How will fibre be laid?

How do Bt lay the fibre do it follow the original lines? If it does then that means fibre coming here will once again bend back on itself like our lines do?

i presume they don't dig up the road?

It's actually "blown" along the existing ducting. Imagine ducting is a pipe...the fibre cabling is blown along the duting, It's not a fast process, I think about 100metres an hour.

Tubing is placed in the ducts 1st and the fiber is blown through the tubing.
Existing duct will be used as much as possible. May need to dig to clear blockages/collapsed ducts.

If it does then that means fibre coming here will once again bend back on itself like our lines do?

Shouldn't be an issue.

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-12 12:19:48)

Zyborg

Presume you are asking about FTTP

As the fibre distance doesn't matter, they will follow the cheapest route.

So if ducted, blown down the existing route, then a new piece of subduct to your premises and blown through. If overhead, a new hollow drop 'wire' will be provided then fibre blown through.

The last part of the route is what makes it a two day install, Preparation on the first day, install in the house and set-up on the 2nd day.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If it does then that means fibre coming here will once again bend back on itself like our lines do?

Does it matter? The fibre could go via Glasgow, Norwich, Dover and Bristol, and you would still receive the full data rates.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If it does then that means fibre coming here will once again bend back on itself like our lines do?

Does it matter? The fibre could go via Glasgow, Norwich, Dover and Bristol, and you would still receive the full data rates.

cheers people,

i know what ducting is, just in case it makes me sound thicker than I am i thought that it would via the existing network.

Fibre uses light, so even fibre have limitations, I presume there are boosters along the length to make sure that it is to its full strength.


@kitcat, i am on about FTTC, we are suppose to have our exchange updated to FTTC in June and I was chatting to a neighbour about it and they seemed interested, but was a bit lost on how it would work since our broadband here is not that good.

Our cables goes from the exchange, doubles back to the old Ex-exchange by our Cathedral and then comes back up to us, so about 2 miles in total. via road, ok so the lines don't always go via road, but it gives you a idea.

i told him that it would be fibre to the cabinet and that the distance from the exchange should make no difference, just the distance from the cabinet.

A BT open reach engineer i was chatting to at a mates place last week told me the cabinet that I was likely to be connected to, which would be ok, apart from the fact it is not there

I am still looking about going Wireless if the price is right.

Fibre amplifiers are needed every 100km or so on sub-sea links. So, on terrestrial I would expect much te same.

Repeaters arnt necessary or used for FTTx. The distances do not require it.
The GigE links from Cab to headend are good for around 40km or more and have no repeaters in the route.

Many thanks for that, I had heard they blow it along the duct but couldnt work out how as we have nearly full old clay ducts laid in around 1952.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

@kitcat, i am on about FTTC, we are suppose to have our exchange updated to FTTC in June and I was chatting to a neighbour about it and they seemed interested, but was a bit lost on how it would work since our broadband here is not that good.

OK - forget all that stuff about fibre, ducting, blowing etc - it just doesn't apply to FTTC in any way that will *really* affect you.

Your cabinet (so long as you really do have one) will gain a twin "fibre cabinet" nearby (usually next to it, but certainly within 100 metres). The fibre will go to that cabinet, and could be routed anywhere - and might not even go back to your current exchange.

Your internet connection will then (still) be carried over copper, but only on the segment of copper from the cabinet to the house, plus a new segment of copper that goes between the original cabinet and its new twin. The connection is a variant of DSL called VDSL2.

Our cables goes from the exchange, doubles back to the old Ex-exchange by our Cathedral and then comes back up to us, so about 2 miles in total. via road, ok so the lines don't always go via road, but it gives you a idea.

i told him that it would be fibre to the cabinet and that the distance from the exchange should make no difference, just the distance from the cabinet.

Spot on. If the distance is less than around 600 metres, then so much the better.

A BT open reach engineer i was chatting to at a mates place last week told me the cabinet that I was likely to be connected to, which would be ok, apart from the fact it is not there

And that is the worry... FTTC can only be supplied if you have an existing cabinet. If there is no cabinet (ie you are on an exchange-direct line) then you won't be able to get FTTC.

You'd better try finding that cabinet

In reply to a post by Ribble:

Repeaters arnt necessary or used for FTTx. The distances do not require it.
The GigE links from Cab to headend are good for around 40km or more and have no repeaters in the route.

But fibre only use light and light can only go so far before it fades

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

OK - forget all that stuff about fibre, ducting, blowing etc - it just doesn't apply to FTTC in any way that will *really* affect you.

Your cabinet (so long as you really do have one) will gain a twin "fibre cabinet" nearby (usually next to it, but certainly within 100 metres). The fibre will go to that cabinet, and could be routed anywhere - and might not even go back to your current exchange.

Your internet connection will then (still) be carried over copper, but only on the segment of copper from the cabinet to the house, plus a new segment of copper that goes between the original cabinet and its new twin. The connection is a variant of DSL called VDSL2.

I know about that bit, just wondered how it was laid really.

Spot on. If the distance is less than around 600 metres, then so much the better.

And that is the worry... FTTC can only be supplied if you have an existing cabinet. If there is no cabinet (ie you are on an exchange-direct line) then you won't be able to get FTTC.

You'd better try finding that cabinet

There is no way the cables here come straight from the exchange, we are to far away. I had a look on Google maps and found two cabinets close by, one i know about as i walk past it to work, the other i remember seeing, but i always thought it was too far away. It turns out going by Google maps, they are around 250-350 yards away from here, but Mr Bt man said there was a cabinet in a certain road and there is not, i had a walk and had a look on google maps and there is not one where he said.

As I said, I can't see myself going the fibre route to be honest, but my neighbour looks like that is what he wants to do. he does have a family so I can understand why he wants to go fibre. the problem is he is with Sky broadband and at the moment they don't seem to be bothering with fibre so he will have to change ISp. i think he is with Sky broadband,


we will wait and see, it could all go belly up and not be here until next year knowing BT.

it could all go belly up and not be here until next year knowing BT.

That also applies to me, you, and anyone.

Carpe diem.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

But fibre only use light and light can only go so far before it fades

Don't knock light - it seems to be able to travel halfway across the universe and still be visible to the naked eye [1] .

Light itself doesn't really fade with distance; it simply gets spread-out (the inverse square law) and may be absorbed by the medium it passes through. You can think of fibre as "confining" the light so that it doesn't spread-out, but absorption still takes place over long distances.

As MHC and Ribble have indicated, the fibre runs used for FTTC are much too short to require amplifiers or repeaters. The fibre to my cabinet comes from a neighbouring exchange more than five miles away, and BT-OR managed to make it available within three weeks of the date they originally stated.

[1] http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/20...

So of us are dependent on the BDUK lottery

I think many see fibre as new and unknown, reality is that BT has been using it for many many years. Just has always previously involved you spending £10,000 or so to get it installed and a few thous a month in rental.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Ribble:

Repeaters arnt necessary or used for FTTx. The distances do not require it.
The GigE links from Cab to headend are good for around 40km or more and have no repeaters in the route.

But fibre only use light and light can only go so far before it fades

I suspect distance is not a problem for FTTC:

"The fourth generation of fiber-optic communication systems used optical amplification to reduce the need for repeaters and wavelength-division multiplexing to increase data capacity. These two improvements caused a revolution that resulted in the doubling of system capacity every 6 months starting in 1992 until a bit rate of 10 Tb/s was reached by 2001. In 2006 a bit-rate of 14 Tbit/s was reached over a single 160 km line using optical amplifiers"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber-optic_communication

and

"The current laboratory fiber optic data rate record, held by Bell Labs in Villarceaux, France, is multiplexing 155 channels, each carrying 100 Gbit/s over a 7000 km fiber"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber

Edited by Andrue (Thu 26-Jan-12 08:27:32)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think many see fibre as new and unknown, reality is that BT has been using it for many many years. Just has always previously involved you spending £10,000 or so to get it installed and a few thous a month in rental.

I'm curious to know whether FTTC changes anything for anyone who wants FTTP; is there any capacity within the FTTC fibre infrastructure to provide FTTP for those prepared to pay, albeit at a much lower cost than the kind of the numbers you mention, but probably more than in the handful of areas where FTTP has been rolled-out?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think many see fibre as new and unknown, reality is that BT has been using it for many many years. Just has always previously involved you spending £10,000 or so to get it installed and a few thous a month in rental.

One of my first design projects used fibre ... that was on a Cross Channel link. The year ... about 1980 ish.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

So of us are dependent on the BDUK lottery

[Chuckle]
(/me passes Andrew the right end of the stick).

I was talking about the mortality lottery .

DLS

If your cabinet has been enabled for FTTC that area is unlikely to get FTTP, (until the electronics wear out).

FTTP could use the same fibre cables ( Different fibres) as you would never provide just 2 fibres to a cab, Fibre cables usually come in 24/48/96 pairs, costs only go up about 15% with each size increment. A full cab with 288 workers ( unlikely) would use 4 pairs.

FTTP uses a Fibre pair to a splitter that will serve 32 installations so you wouldn't want to install those where you already have a cab. From splitter to house would be a blown fibre down a subduct, ( small flexible tube pulled in within a bigger duct).

FTTP has the benefit of not needing power to the splitters so the cost of getting power to the cabinet is not there.

Each area is therefore likely to be one or the other although both may be in the same exchange area.
.

Exactly. BT have already stated that FTTC and FTTP are mutually exculsive - you will get access via one or the other, with no choice of which.

At least that is their mindset in this rollout. They might start rethinking things when it is time for the next rollout - in perhaps another 10-15 years.

I reckon it is that kind of timescale where they will need to be contemplating FTTH to start overlaying the FTTC network - and who knows where fibre technology will be by then.

Zyborg

It sounds like you are in Hereford? Openreach may run the fibre the same as the copper cables or if there is a different 'easier' fibre route they will use that. What they are unlikely to do is lay new duct as that costs a fortune.

There is a spreadsheet that is available, linked to somewhere in these forums, that will tell you for a postcode which Cab you are on and what % of the postcode will get FTTC from that cab. Where there are multiple Cabs add the % together to see how many will not get FTTC.

The FTTC service is likely to be better than the wireless, and a vast improvement on your present ADSL.

I too am waiting to see some work on our cab / exchange which has also got a June date. Not seen anything yet. Want a race?

Modern electronics have a 5-8 year life, so there will need to be a decision in 5-8 years and that is likely to depend on the payback / penetration of High speed.

FTTP really needs high penetrations to cost in and present take ups are still low % according to Industry stats ( Virgin and BT) posted on here.

New developments should all be Fibre by then as these hit the penetration quickly as no copper alternative.

Thanks kitcat and WWWombat.

I wasn't very clear in my question; I was thinking along the lines of FTTP for Gbit/s (or more) connectivity rather than the Infinity-style FTTP. For instance, I know of at least a couple of cases of FTTC-enabled cabinets close to small business parks where Gbit-class internet access has been prohibitively expensive for many small businesses. Would the fibre infrastructure rolled-out for FTTC change that, or would completely new fibre have to be installed all the way back to an exchange? As kitcat says, the incremental cost of fibres is quite low, but is there capacity that can be tapped for other services? Perhaps it's something BT are keeping up their sleeve (or in their ducts) for now.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Modern electronics have a 5-8 year life.

Maybe that is the case with consumer electronics, where the best option is to throw away & replace.

But it certainly is *not* the case with industrial electronics. And I say that coming from a background of working as a developer in telco-rated exchange & network equipment manufacturing.

Of course it is true that the functionality might only have a limited life - so requiring a lot of software development. But the hardware stays out there for multiple decades - there is stuff out there still running from the beginning of my career 25 years ago.

Both System X and System Y (AXE) exchange equipment exist within BT's network, where 21CN replacement has stalled, and been put back to 2020. Hardware will be up to 35 years old by that point. Granted it is running in a well-maintained environment, but it is still almost an order of magnitude different from your ideas.

In this case, FTTC started life as a 40Mb technology, but it has changed within 2 years to an 80Mb technology, and within another 2-3 years will turn into a 100-120Mb technology.

I reckon that those advances - without hardware changes - will keep ahead of consumer demands for a while - at least for the bulk of consumers. And I'm definitely thinking of more than 10 years here.

And that ought to benefit rural consumers - because BT will have a chance to concentrate on getting service out to them without having to consider a whole new rollout again.

And once FTTP does start to be put in the ground (and up poles), then I expect that BT will be wanting a much longer life for those components - back up to the 4 decades, rather than 1.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

(Both System X and System Y (AXE) exchange equipment exist within BT's network), where 21CN replacement has stalled, and been put back to 2020.

Cos it doesn't work .

There is that too

And cos people were transferring too many voice circuits out of BT for it to be worth transferring over until they *really* need to.

Which means BT probably now have a vested interest in making that "modern" electronics last as long as possible... at least until they can downsize the number of exchange buildings, and have technology that lets them do exactly that.

Wwombat

What was produced in the 80s was much more robust than now, custom chips purpose designed,

What is produced now is mass produced, off the shelf components exactly as in consumer electronics.

They may last 8-10 years but that is not the design life.

They are also in much worse environmental conditions than exchange based equipment. Temperature extremes will cost years of life.

The fibres will last much longer in the ground, the optics may last longer but I wouldn't bet on over 15 years.

DLS

You wouldn't use FTTP for GBit delivery in the current way.

I believe there are WDM PONs out there in development that could do this but currently this would be direct fibre, which is why it costs more. This would use 30x as many fibres all the way back to the exchange and Core Bandwidth allowance would be higher. ( You would only want 1Gb if you intended to use it.)

Openreach have said something about 300Mb on FTTP for later in 2012 but most businesses that want that would want it upstream not downstream.

The connection to the core then starts to look like Internet peering not edge delivery and that is why it is more expensive.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Zyborg

It sounds like you are in Hereford? Openreach may run the fibre the same as the copper cables or if there is a different 'easier' fibre route they will use that. What they are unlikely to do is lay new duct as that costs a fortune.

Yep, i am in Hereford. i know they will not new ducts. Our old exchange used to be by the cathedral and part of the building is still used as a junction, which is why our cable still runs back to it.

My typical luck to be honest, people that lives further away than me get a better speed

There is a spreadsheet that is available, linked to somewhere in these forums, that will tell you for a postcode which Cab you are on and what % of the postcode will get FTTC from that cab. Where there are multiple Cabs add the % together to see how many will not get FTTC.

i heard about this spreadsheet, and seen it, but i thought the service have to be up and running to be on it.

Just strange that the BT bloke said about a cabinet that don't exist, mind you it was off the top of his head, and one of the cabs are not that far away from where he said, so maybe he got confused.

Still at least he got my mates service sorted out, just hope it keeps working.

The FTTC service is likely to be better than the wireless, and a vast improvement on your present ADSL.

i don't deny that fact, wireless top speed is around 35Megabits, but that will cost a lot more than what I am paying now. but i don't need 40Megabits, 8-10 would do me fine to be honest.

The advantage of the wireless system is that I don't need a phone line and cabn get everything to do with Bt out of my house.
If I could get a bit more speed out of my ADSL connection I would stay as i am, I may still stay as i am.

too am waiting to see some work on our cab / exchange which has also got a June date. Not seen anything yet. Want a race?

i will have to chat to my neighbour more often, I think he will keep more of a eye on fibre than me to be honest as he really wants it, fed up with the slow speeds here so he says. i told h8im not get excited, we may get it by the end of the year.