I only ask beacuse I don't trust PN as far I (wish I) could throw them and the service graph they've inserted with the message shows no interuptions since engineer left yesterday pm....5 hours before I was told about the DLM getting reset last night. Am I just being ever hopeful in thinking that the DLM has not actually been reset or would it not show as an interuption?
Also, with the graph, the following was attached;
KBDBRAS N.A. Profile Info N.A.
Problem Explanation: [GEA504] An issue has been identified. Appointment Required. Resolution/Recommendation: Report fault to BTW for OR investigation.
GEA Service TestTest Outcome Fail
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_1607
Description Circuit performance appears unstable due to mean time between errors issues. Continue submitting trouble report
Main Fault Location CA
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 21.8
Upstream Speed 1.9
Appointment Required Y
Fault Report Advised Y
Profile Name 0.128M-40M Downstream, Interleaving Off - 0.128M-2M Upstream, Interleaving Off
Now if anyone knows what any of this means then I'd be very pleased to hear from them! It seems to indicate some kind of fault and a fault loaction (CA = Cab maybe?) but this could of course have been from prior to the engineer visit yesterday......?
So where does all this leave me? Two aftrenoons off work for OR appointments, a new 18month contract signed on the basis of an estimated speed which is 40% more than I'm actually able to get and a 15 year plusnet customer who is very disgrunteld.....not a great outcome I'd suggest!
Whilst I FULLY appreciate that (as others have mentioned) the estimated speed is just that, the fact that 99.99% of the population seem to acheive in excess of their FTTC estimate would lead one to think that they too would get very near, if not in excess of estimate. I'm no legal expert but I don't hold out any hope for me getting out my contract due to word "estimate" (even if it can actaully be construed as a min estimate from others experience) and as such, will just have to sit out the next 17 months and hope FTTP, Virgin cable or some other faster technology comes my way in the meantime
I know many here will state that it's BT Whoever who are at "fault" due to it being their estimate, not Plusnets, but as PN are part of BT Group I would expect better communication between the two.
So, the moral is, if you've recently been offered FTTC due to the increased availability at longer lines lengths from the cab, think long and hard about what you're doing. Maybe ask around the neighbours to see what they're getting rather than trusting the estimated speed and be prepared to only get 15MB no matter what the estimate says (that is the minimum guaranteed speed but not widely advertised). Oh, and if your ISP offer to send out engineers to try and rectify the problem, look on the forums and know what it is you have to ask them and what to look for.....my engineer admitted I probably knew more about FTTC than him....am I only knew cos I'd looked it up here and on the web the night before....unbeleiveable!
I hope that as a result of my experience others do not get "caught out" and that BT Whoever amend their estimated speeds for others near my property. IF I find out that one of my neighbours (who I know share the same cabling) get much faster speeds on their FTTC then I'll be even more seething than at present!
As one last thought in vain hope of getting something faster (!), can I ask whether upload and download speeds behave in the same way with regard to distance from cab? For example, I've got a 2000kbps upload profile and see 1.56 at present (approx 25% loss).....presumably this does NOT mean that I should see a 25% loss on my download speed (30MB from 40MB profile)? You can't balme me for trying!
Oh....and one last thing (promise!). I took a drive around today to try and see where my cab was. Now OR engineer explained where it was and I found it (about 1km away by road). However, I also found another cab in the other direction which I measured as being slightly closer (about 0.8-0-9 km). Can you ask to move cabs or does your line have to go via a specific cab? I think I know the answer but inrtigued to hear peoples thoughts.
In the meantime, If anyone fancies crashing their car into my cab or tearing the alu cable out of the road then feel free lol
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Anyway, he then phoned up to get DLM reset.....OR guy on other end refused!! I asked to speak to him but guy on other end said he wouldn't speak with me "he's not my customer"!??!? Hang on.....I've got a OR line coming into my house and I have an OR modem sitting on my wall! Anyway, he wouldn't speak to me, end of.
You aren't his customer, OR maintain and provide lines on behalf of various CP's.
If 1.2k is correct, then that's a long line for FTTC.
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Can you ask to move cabs or does your line have to go via a specific cab? I think I know the answer but inrtigued to hear peoples thoughts. Basically no .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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What is a TDR test? The only thing I saw him attach was the JDSU but like I say, he didn't appear that "clued up"....been the same guy on both visits unfortunately
Time Delay Reflectometer. A 'mole' a tester which will display the line showing any discrepancy's, like HR's or short circuits. This test is one of the functions of a JDSU tester.
Also, what do these "remote ressetters" actually do? You mention having your profile reset from 15 - 23/24 but that they wouldn't attempt 40
The 'resetters' Openreach FTTC SMC, will arrange/order a resync/recalc of the line. This will reset the DSLAM port back to 40/10 or 40/2, it's original state. This is usually used when the sync rate has adjusted due to a fault, it then will stabilise to whatever the line will do.
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Main Fault Location CA
Customer Apparatus.
Can you ask to move cabs or does your line have to go via a specific cab?
No.
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Main Fault Location CA Customer Apparatus.
Can you ask to move cabs or does your line have to go via a specific cab? No.
, and yes.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Hi Stranex,
Does anyone know if a DLM reset would show as a service interuption? I only ask beacuse I don't trust PN as far I (wish I) could throw them and the service graph they've inserted with the message shows no interuptions since engineer left yesterday pm....5 hours before I was told about the DLM getting reset last night. Am I just being ever hopeful in thinking that the DLM has not actually been reset or would it not show as an interuption?
I am familiar with the graph you mention as Plusnet have provided quite a few for my connection over the last few months.
I have noticed, & Plusnet's Alex R is also aware, that many connection re-syncs (certainly for FTTC) occur very quickly (around 16 seconds in duration).
Mostly, these re-syncs are not reported in Plusnet's logs as the PPP session & dynamically allocated IP address are maintained.
Therefore they will not show in that graph.
Additionally those re-syncs will only be reported in the HG612's built in logs as the router will be blissfully unaware of them.
BT Whoever's intentional decision to only supply LOCKED modems could appear a rather dishonest or immoral decision to any cynics amongst us!!!!!
I can only assume that a DLM reset also occurs so quickly that it will not be reported in Plusnet's logs (even though re-synced speeds can & do differ vastly from the previous sync speed on occasions).
It was only when I was able to provide graphs for my own connection that Plusnet accepted that my connection was not actually as stable as they thought it was.
Despite that acknowledgement, Plusnet still insist on telling me that my connection has been "up" for many days, when my graphed evidence proves otherwise.
e.g my connection re-synced on the fly today at only 23370k (down from 29212K on Monday following a few on the fly re-syncs that lowered speeds each time).
Today's re-sync & most of the others will NOT be shown in Plusnet's logs as they are not shown in my router's logs.
Also, with the graph, the following was attached;
KBDBRAS N.A. Profile Info N.A.
Problem Explanation: [GEA504] An issue has been identified. Appointment Required. Resolution/Recommendation: Report fault to BTW for OR investigation.
GEA Service TestTest Outcome Fail
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_1607
Description Circuit performance appears unstable due to mean time between errors issues. Continue submitting trouble report
Main Fault Location CA
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 21.8
Upstream Speed 1.9
Appointment Required Y
Fault Report Advised Y
Profile Name 0.128M-40M Downstream, Interleaving Off - 0.128M-2M Upstream, Interleaving Off
I asume the comment "Description Circuit performance appears unstable due to mean time between errors issues." must have been manually added from your engineer's feedback notes.
Plusnet have informed me that they are unable to see "errors" & have to rely upon engineers' reports for FTTC connections.
Now they know that some users have access to the HG612 modem's stats & are able to generate graphs that clearly identify the timing and magnitude of errors, they are begining to accept that some connections are indeed quite a bit more unstable than their own reports would suggest.
The comment Profile Name 0.128M-40M Downstream, Interleaving Off - 0.128M-2M Upstream, Interleaving Off would suggest that the detail was obtained very soon (if not immediately) after a DLM reset as connections with high error rates tend to have Interleaving turned on at varying depths for Downstream & Upstream independently.
Also the profile name is 0.128M-40M, which does suggest that DLM started a new training period with the full range of speeds.
This is from a very recent report for my connection:-
Profile Name 16.2M-32.4M Downstream, Interleaving Low - 3.6M-7.2M Upstream, Interleaving Off
I can also see from my own logs that DS Interleaving is ON (it had a depth of 441 at the time Plusnet generated their report & US Interleaving was OFF (the US value was 1).
I'm afraid I don't know what the various codes mean in your own report.
Those reports are always dated & timed.
Alex R updated my ticket at 1:09pm, Friday 20 Jan 2012 & the report concluded with RADIUS: One Day, 20:13:46 (on going)
Summary: All within limits.
Does similar detail from your own report give an indication as to when it was generated?
This comment was also added to my ticket:-
"The fault threshold rate for your connection is 15Mbps. Maximum stable rate is not a figure that we see when we test your connection and so as such the MSR is not applicable.
Testing shows your line in sync at 27.9Mbps for over 24 hours stable. As such all parameters are within the limits set by our supplier."
You are also achieving over 15Mb, so...................
I know many here will state that it's BT Whoever who are at "fault" due to it being their estimate, not Plusnets, but as PN are part of BT Group I would expect better communication between the two.
I understand that OFCOM do not allow BT Whoever to show any favouritism to any ISP, even those within the BT group (Equivalence).
Any ISPs owned by BT Whoever have to operate as completely separate businesses.
I made exactly the same comment to Plusnet when it appeared the Chinese whispers were causing further problems.
Some ISPs do appear better than others though when describing connection problems & chasing matters accordingly, without breaching the equivalence terms.
As one last thought in vain hope of getting something faster (!), can I ask whether upload and download speeds behave in the same way with regard to distance from cab? For example, I've got a 2000kbps upload profile and see 1.56 at present (approx 25% loss).....presumably this does NOT mean that I should see a 25% loss on my download speed (30MB from 40MB profile)? You can't balme me for trying!
The US & DS attenuation values are separate, so the 25% you mention won't really have any relevance to DS speeds.
Very loosely, for FTTC connections, your BT IP profile (BRAS Rate) will be approx 97% of sync speed & throughput will be approx 97% of your profile (assuming no contention at the time a normal speed test is run).
So your throughput from your 21.8Mb sync speed will be approximately 20.5Mb.
BT's speed/performance test usually appears a little more conservative than other online speed tests.
I used to see 1.67Mb throughput when I was on the 2Mb US cap.
I am currently trialing the 10Mb US profile, but I only ever see just below 5Mb throughput as my US attenuation is too high to achieve any better.
Oh....and one last thing (promise!). I took a drive around today to try and see where my cab was. Now OR engineer explained where it was and I found it (about 1km away by road). However, I also found another cab in the other direction which I measured as being slightly closer (about 0.8-0-9 km). Can you ask to move cabs or does your line have to go via a specific cab? I think I know the answer but inrtigued to hear peoples thoughts.
I have had it confirmed that a cab switch is just not possible.
There may be an incredibly slim chance of getting connected to the closer cab if you ordered a new telepnone line, but I suspect a spare pair in the cable from your current cab would be used anyway.
Finally, it may or may not assist in troubleshooting your connection issues, but the only way to see any useful connection stats (whenever you want/need to see them) would be to obtain access to an unlocked modem.
Paul.
Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Jan-12 00:19:41)
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Just a bit of additional info re upstream.
All 10Mbps upstreams I have seen here give speed test uploads of around 8100 to 8200kbps. So there does seem to be a roughly 20% consistent loss somewhere. This would tie in with the same percentage on 2Mbps upstream.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Edited by RobertoS (Sun 22-Jan-12 00:54:23)
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Hi Bob,
All 10Mbps upstreams I have seen here give speed test uploads of around 8100 to 8200kbps. So there does seem to be a roughly 20% consistent loss somewhere. This would tie in with the same percentage on 2Mbps upstream.
I can only achieve around 4.8Mb throughput from my 10Mb US profile.
My US:-
| Text | 1
23
4 | Max: Upstream rate = 5974 Kbps
Line Attenuation(dB): 8.4 52.7 64.0
Signal Attenuation(dB): 14.4 52.0 N/A |
I achieved 1.67Mb throughput on the 2Mb US profile.
Paul.
Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Jan-12 01:03:01)
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I meant an actual 10Mbps sync, sorry. Not the product. Should have made that clearer.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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& my 4.8Mb throughtput is roughly 80% of sync speed, so also 20% US loss.
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Thanks again everyone, especially Zarjaz for his professional input to many of my questions and to Paul who's excellently detailed responses stand out and give this forum a very well deserved reputation!
A little update for you all;
My speed seems to have stabilised at around 20.5MB but following a slightly harshly worded response to my PN support query, I have had contact from them again via one of their Analysts who seems to be going out of his way to assist (and pacify!)
He basically said that BT Whoever have confirmed the DLM reset and that my "profile" is unrestricted (ie up to 40MB). He did however include a test result from this morning that is very similar to that i posted yesterday. He has said that these test results means "we can now see some errors on your line" and that they have asked the supplier to investigate. I have responded asking if he can be more specific as to what kind of errors they are seeing and why they maybe didn't see them before.
So, a (very faint) glimmer of hope that the engineer has missed something on the line but I will update when I hear something back.
Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Jan-12 22:01:27)
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He did however include a test result from this morning that is very similar to that i posted yesterday. He has said that these test results means "we can now see some errors on your line" and that they have asked the supplier to investigate. I have responded asking if he can be more specific as to what kind of errors they are seeing and why they maybe didn't see them before.
Hmm, that's strange as I received this response in one of my own tickets:-
" it's hard to say what error rates are normal or would cause an issue as we see no stats from your line with regards to errors at any point from any of our testing systems. This is a shame as they can be helpful in resolving faults."
At least you now have the confirmation that your profile is currently unrestricted & that the supplier has been asked to investigate.
Paul.
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Interesting indeed Paul, even more so with this evenings update!
The sage continues.....
Heard back from another PN rep today who would appear to be "high level" support as he mentioned having been asked to look into the case by another member of support.
He has written a very thorough response which in a nutshell says;
DLM rest
BRAS proifle updated
Speedtest I ran last night has provided them with some "interesting new information as it revealed a configured profile of 23mbps"
A small number of errored seconds (33 out 900) = 0.03% error) "which in no way would account for my low performance or the DLM reprofiling my line"
A suspected software inconsistency that suppliers have failed to resolve
In addition he stated that PN do not find this acceptable and have escalated fault for review to suppliers "High Level Escalations" as no reason for issue to have continued as long as it has and no benefit from throwing further engineer resources at a problem which appears to be a problem in BT network itself.
All this sounds very positive and I commend PN or their efforts but I can't help but feel that the "network issue" here is purely my distance from the cab, alu cable and an inaccurate speed estimate issued by BT. I do hope I am proven wrong and that there is some other type of fault at play.....I guess we'll find out in due course!
Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Jan-12 19:57:01)
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Hi Stranex,
Thanks for the update.
Food for thought in there somewhere, especially mention of the errored seconds that Plusnet now say they can see, along with the suspected software inconsistency.
Please keep us posted as I for one will be very interested in the final outcome.
Paul.
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A small number of errored seconds (33 out 900) = 0.03% error)
33 out of 900, or out of 9000?
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[33 out of 900, or out of 9000?
[/quote]
Sorry, cut and pasted his meesage but yes you're absolutely correct, 33 out of 900 is more like 3.6%! I was so pleased to hear something back I completely overlooked that......will contact him and let him know!
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A small number of errored seconds (33 out 900) = 0.03% error) 33 out of 900, or out of 9000?
Ummm!
Ever heard the saying "Hoist by his own petard"? Try again .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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