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Standard User NVB
(member) Tue 07-Feb-12 18:18:56
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Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[link to this post]
 
I'm on BT Infinity Option 2, have been for about a year and during that time I've never seen my útorrent upload speeds go any higher than approx 100 - 110 kB/s after midnight.

The BT traffic management table says ...
"We only apply traffic management controls to peak time P2P traffic, which is not time critical and can run at full speed during the off peak period".

My own experiences say otherwise. Yesterday morning around 4 am when my torrent upload speeds were hovering between a painfully slow 80 - 100 kB/s, I stopped the torrents and ran the Glastnost project test

results: 07 Feb 2012. time is 04.00

"Your ISP appears to rate limit your uploads

Details:
* Your ISP appears to rate limit your BitTorrent uploads. In our tests, uploads using control flows achieved up to 8411 Kbps while uploads using BitTorrent achieved up to 995 Kbps.

Details:
*There is no indication that your ISP rate limits your downloads."

Now I've posted about this before on the BT Infinity Community forum, the advice I got there was to either buy a seed box or VPN, both of which require extra cash that I don't have. There's no doubt in my mind that BT are throttling back P2P upstreams 24 hours a day, there doesn't seem to be an off-peak period if you use torrents. Downstreams are fine no problems, but off-peak upstreams are dire. My torrent client is connectable, the network settings are correctly configured for port forwarding and firewall. Why do BT restrict P2P upload speeds after midnight ?

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 01:58:25)

Standard User Matt182
(member) Tue 07-Feb-12 18:48:26
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Well, if even after peak times you are still having problems then it sounds like your bit torrent program is not configured correctly.

Check out the post by izools http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4089502-bt-... about what settings you can try.

-------------------------------------------------------------
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BT FTTC
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Standard User NVB
(member) Tue 07-Feb-12 19:02:55
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Matt182] [link to this post]
 
has nothing to do with the client as confirmed by the Glasnost test, my uploads were being restricted to 995 Kbps at 4am in the morning

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 01:59:08)


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Standard User Croftie
(member) Wed 08-Feb-12 00:17:45
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
The bit you quoted refers to download speed, further up the page it refers to the upload speed:

Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10495...

I'm only a light torrent user but rarely see up speeds of more than 1Mb.
Standard User NVB
(member) Wed 08-Feb-12 01:41:15
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Croftie:
The bit you quoted refers to download speed, further up the page it refers to the upload speed:

Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10495...

I'm only a light torrent user but rarely see up speeds of more than 1Mb.


The part I quoted was from the final paragraph of BT's Broadband usage policy and that's what I have a problem with, BT say they want to be completely transparent regarding their Traffic Management policy ...

"BT has always made sure information about our traffic management policy is available to customers and that is why we are in support of the Broadband Stakeholder Group's voluntary code of practice on traffic management."

but then they cover themselves with this statement ... "Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times."

Nowhere in any of those traffic management tables do BT say what they are actually doing, which is traffic managing P2P upload speeds around the clock. I don't have a problem with traffic management but I do have a problem when I want to upload something on P2P well after midnight, well outside the BT peak period and I see my upload speeds piddling along at 900 kB/s when my line is capable of 8 Mbit/sec. These off peak restrictions on P2P uploads are too severe
.

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 02:12:07)

Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 08-Feb-12 02:12:48
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
People aren't usually too worried about upstream direction. What exactly is it that you're sharing that requires especially high upload speeds?

---
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Standard User NVB
(member) Wed 08-Feb-12 02:23:13
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: orly] [link to this post]
 
and you represent all people do you ? and why are you particularly interested in what I am sharing. Isn't it funny how genuine question regarding traffic management have a tendency to get sidetracked into what individuals are doing with their bandwidth.

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 02:32:17)

Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Wed 08-Feb-12 02:33:32
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
He probably doesn't, but his (generalist) statement is still true. He's just checking whether your requirements really do fall into the specialist level, or whether you are misunderstanding both the page and your requirements.

Certainly the way you have presented your information from the BT policies page suggests you aren't *that* specialist, or *are* confused - otherwise that getout clause would (and should) have stood out a mile.
Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 08-Feb-12 02:37:22
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
It was a pretty simple question. You can answer it or not.

The fact is I can't recall seeing any complaints regarding upstream speeds from anyone on this forum and I've been around for quite a while. It seems a particularly niche requirement which is why I queried what exactly it was you were doing.

Limitting the upstream (if BT do that) for stuff like Bit Torrent would seem a rather sensible course of action. A) It's not particularly intrusive. B) Most users wouldn't care in the slightest as most people aren't particularly worried if the person leeching from them is getting 1Mbit or 10. C) Completely unfettered upload speeds could increase the demand on the network for little purpose (see the other points).

---
> Comparison chart of FTTC ISPs
> Got FTTC? Complete the survey

BT Infinity 8th July 2010
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600m (approx) to cabinet
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Edited by orly (Wed 08-Feb-12 02:52:56)

Standard User NVB
(member) Wed 08-Feb-12 02:57:30
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
The only thing that is obvious to me is that BT throttle P2P upload speeds 24 hours a day and that there is nothing in BT's Traffic Management policy to indicate that they are currently doing this, I'm pretty sure some people reading that policy will think OK well I'll just restrict my P2P file sharing to off-peak periods, but there are no off-peak periods. So yes I guess that does make me somewhat confused, naive even.

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 03:24:53)

Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 08-Feb-12 03:01:53
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Generally, and I believe I do speak for "most" people, people are entirely interested in download speeds.

I've demonstrated time and again on this forum that peak time P2P is essentially unthrottled, nevermind off peak time.Your own testing result seems to point in that direction too. I'd never bothered testing upload speeds.

If BT are indeed perma-limiting P2P uploads I'd be the first to congratulate them on a rather sensible, if poorly advertised, policy.

Again, if you'd care to divulge some more details on your particular requirements it'll be easy for anyone to advise you

---
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BT Infinity 8th July 2010
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Speedtest Tracking

Edited by orly (Wed 08-Feb-12 03:03:14)

Standard User NVB
(member) Wed 08-Feb-12 04:42:37
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: orly] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by orly:
Generally, and I believe I do speak for "most" people, people are entirely interested in download speeds.

I've demonstrated time and again on this forum that peak time P2P is essentially unthrottled, nevermind off peak time.Your own testing result seems to point in that direction too. I'd never bothered testing upload speeds.

If BT are indeed perma-limiting P2P uploads I'd be the first to congratulate them on a rather sensible, if poorly advertised, policy.

Again, if you'd care to divulge some more details on your particular requirements it'll be easy for anyone to advise you


You keep mentioning most people don't care, most people aren't worried, and that generally you believe you do speak for "most" people. Let me ask you a question, are you the sole embodiment for most people using BT Infinity in the UK, I think not, so please get over yourself.

My posts have been purely about upload speeds using P2P, it has never been about download speeds so lets get that straight, and keep to the subject. We are not discussing download speeds here.

The fact that you were unaware BT are using traffic management 24 hours a day for P2P users and that there is no off-peak period does not surprise me because BT don't mention it, and it's probably the reason you do not see more posts on this subject.

Your statements regarding users only being interested in download speeds is misguided and tells me you know nothing about P2P, which is all about sharing.

Lastly, nowhere in my posts have I asked for "unfettered upload speeds" in fact the opposite is true, I don't have a problem with traffic management, I do have a problem with the severity of the traffic management resulting in 90 - 100kB/s upload speeds which are slower than my old ADSL line, and that these restrictions are implemented around the clock.

The fact that you applaud BT's policy on strangling P2P uploads is of no consequence to me, I really should speak to the organ grinder

anyone have BT's CEO email address, TIA

.

Edited by NVB (Wed 08-Feb-12 04:57:08)

Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 08-Feb-12 11:53:11
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by NVB:
You keep mentioning most people don't care, most people aren't worried, and that generally you believe you do speak for "most" people. Let me ask you a question, are you the sole embodiment for most people using BT Infinity in the UK, I think not, so please get over yourself.

My posts have been purely about upload speeds using P2P, it has never been about download speeds so lets get that straight, and keep to the subject. We are not discussing download speeds here.

The fact that you were unaware BT are using traffic management 24 hours a day for P2P users and that there is no off-peak period does not surprise me because BT don't mention it, and it's probably the reason you do not see more posts on this subject.

Your statements regarding users only being interested in download speeds is misguided and tells me you know nothing about P2P, which is all about sharing.

Lastly, nowhere in my posts have I asked for "unfettered upload speeds" in fact the opposite is true, I don't have a problem with traffic management, I do have a problem with the severity of the traffic management resulting in 90 - 100kB/s upload speeds which are slower than my old ADSL line, and that these restrictions are implemented around the clock.

The fact that you applaud BT's policy on strangling P2P uploads is of no consequence to me, I really should speak to the organ grinder

anyone have BT's CEO email address, TIA

.


Touchy wink

I'd say, based on the complete lack of posts in relation to upload speeds, that most people do not care. My point stands.

Because of the lack of posts from this angle, my interest radar went off which is why I asked what it was you were doing. The fact that you instantly resorted to insults will provide answers to people reading this.

With regards to the CEO's email address. You already know this.

---
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Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 08-Feb-12 12:06:06
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: orly] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by orly:
People aren't usually too worried about upstream direction. What exactly is it that you're sharing that requires especially high upload speeds?


I would be more concerned as to why BT feel the need to limit upstream at all. As their traffic will be primarily one way meaning upstream should never be highly utilised.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Wed 08-Feb-12 14:24:13
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by NVB:
The only thing that is obvious to me is that BT throttle P2P upload speeds 24 hours a day and that there is nothing in BT's Traffic Management policy to indicate that they are currently doing this, I'm pretty sure some people reading that policy will think OK well I'll just restrict my P2P file sharing to off-peak periods, but there are no off-peak periods. So yes I guess that does make me somewhat confused, naive even.


I'm not sure how many people have to point you to the same single unambiguous sentence in the BT policy:
Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.


You might not like the fact that "at other times" has, in practice, become 24x7, but it is there in the policy, as clear as daylight.

To be honest, the whole policy is full of loopholes that allow BT to manage anything, at any time. I've highlighted a few of the weasel words & phrases here:
To protect the performance of the network and to ensure the best experience for all users of the service, at peak times we may manage the speed of non-time critical applications such as P2P.

P2P refers to certain applications that enable files and program sharing between groups of people logged on to a P2P network. Because they use uploads and downloads and are often left running 24/7, they consume significant bandwidth, even when being used by just a small number of customers.

Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical - for example, downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing - we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic. We manage these restrictions daily based on the demands on the network, but downstream restrictions will typically be in place 4pm - midnight on weekdays and 9am - midnight on the weekend. Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.

You can, of course, still use P2P services, but downloads will take longer during the peak times.

We may need to vary the policy from time to time to ensure the best possible experience for all our customers. This site will always be kept up to date with the latest information.


The language is full of terminology that allows them to change the behaviour to include other applications, change the limits both up & down, at any time they wish, and in any way they wish.

The naivety comes in believing that these things are static.

If I were doing what you are doing, and I read that section of text, I would understand that BT considered me & my activities to be the cause of network problems to their other customers, and that BT would target me & my activities - I would expect that targetting to increase over time, and to steadily focus. The little section on upstream would warn me especially that the worst targetting would be on uploaders.

I don't care what you are trying to upload (but others will), but surely you are aware that being a P2P uploader, rightly or wrongly, puts you top of many people's target lists. You shouldn't be surprised when the sights are brought to bear.

And please don't get uppity when someone questions what you are doing. You are indeed the first person that I've seen who is complaining about P2P *upload* speeds. Accusing other posters of trying to speak for everyone, when patently they weren't, merely makes you look, well, guilty.
Standard User Renfrew
(regular) Wed 08-Feb-12 17:00:32
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by NVB:
I don't have a problem with traffic management but I do have a problem when I want to upload something on P2P well after midnight, well outside the BT peak period and I see my upload speeds piddling along at 900 kB/s when my line is capable of 8 Mbit/sec. These off peak restrictions on P2P uploads are too severe.

There is no restriction because 900 kB/s (kilobytes per second) is roughly the same as 8 Mbit/sec (megabits per second), after taking into account transmission overheads. Or did you mean to write 900 kb/s (kilobits per second)? If so, you ought to check and then double-check the accuracy of what it is that you are writing if you want to avoid misunderstanding. You can only reasonably expect people to take what you write as being what you mean.

--
Dave N

Every day, ...... is another day
Standard User Zadeks
(committed) Thu 09-Feb-12 10:06:05
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Ignore orly. He's the number one BT fanboy. He's clearly out of touch and doesn't understand BitTorrent.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 09-Feb-12 10:53:24
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Have you had anything like tbbMeter or Networx, or even the Windows performance monitor, running at the same time as these low speeds occur, including during the Glasnost test?

Those show your total upload throughput in real-time, and I think it would be worthwhile to check they show the same speeds as you report, or whether something else is going on.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 09-Feb-12 14:00:26
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
Still griping at the fact you're getting your wallet emptied by Zen for an "unshaped" connection while I get the same thing from BT for a fraction of the cost (and with no silly bandwidth limits)?

Diddums.

---
> Comparison chart of FTTC ISPs
> Got FTTC? Complete the survey

BT Infinity 8th July 2010
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600m (approx) to cabinet
Speedtest Tracking

Edited by orly (Thu 09-Feb-12 14:06:31)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 09-Feb-12 14:14:24
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: orly] [link to this post]
 
It is called freedom of choice

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 09-Feb-12 15:07:17
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Problem is he just shows up in threads to troll. Seems to have appointed himself expert on Infinity, even showing up in the BT forums to spout nonsense. Yet nothing is done about it.

---
> Comparison chart of FTTC ISPs
> Got FTTC? Complete the survey

BT Infinity 8th July 2010
(NIBA)
600m (approx) to cabinet
Speedtest Tracking
Standard User reddev86
(regular) Thu 09-Feb-12 15:42:28
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Exactly the reason I opted for Plusnet. There is little if any room for interpretation of their policy.

FTTC via Plusnet Fibre Extra Pro
DS: 40Mbit US: 7Mbit
NILN PCP 31 - 520m line length
Netgear WNR1000
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 09-Feb-12 19:02:14
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: reddev86] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by reddev86:
Exactly the reason I opted for Plusnet. There is little if any room for interpretation of their policy.
Nor understanding a lot of it tongue.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Neutrik
(newbie) Thu 09-Feb-12 21:36:54
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
BT have always been pretty aggressive with the traffic shaping so it shouldn't be too surprising that they manage traffic outside of peak times. They mention this themselves where effectively say they can throttle speeds anytime they like. I experimented with torrent speeds outside of peak times and felt like the traffic was managed (and yes I know how to configure a torrent client).

With that said its pretty easy to purchase a private VPN and then use P2P as much as you like. And really this is the best solution if you compare it to other fibre packages. The price of Infinity + VPN pretty much represents the best value for 'unlimited' bandwidth at any time over fibre. At least until BE or Sky come out with their product.

FWIW, I get 33mbps down and 7.5mbps up over VPN.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 09-Feb-12 22:16:22
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Neutrik] [link to this post]
 
As the OP is complaining about lack of upload speed I cannot see how Sky will be any better given that they are only offering 2 Mb on upload and have not announced any more upgrades at the moment.

The option of a seedbox or something like a NAS with a p2p client is the way to go.

D-link do a NAS enclosure with a p2p client built in and costs 50 or so pounds and you can let that run all day.

The OP also hasn't said why he wants such a large upload speed which for the vast majority of users doesn't really matter.

Although it makes me laught that people get BT Infinity and then [censored] and whine that they traffic shape, as I don't use p2p I would rather have traffic shaping that the old FUP or even worse connection throttling for all.
Standard User Northwind
(learned) Fri 10-Feb-12 12:19:23
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
The OP also hasn't said why he wants such a large upload speed which for the vast majority of users doesn't really matter.


In philosophical terms, I don't think that it's an issue of "not mattering" to most folk as them having been told for the past decade that it doesn't matter.

ADSL's A-for-asymmetry has very much skewed the Internet, and the Web most of all, into a consumption experience with centralised content.

We should be encouraging people to run their own services at home, not shouting-down people who do so.

Although it wasn't of value to me, concepts like Opera Unite ( a web server within the web browser ) are a good way of introducing common folk to the concept of sharing information; photos, thoughts, stories or whatever.

So to the OP: congratulations to you for trying to use your upstream to the max, even though I might find the "content" you are sharing not to my taste.

--
Goscomb ( BE Wholesale ), Exchange NINTS

Edited by Northwind (Fri 10-Feb-12 12:20:44)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 10-Feb-12 13:42:39
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Northwind] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Northwind:
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
The OP also hasn't said why he wants such a large upload speed which for the vast majority of users doesn't really matter.


In philosophical terms, I don't think that it's an issue of "not mattering" to most folk as them having been told for the past decade that it doesn't matter.

ADSL's A-for-asymmetry has very much skewed the Internet, and the Web most of all, into a consumption experience with centralised content.

We should be encouraging people to run their own services at home, not shouting-down people who do so.

Although it wasn't of value to me, concepts like Opera Unite ( a web server within the web browser ) are a good way of introducing common folk to the concept of sharing information; photos, thoughts, stories or whatever.

So to the OP: congratulations to you for trying to use your upstream to the max, even though I might find the "content" you are sharing not to my taste.


Why are people saying that the original poster must be uploading distasteful content?

On any private bit torrent website you have your ratio tracked. Private torrent sites help users avoid being sued.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Fri 10-Feb-12 15:13:27
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Northwind] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Northwind:
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
The OP also hasn't said why he wants such a large upload speed which for the vast majority of users doesn't really matter.


In philosophical terms, I don't think that it's an issue of "not mattering" to most folk as them having been told for the past decade that it doesn't matter.

In this case, it has nothing to do with any philosophical stuff whatsoever - merely the psychological defensive response that came back when asked if it was upload speed he was talking about.

ADSL's A-for-asymmetry has very much skewed the Internet, and the Web most of all, into a consumption experience with centralised content.

Or, rather than skewing the internet, it could be considered to be doing exactly the job it was designed to do.

As a mass-market solution, capable of mass-deployment by massive telcos, it does the job that most people want of it - which is very much skewed to download. ADSL merely follows the skew, rather than creating it.

If someone wants to do something different - then by all means do it. But don't do it by trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. If you have different needs, then there are different solutions. If you can't afford the right solution, then you make do with the solutions you *can* afford.

Recently, BT changed the FTTC solution from profile 8C with bandplan 997 into profile 17a with bandplan 998. For the luckiest people, the profile change increases the download speed to 80Mbps. However, the bandplan change turns some old upstream frequencies into downstream, and helps make sure *everyone* gets double the downstream speed, even if they can't make use of the higher frequencies.

That is a recent & deliberate choice, and not forced by the technology. It suggests that the market is wanting *more* skew.

We should be encouraging people to run their own services at home, not shouting-down people who do so.

Aside from the fact that no-one was shouted down, nor asked what the content was, nor implied to be doing anything illegal, I disagree that we should be encouraging people to run services at home - at least stated in such a generic way. Allowing it, certainly. Not standing in the way, certainly. Not crippling it, certainly. But encouraging? There are actually better places to run services from - in various hosting centres. Not every service, and not everybody. We should instead be encouraging people to be open-minded in both directions.

Although it wasn't of value to me, concepts like Opera Unite ( a web server within the web browser ) are a good way of introducing common folk to the concept of sharing information; photos, thoughts, stories or whatever.

Sounds very much like the feature-set offered by a blog. Wordpress.com and Blogger offer these features without you needing to trouble your own computer.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Fri 10-Feb-12 15:19:30
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
Why are people saying that the original poster must be uploading distasteful content?

No-one was saying that at all. The OP was merely questioned that he really was talking about upstream, as it was entirely clear, and it certainly isn't often that the mention of P2P speed problems is focussed on upstream rather than downstream.

If anything, the implication of what the content could be came from the OP's defensive response to that question, rather than the question itself.

On any private bit torrent website you have your ratio tracked.

That is a very good point. I'd forgotten that some places places limits on what you can do based on the ratio.

And that is, of course, a perfectly good response to the original, perfectly good, question. So much better than getting on the defensive!

Private torrent sites help users avoid being sued.

They might look like they help, but whether they actually do is debateable.
Standard User DLS
(learned) Fri 10-Feb-12 17:40:17
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
I can see both sides of this, but I think the bottom lines are:

- The reality is that traffic management is inevitable in a contended network, although it might not always be done well.
- The current "norm" is download dominates (hence the product optimisation), but that wasn't always so and there's reason to believe demand won't always be so uneven.
- Nevertheless, if you want something that isn't the norm, you'd better be prepared to pay.

I'm not a BitTorrent user but I've used Glasnost to checkout what's happening on my Infinity business broadband; there's no indication of any shaping - up or down. That could be a false negative since none of the protocols I've tested (BitTorrent, SSH and HTTP) are driving my 40/10 link flat-out. Nevertheless, they're all showing uploads of ~5 Mbit/s night and day (and when other speed tests show 7-8). Most likely an indication of congestion between me and the MLAB Glasnost servers rather than shaping, and certainly faster than the OP. Maybe that's a difference between the business and domestic Infinity products.

I agree that services are better run from somewhere other than home. With enough bandwidth (and low-enough latency and jitter), this might eventually include those "services" provided by all that stuff behind/under the display and keyboard.

However, P2P was the original norm for the internet, although I entirely accept that widespread consumer adoption of the internet has come about largely as a result of commercial services that are client-server layers on top of the web.

With the accelerating growth of precious digital possessions, upload speed will once again matter more than it does now. Even using a local NAS and dribbling the upload, I'd like to be able to even things up a little. I'd like to do a full remote backup overnight and incrementals transparently during the day. I may be a little odd (not to mention paranoid, albeit with experience), but for a regular Joe, perhaps Granny would like to see the HD movie of a newborn today, rather than sometime next week. That card full of 20 Mpix photos shouldn't take all day to upload to the print shop. Once we reach the point of being able to stream multiple HDTV channels down, the only way is up.

Nevertheless, right now, the consumer/domestic products are optimised for download, so maybe it's worth paying more if one wants it both ways.
Standard User Going_Digital
(knowledge is power) Fri 10-Feb-12 17:53:41
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Might have nothing whatsoever to do with your ISP. Most torrent users are behind a NAT device and nobody can make an incoming connection to you so you are limited to connecting to other P2P clients that are on public IP or properly port forwarded connections. To get decent speeds you will need to do some port forwarding so that the others in the torrent who have plenty of free bandwidth but are also hidden behind a NAT device can connect to you to send you packets.

adslnation - The Broadband Experts.
http://www.adslnation.com
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 11-Feb-12 00:06:58
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Going_Digital] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Going_Digital:
His problem is his upload is slow? "Downstreams are fine".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 11-Feb-12 00:08:31)

Standard User asbokid
(regular) Sat 11-Feb-12 04:22:51
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
On any private bit torrent website you have your ratio tracked.

That is a very good point. I'd forgotten that some places place limits on what you can do based on the ratio. And that is, of course, a perfectly good response to the original, perfectly good, question.


I'll be the sacrificial lamb! We rely on BitTorrent for all our TV viewing. We get no TV signal. We can't get a satellite signal (a neighbour's tree is in the way) and our local terrestrial TV transmitter, although just 2km away, is highly directional, out of range and only a "Freeview Lite" PSB transmitter, any way.

For the record, we do have a valid TV licence, and have always had one!

There are two excellent BitTorrent trackers for British TV programmes. They carry all the popular broadcasts from the domestic channels. The trackers are largely supported by ex-pats, but we use them too. Both trackers require users to maintain a UL:DL ratio that is at least 1:1, so at deter the hit-and-run parasites. For that reason, an uncapped upstream service is important.

Bit of an aside, but it's frustrating that so many households, like ours, have been let down by digital terrestrial TV. The truth is we never wanted it in the first place. It was only ever a half-way house until FTTC or FTTP was properly rolled out. Reportedly costing £200m, the digital switchover represents poor value for money. That cash would have gone a long way in the fibre project. But maybe that's my bias!

cheers, a

Edited by asbokid (Sat 11-Feb-12 04:26:25)

Standard User Spasch
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 11-Feb-12 09:26:48
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by asbokid:
I'll be the sacrificial lamb! We rely on BitTorrent for all our TV viewing. We get no TV signal. We can't get a satellite signal (a neighbour's tree is in the way) and our local terrestrial TV transmitter, although just 2km away, is highly directional, out of range and only a "Freeview Lite" PSB transmitter, any way.

For the record, we do have a valid TV licence, and have always had one!

There are two excellent BitTorrent trackers for British TV programmes. They carry all the popular broadcasts from the domestic channels. The trackers are largely supported by ex-pats, but we use them too. Both trackers require users to maintain a UL:DL ratio that is at least 1:1, so at deter the hit-and-run parasites. For that reason, an uncapped upstream service is important.

Bit of an aside, but it's frustrating that so many households, like ours, have been let down by digital terrestrial TV. The truth is we never wanted it in the first place. It was only ever a half-way house until FTTC or FTTP was properly rolled out. Reportedly costing £200m, the digital switchover represents poor value for money. That cash would have gone a long way in the fibre project. But maybe that's my bias!

cheers, a
Another option is to use get_iplayer - a free command line tool for sucking iPlayer content down and converting the FLV stream to MP4.
Standard User asbokid
(regular) Sun 12-Feb-12 19:31:59
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Spasch] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Spasch:
Another option is to use get_iplayer - a free command line tool for sucking iPlayer content down and converting the FLV stream to MP4.

Thanks Spasch, I shall give get_iplayer a look. The one advantage of TV torrents is that someone has already transcoded the video images to a convenient format, and you can download them days, weeks or even months after broadcast. That's probably not what the broadcaster intended but..

cheers, a

Edited by asbokid (Sun 12-Feb-12 19:32:16)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Mon 13-Feb-12 14:59:29
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
have you ever thought that there is a lack of people complaining about upload speed because not many people are having problems, i am on bt infinity and do not have any problems with p2p,
i have not noticed any throtling at any time of the day, so you are either being restricted for a reason, or you are on an exchange that has a lot of people uploading, therefore being restricted,
and the only other thing it could be is your client, have you enable rc4 encryption at all, there are a few options you can change to speed things up.

i doubt very much that bt would throttle your connection only for rno reason, i know many people who get fantastic upload and download speeds with infinity, so i doubt it is traffic management unless they can see what it is you are uploading, which in some cases they can.
Standard User Spasch
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 13-Feb-12 19:51:33
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
I agree. I download lots of American TV shows and have multiple seasons of shows available to watch with my WD TV Live smile But, get_iplayer works for grabbing those BBC shows I never see on torrent sites.
Standard User Crillboy
(learned) Tue 03-Apr-12 05:06:35
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Spasch] [link to this post]
 
I'm in the same boat as OP. Not a heavy torrent user, upload is 100kb/s 24/7 has been that way for as long as I can recall, got infinity November 2011.

Seems weird that they'd leave d/l alone except during peak, but throttle upload at all times. It's a massive pain on trackers that require a high upload ratio. When you can d/l at 4.5mb but upload at 100kb, you are totally handcuffed.

Edited by Crillboy (Tue 03-Apr-12 05:09:19)

Standard User mackie26
(newbie) Thu 08-Nov-12 00:36:52
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Crillboy] [link to this post]
 
After observing utorrent for two weeks on a new bt inifinity service I am using, i can only conclude that it's definitely a hard 24/7 limit of 100 KB/s.

let me give you an example of how i use bittorrent: I send large self-produced CD and DVD ISOs to the other side of the world for my folks to burn off to disc so they can watch/listen to. all via two little utorrents at either end of the spectrum. now it will take 10 times as long to send my stuff to my parents than it should do.

totally ridiculous.

I will now have to look into a VPN solution to thwart BT's detection of the traffic as BT. A hassle (due to the need to open up a port in the VPN service and get that successfully working also - must be the same as the local one in the bt infinity box), but luckily I'm an advanced user so can do this, and at least it'll get me much better ul speeds.

Of course, if I had my way I wouldn't be using bt as an ISP (I'm a guest in a home in this situation, and the speeds in general after all are superb) - I guess I'd have to weigh up the speed vs. throttling vs. unlimited usage policy aspects of the various ISPs and service types on offer (fiber, adsl2+, double adsl2+).....(oh and vs. pricing too obviously)
Standard User epyon
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 00:48:14
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: mackie26] [link to this post]
 
Best ive seen the upload on torrents is 1MB/s

i think that was mid morning.

BTInfinity - Aberdeen denburn (110m) from cab

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 10:18:01
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: mackie26] [link to this post]
 
I am struggling to see why BT would throttle uploading on torrents other than as a measure to restrict filesharing of copyright material. Or do BT have upstream capacity issues somewhere (which would seem unlikely when selling async broadband services as by far most demand be on downstream). But consider that BT also sell other types of services as well which could make that situation possible.

Is there limitations on capacity for upload traffic somewhere on FTTC infrastructure?
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 13:53:04
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
BitTorrent upstream consumes loads of bandwidth.

http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-traffic-increases...
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:37:40
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
BitTorrent upstream consumes loads of bandwidth.

http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-traffic-increases...


but not as much as downstream.
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:41:56
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
More than downstream.

On a fast connection a download won't take very long at all and will only consume a relatively small amount of bandwidth. If the download is left seeding 24/7, it'll consume way more upstream bandwidth than down.

180GB uploaded per day is easily doable.
Standard User asbokid
(member) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:47:04
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In the newest Huawei MSAN controllers, the fibre uplink is asymmetric. Downstream and Upstream are duplexed across two wavelengths on a single-mode fibre. TX (upstream from MSAN to exchange) has a capacity of 1.244Gb/s whereas RX (downstream from exchange to MSAN) is 2.488Gb/s. The MSAN can accommodate two small form-factor pluggable (SFP) optical transceivers, so several fibres can be 'cascaded'. However, statistical multiplexing and traffic management must still be used. (Up to ) 192 subscriber lines multiplexed over two 1.244Gb/s fibre links means a maximum upstream of 13Mb/s per line.

See: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11358865/1024/Hu...

cheers, a
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:51:17
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
you forget all the users who dont use torrents, their collective downstream usage is more than torrent's upstream usage.

Of all the isp's data graphs I have seen I have never seen one with more upstream usage than downstream.

Whilst 180gig a day is doable, in practice dont assume every torrent user will upload that much.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:52:14
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: asbokid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by asbokid:
In the newest Huawei MSAN controllers, the fibre uplink is asymmetric. Downstream and Upstream are duplexed across two wavelengths on a single-mode fibre. TX (upstream from MSAN to exchange) has a capacity of 1.244Gb/s whereas RX (downstream from exchange to MSAN) is 2.488Gb/s. The MSAN can accommodate two small form-factor pluggable (SFP) optical transceivers, so several fibres can be 'cascaded'. However, statistical multiplexing and traffic management must still be used. (Up to ) 192 subscriber lines multiplexed over two 1.244Gb/s fibre links means a maximum upstream of 13Mb/s per line.

See: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11358865/1024/Hu...

cheers, a


ok thanks so at least one reason why its done then.
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:59:39
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Other traffic is irrelevant. I was explaining the reasoning behind the throttling. 180GB might be a lot, but it doesn't take long to seed multiple copies of a high definition film.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:16:54
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
Other traffic is irrelevant. I was explaining the reasoning behind the throttling. 180GB might be a lot, but it doesn't take long to seed multiple copies of a high definition film.


its relevant because we are talking about overall capacity to shift data, so if more downstream capacity is needed then that in turn increases upstream capacity.
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:19:32
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Without traffic shaping in place, P2P traffic will always consume more upstream bandwidth than down, demonstrated by the TF article.
Standard User Brammers
(member) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:44:06
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
Hang fire a second ... that TF article is showing bandwidth used as a % ... a percentage of what exactly?

Yes it might be a bigger slice of the bandwidth pie, so to speak, but if the upstream pie is smaller (due to lower last mile bitrate) then surely upload traffic on an absolute scale when compared to download would be lower?

Don't BT clients stop seeding once you hit a 1:1 ratio anyway? Vuze defaults to 0.5:1.

J

Powered by Be* Unlimited using a DG834N (DGTeam f/w)
Standard User tommy45
(knowledge is power) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:45:56
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
Without traffic shaping in place, P2P traffic will always consume more upstream bandwidth than down, demonstrated by the TF article.
Although it can consume more that is not always the case, as unless there are lots of peers connected to you at the same time, then it isn't going to saturate the connection, or even use all available resources, It's just BT and their backward thinking and the fact that they don't like customers actually using their connections ,or using their connections for P2P they never have or will do

Upload speed is equally important to quiet a few non commercial users , and to cap /throttle it to a poxy 1mb or less ,is just wrong,

Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:47:21
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Brammers] [link to this post]
 
They shouldn't do. Vuze is considered a trashy client in the torrent scene. uTorrent & rTorrent don't have limits in-place unless configured by the user.

Sharing is caring and all that.
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:50:28
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: tommy45] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I'm sure they just throttle P2P upstream for the sake of it.
Standard User mr_mojo
(knowledge is power) Thu 08-Nov-12 19:01:31
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
Bad logic -- you're assuming that infinite amounts of people want to download that torrent and few other seeds. In reality, the torrent soon gets saturated and the other seeders compete to upload.
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Thu 08-Nov-12 19:05:14
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
Not an issue if it's a public torrent. It's advisable to seed multiple torrents at private trackers.
Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Thu 08-Nov-12 19:14:48
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
Without traffic shaping in place, P2P traffic will always consume more upstream bandwidth than down, demonstrated by the TF article. As Brammers pointed out below, that is as a proportion, not an absolute. It's a proportion of the smaller pot of all upload traffic. On average, we can be sure that P2P will consume the exactly the same upload as download bandwidth. Every byte that anyone downloads has been uploaded by exactly one other person, so the total upload equals the total download.

Of course, total upload == total download applies everywhere else except broadcast applications. It is just that for most protocols the uploaders are largely servers and not peers ~ they would count in a survey of all internet usage, but not of all broadband usage.

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 21:32:05
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
Without traffic shaping in place, P2P traffic will always consume more upstream bandwidth than down, demonstrated by the TF article.


I am talking about total bandwidth tho, isp's have more customers than just heavy torrent uploaders. They dont buy bandwidth just for torrents. Also some torrent users may not even upload at all, private torrent sites eg. sell upload stats for cash so the people who pay dont have to upload to maintain a ratio. Some others buy seed boxes and this stops them uploading on broadband as well. Some just leech regardless. So yes whilst some may upload heavily its by no means everyone. Not to mention someone could just be a very casual torrent user and be affected by this draconian throttle.

I am not saying I am right, I am not sure, but it would be nice to see something solid that indicates unthrottled torrent usage can saturate an isp, sky seem to manage not managing it. VM's capacity is very async much more so than the 2:1 quoted for those new msan's so they not a very good test case.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 08-Nov-12 21:33:19)

Standard User Bapteeed
(regular) Thu 08-Nov-12 23:54:34
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak. *DELETED*


[re: NVB] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by Bapteeed

Edited by Bapteeed (Thu 08-Nov-12 23:55:49)

Standard User ukhardy07
(experienced) Fri 09-Nov-12 05:38:24
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Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
The reasoning is that plenty of torrent applications do not stop seeding. Many like frostwire vuze etc will seed forever. They run at startup too, so whenever the machine is on the user is uploading. This uses far more than the original download and over a week, month, year etc

Also if users have lots of torrents uploading all at once it can saturate the uplink. This is difficult with FIbre but was certainly a bigger issue on ADSL. This in turn can slow down the overall download speeds.

This being said, the throttling seems pointless as the Fibre connection should easily handle the uploading anyway.

BT for you. I have infinity and Sky Fibre. Definitely see the upload restricted, sometimes as low as 1.5 Kb/s (for a few minutes) and then it will jump to around 70 / 80 Kbps. It's 24/7 and is quite frankly annoying.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 09-Nov-12 08:58:10
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: tommy45] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tommy45:
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
Upload speed is equally important to quiet a few non commercial users , and to cap /throttle it to a poxy 1mb or less ,is just wrong,


Though perhaps not torrent upstream speed generally unless you've a different definition of 'important' to me.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 09-Nov-12 10:53:58
Print Post

Re: Dire torrent upload speeds using Infinity off-Peak.


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
The reasoning is that plenty of torrent applications do not stop seeding. Many like frostwire vuze etc will seed forever. They run at startup too, so whenever the machine is on the user is uploading. This uses far more than the original download and over a week, month, year etc

Also if users have lots of torrents uploading all at once it can saturate the uplink. This is difficult with FIbre but was certainly a bigger issue on ADSL. This in turn can slow down the overall download speeds.

This being said, the throttling seems pointless as the Fibre connection should easily handle the uploading anyway.

BT for you. I have infinity and Sky Fibre. Definitely see the upload restricted, sometimes as low as 1.5 Kb/s (for a few minutes) and then it will jump to around 70 / 80 Kbps. It's 24/7 and is quite frankly annoying.


yes but you are assuming the user will never stop this manually. Not to mention even if someone seeds forever like a madman the content loses popularity so would be no takers for the seeding. All you are saying is that 'some' users will upload far more than they download, this I am not debating, I agree with you on that. What is in question for me is the amount of people doing that and the overall affect on an isp is it to the point they need to throttle to such draconian levels 24/7. From the people I know who torrent and some do it heavily, they actually say they struggle to get 1:1 ratio as they competing against seedboxes etc. and that the content loses popularity very fast so on private trackers there can easily be 100s of seeders with a handful of leechers, in that case the user wouldnt max out even if not throttled due to the lack of demand. This is probably why people arent happy been throttled as I suspect they need to maximise the short time content is popular. So I think the assumption that if a torrent client was left unchecked it will upload at full speed forever is wrong, it will if new torrents keep been added to it, but not just from one torrent.

Good we seem to agree tho that the level of the throttling is probably excessive based on isp's needs. Thats all my original point was about, as to why the isp is doing it.

I personally rarely torrent but it is the odd occasion I will use it, some software is distributed by torrents only as some people cant afford proper hosting, I prefer using torrents to the aweful free hosting services such as rapidshare but find it inferior to normal ftp/http distribution. eg. I downloaded the cyanogenmod for my phone via torrent. My concern as discovered on VM with protocol shaping like this is really (a) should I ever decide to use torrents more than rarely, unlikely but not impossible and (b) false positives on other types of traffic, or even worse do they apply torrent rules to unclassified traffic. It also is probably unfair on light torrent users.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 09-Nov-12 11:03:07)

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