FTTC not worth having. (estimate of 0.1 Mbps)

As a Computer engineer, was interested to see what speeds certain addresses might get with FTTC, when enabled on my Exchange, due 30-Sep-12. Cabinets being installed at the moment.
Did a check on an address that i know struggles to get a decent broadband speed. this is what the checker returned.

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial check on your address indicates that it is VERY UNLIKELY you will be able to receive fixed 512Kbps or 256Kbps broadband service due to the very long length of your telephone line. However, your order will be accepted if you still wish to order. An engineer may need to visit who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.

Our check also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 750Kbps and 2.5Mbps.

Our check also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 1Mbps and 3.5Mbps.

Your cabinet is planned to have WBC FTTC by 30th September 2012. Our test also indicates that your line currently supports a fibre technology with an estimated WBC FTTC Broadband where consumers have received downstream line speed of .1 Mbps and upstream line speed of .1 Mbps.

The actual stable line speed supportable will be determined during the first 10 days of use. This speed may change over time, to ensure line stability is maintained.

If you decide to place an order, a further test will be performed to confirm if your line is suitable for the service you wish to purchase.

Thank you for your interest.

Does this mean that the Checker is seriously flawed, although other addresses for same cabinet seem to give speed i might expect, or would they have to wait for FTTP, for proper Speeds. Also another address on same Postcode doesn't even mention Fibre Speeds at all, even though 100% of that postcode on same cabinet.

Distance from the CAB is key on FTTC.

How far do you think this property is from its street cab? Since VDSL2 degrades tremendously with distance their is a maximum distance for the cab at which it is usable.

In a case like this ADSL2+ from the CAB would probably be ideal but this option isnt provided.

If a property is a long, long way from the CAN which is enabled for FTTC I believe the checker will not show this as an option.

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2:

VDSL2 deteriorates quickly from a theoretical maximum of 250 Mbit/s at source to 100 Mbit/s at 0.5 km (1,600 ft) and 50 Mbit/s at 1 km (3,300 ft), but degrades at a much slower rate from there, and still outperforms VDSL. Starting from 1.6 km (1 mi) its performance is equal to ADSL2+.

I am very surprised that the checker would estimate a FTTC speed lower than ADSL2+. Given the line-length from premises to DSLAM must be shorter, event the worse case should see a modest improvement in data rate.

According to Google Maps, Distance by road is approx 1.5 miles, which is a fairly straight line route, but which way the phone lines go, i'm not sure.
See link to see road route. and area (probably classed as semi-rural).

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Ogwell+Rd&daddr=...

1.5 miles by road, so lets say 2 miles or 3 km.

VDSL2 is going to pretty much useless at that distance. Fibre on demand is best bet, though would be a high-end install due to distance from the cabinet.

Destination looks to be a business site, so cost of fibre on demand might be seen as reasonable.

At around 2Km or so the speed from VDSL2 and ADSL2+ become very similar so there is little advantage in the expense of FTTC.

Part of this is to keep the average speed of the BT Retail Infinity up (minimum speed of 15Mb/s?) and BT Retail sell BB with fibre or something similar.

I suppose except in most circumstances the speed of FTTC (VDSL2 from the CAB) should always be greater than ADSL from the exchange but on very long lines would VDSL2 not suffer more from interference than ADSL / ADSL2 and the FTTC CAB will fall back to ADSL / ADSL2 which is what a connection from the exchange would do?

The sample of actual very long cabinet to home sides so far suggests that with the way the ANFP works, that VDSL2 on long lines 2km+ is pretty much a waste of time. Should only be a very small number of properties.

The theory is VDSL2+ degrades to ADSL2+ performance levels at distance, but practice suggests this is not happening.

Hi - I'm new to this! But have a related issue - hope you can help...

We are in a semi-rural location and have had very poor ADSL speeds (below 1.5Mbps) . We are a hotel so need to be able to offer our guests something better! As such I ordered a fibre product from ADSL24 and Openreach are due to come to install this coming Monday (9th July)

HOWEVER... according to various line checkers I can only get 3.7-3.7Mbps on FTTC, ADSL24 say that if the engineer cannot get a speed above the threshold he/she wont connect the line. I am desperate for any improvement (I would happily pay fibre prices for 3.6!)

Do these line checkers give realistic speeds? Does anyone know what the threshold is or whether I'm likely to get a better speed using FTTC than I currently do with ADSL? Do you think the engineer will even connect us? Is there anything I can do to improve my prospects?

Thanks in advance...

PS I think I have located my cabinet and, by road, it is 1.3km from us See this map

The theory says 1.3km should be around 17 to 15 Mbps.

One only knows how accurate the estimate is once you enable the service, so many variables are involved. That it would require someone to visit all 29 million telephone lines in the UK every few months to test each on with the various versions of broadband to give an accurate checker.

Thanks for the superfast reply!

I have been doing a little bit or research on this and had an idea - I would be grateful for your thoughts on it...

The NTE point is in the middle of the property approx 30m from the telegraph pole.

The line goes through the property and runs alongside power lines servicing some heavy equipment - I have been monitoring the noise ratio and there are fluctuations when various power circuits are in use.

The office with our router in it is right next to the pole, Do you think repositioning the NTE in the office with a short dropwire straight from the pole to the NTE would improve the speed? If so do you think I have any chance of convincing the openreach engineer to do this on Monday

Cheers
Ben

ADSL24 have a very helpful rep on here, forum name aptly ADSL24, if he doesn't pick up on your post drop him a PM. I'm sure he's said before they will happily connect a customer even if the speed is low.

Don't forget to post back what speed you do get, it'll be helpful to others.


PS. Moving the master socket should improve things and I shouldn't think it'll be a problem, perhaps offer him dinner

Edited by R0NSKI (Thu 05-Jul-12 13:27:42)

Great - thanks I'll send him a message

In reply to a post by ben_g_uk:

The office with our router in it is right next to the pole, Do you think repositioning the NTE in the office with a short dropwire straight from the pole to the NTE would improve the speed? If so do you think I have any chance of convincing the openreach engineer to do this on Monday

Yes, and very probably. You will also need a bit of fiddling at the existing NTE.

Yes, get the NTE as close to the pole as possible and away from any noise source - you have seen what the power circuits can do to your current ADSL speeds.

Even if it means having to rework your phones afterwards, it will be worthwhile.

ok great sounds like I need to push this, but looking at the bits of OpenReach's website that I can access, namely their 'flexible demarcation guide', they do state that:

"Flexible Demarcation applies to the provision of new lines. NO retrospective changes will be made to the NTP of existing lines, other than where judged necessary for engineering reasons when an engineer is called out to repair, convert or relocate a line."

So I'm guessing its down to fate as to whether I get a friendly engineer who will agree to do it!

That is not a BT cabinet
I think this maybe it, which is much further away

Oh

I really hope that you are not correct!

My neighbour (600m down the road) has just signed up with BT infinity and is getting 20mbps. If that really is my nearest cabinet that would mean he is getting 20mb on a 2km line. Does that sound about right?

Is this a cabinet? If so I think it's more likely it is this one, although I doubt the line would follow the road

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-Jul-12 14:49:25)

Thats a BT cab also, so might be that one

In reply to a post by Ribble:

That is not a BT cabinet
I think this maybe it, which is much further away

That doesn't look like a BT cab to me.

Its the rear view of the cabinet

This one is a bit nearer- does this look like a BT cabinet to you?

He could be 600m closer or 600m further away! Does he still have his ADSL attenuation figures? Compare those to yours and it will tell you who is furthest - or what was his ADSL speed.

no

It is not impossible, unlikely but if there is hardly anyone else with VDSL2 on the cabinet 20Meg at 2km might just be possible.

Distance versus speed figures at http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/fibre-broadband....

I would be very happy it we were nearer but I'm pretty certain that that's not the case.

I'm sure we are at the end of that line. I've followed it on street view and it runs to his house and a few others then I lose it.

Well he did get more than they expected - he was told to expect 16mbps but ended up with slightly over 20mbps

From various papers I have seen which include testing, 5000 feet gives around 25Mbps and at 6000 feet around 20Mbps. With 2km being about 6600 feet, I would guess down towards 10 Mbps ...

The problem will be with the upstream - at 5000 to 5500 feet it is down at around 2Mbps and drops off even more for the next 1000 feet.

It will be a case of hope and pray ... get the NTE moved and the modem right next to it.

In reply to a post by Ribble:

That is not a BT cabinet
I think this maybe it, which is much further away

For someone who normally has such an accurate eye for detail, I am rather surprised at your outright dismissal of the OP's findings. I agree it is rather difficult to get a good view of the cabinet but isn't that a BT subsurface joint chamber just in front of it?

Perhaps the OP would like to go there and take his own series of photographs, then post a link to them so that we can make a close examination?

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by Ribble:

That is not a BT cabinet
I think this maybe it, which is much further away

For someone who normally has such an accurate eye for detail, I am rather surprised at your outright dismissal of the OP's findings. I agree it is rather difficult to get a good view of the cabinet but isn't that a BT subsurface joint chamber just in front of it?

Perhaps the OP would like to go there and take his own series of photographs, then post a link to them so that we can make a close examination?

OP? Is that me? - I'm interested now so probably will head down there and take a closer look. What am I looking for? Do they say something like "property of openreach" or is that just too easy?!

In reply to a post by ben_g_uk:

ok great sounds like I need to push this, but looking at the bits of OpenReach's website that I can access, namely their 'flexible demarcation guide', they do state that:

"Flexible Demarcation applies to the provision of new lines. NO retrospective changes will be made to the NTP of existing lines, other than where judged necessary for engineering reasons when an engineer is called out to repair, convert or relocate a line."

So I'm guessing its down to fate as to whether I get a friendly engineer who will agree to do it!

You mention the existing NTE. Do you actually have an NTE5? If not, then the Openreach engineer must fit a new NTE5 within a few metres of the entrance to your property:

During the installation of the FTTC service the Openreach engineer will fit a Service Specific Front Plate to the existing NTE5. Where no NTE5 exists, Openreach will install an NTE5 within 3 metres of the entrance to the End User premises. Where an external NTE exists Openreach will install an NTE5 with service specific front plate internally immediately adjacent to the external NTE.

If you have no NTE5 then the new one should be fitted within 3m of the entrance, and you would normally be given some choice as to where exactly. If you do have an NTE5 already, I'd hide it.

In reply to a post by ben_g_uk:

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

Perhaps the OP would like to go there and take his own series of photographs, then post a link to them so that we can make a close examination?

OP? Is that me? - I'm interested now so probably will head down there and take a closer look. What am I looking for? Do they say something like "property of openreach" or is that just too easy?!

OP == original poster, so I have misused that abbreviation as you are not the originator of this thread. But yes, I do mean you Ben.

If you could go there and take some close-up photographs of the front, back, sides and lock(s) of that green cabinet, as well as the cover on the subsurface joint-chamber just in front of it, that would be a good help. If there are any numbers or other distinguishing marks, please ensure you photograph them.

I think it's an NTE5 as it has a removable faceplate with a test socket.

I like your thinking though - I could easily show him the existing extension socket in the office and then, when he asks where the master is, feign ignorance (wont' be difficult ). When he sees the telegraph pole right there and weighs up the prospect of trawling through the hotel to find the master socket I reckon he's bound to choose the easier option!

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by Ribble:

That is not a BT cabinet
I think this maybe it, which is much further away

For someone who normally has such an accurate eye for detail, I am rather surprised at your outright dismissal of the OP's findings. I agree it is rather difficult to get a good view of the cabinet but isn't that a BT subsurface joint chamber just in front of it?

Perhaps the OP would like to go there and take his own series of photographs, then post a link to them so that we can make a close examination?

If you follow that route from the start, the 3rd or 4th pole, near the bend on Stevenage Road has a drop cable on it, maybe thats taking thel ine underground off somewhere?

Also if you follow on a bit further, the slightly more built up area, theres a river, and just past it the pole takes several lines down to an underground chamber, there are no further poles.

Maybe the line cuts across the fields to that cab?

Ben_g_uk is on cab 28, presuming the hotels postcode I used is SG47JR.

This is a map of the postcodes supplied by cab 28, it also shows the exchange. If you look at where the exchange is and where the area covered by the cabinet starts we can deduce that the one there is most likely his.

So I think this is indeed Ben's cab, which I'm sure someone (Ribble) posted earlier, and if it is it's 2.6km away by road.

Perhaps Ben should take a drive down and see if it has any numbers on it.

Edited by R0NSKI (Thu 05-Jul-12 21:53:07)

In reply to a post by ben_g_uk:

Is this a cabinet? If so I think it's more likely it is this one, although I doubt the line would follow the road

That one is P30 I believe, as per this map.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Ben_g_uk is on cab 28, presuming the hotels postcode I used is SG47JR.

This is a map of the postcodes supplied by cab 28, it also shows the exchange. If you look at where the exchange is and where the area covered by the cabinet starts we can deduce that the one there is most likely his.

So I think this is indeed Ben's cab, which I'm sure someone (Ribble) posted earlier, and if it is it's 2.6km away by road.

Perhaps Ben should take a drive down and see if it has any numbers on it.

Sadly, although the post code is sg4 7jr, mapping applications incorrectly list us as sg4 7jl... Which is the very furthest postcode served by that cab! How frustrating! Esp since cab 30 is nearer.

I guess it is just down to fate to see what is possible on Monday and look forward to upgrading to FTTP on demand next year!

Thanks everyone for all your assistance, I'll let you know how I get on

Ben

If FTTC is no joy, then the other option you have would be a leased line product - the costs jump up way more, but depending on the turnover of your hotel, it might be worth it (tax deductions? I dunno..)

A 20Mbit burstable connection is ~£6k per annum..

http://aaisp.net.uk/ethernet.html

Shame there's no wireless broadband available in your area, at least a quick check on Sam Knows doesn't show any.

How friendly is your neighbour? Perhaps a second line to his property with a wireless link from there to your property might be an option if yours doesn't work out.

Good luck for Monday.

Edit: Another option might be to use a mobile data plan if you have good reception, there are plenty of routers that will use a mobile dongle. Not sure what data plans there are for business�s but may well be worth looking into.

Also ask the engineer to confirm what cabinet your on, and his equipment should tell you the line length as well.

Edited by R0NSKI (Fri 06-Jul-12 08:34:32)

In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:

If you do have an NTE5 already, I'd hide it.

I think the engineer is going to find it first before doing any work... but if it worked, then yay!

Watching this thread with interest...

What I meant was simply replacing the NTE5 with an old-style socket and hiding the NTE5 in a drawer somewhere.

I don't think an engineer is likely to be rooting through your private drawers or cupboards.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Edit: Another option might be to use a mobile data plan if you have good reception, there are plenty of routers that will use a mobile dongle. Not sure what data plans there are for business�s but may well be worth looking into.

I wouldn't trust a mobile data plan for providing internet access to guests in a hotel - the upload is usually quite constrained anyway, so sharing it out could really hamper the connection.

Another option might be satellite if Ben gets really stuck, but the cost would probably be better with a leased line at that point.

Or the EFM - Ethernet First/Final Mile, is a possibility if BT still install and support. IEEE 802.3 2 BASE-TL was the spec (or something like that).

So very friendly chap came to install the FTTC modem this morning however was not a full blown telecoms engineer ("I'm just the modem install guy") so no luck with my request to move the NTE5.

Funnily enough once he told me that I miraculously remembered where the master socket was!!

Anyway he did his best but it would not sync properly (signal kept on dropping off) and he thinks it's probably because of the length of the line. However on the up side they are going to send a line engineer down to take a look at the joints & connections in case the fault is there (internet always gets much slower when there is rain so it might be the case)

Interestingly when it did hold a sync he thought it must be an error so called it in and apparently mine was the lowest speed anyone at HQ had ever seen on an FTTC connection!

So looks like I need to go back to the drawing board - looked at Ethernet in the Final Mile (EFM) but according to talk talk its not available on this length of line. I just can't justify the expense of a leased fibre line, as it's going to be £3k installation plus £500-£600 pcm which is just too much really. I don't see mobile / 3G working brilliantly and my neighbour rents out offices in his barns so unlikely he will want to share his connection with us.

I reckon my remaining options are line bonding or satellite or a combination of the two unless anyone has any other ideas??


PS - R0SNKI You were correct - it was indeed cab 28!

Hopefully the line engineer can work some magic.

Your neighbour wouldn't need to share his connection, just get a second line put in, of course the gamble would be whether the second line is as good as his existing line.

Edit. was the cab where we thought it was located?

Edited by R0NSKI (Mon 09-Jul-12 15:11:31)

fingers crossed... The modem guy said I would be able to track progress of the line test on-line. Any idea how I could do that?

Yes the cab unfortunately was the one you located, 2.6 long km away!

You might want to try the fault tracker here or the business one here.