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Standard User finewired
(newbie) Thu 12-Jul-12 12:41:20
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Infinity Power Cycle


[link to this post]
 
I'm quite happy with my newly installed BT Infinity 2. The Openreach modem & HomeHub3 router have been running continuosly for over 72 hours, and speed has been consistent around 70/13.

I have a query regarding power cycle requirements. During installation, the BT Eng'r. advised to leave the modem & router on for at least 10 days (!), he called this the training and balancing period. We are leaving for a week's holiday this weekend, and if I leave the modem-router off, this means it would've been on for less than a week.

How true and important is it that I need to leave these on for 'at least 10 days'? I seem to recall a post in TBB where only 48 hours were required... What is the advisable minimum hours between power cylcle?... And if I leave these off for more than a week, what are the consequences.?

I might be able to ask these questions to BT but I know I could get better answers from the guys at TBB. Sorry but when I was on ADSL, I used to reset the router everytime (though I was on fixed IP), and it didn't affect the performance... What are the green credentials of FTTC/FTTP ?

Edited by finewired (Thu 12-Jul-12 12:43:37)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 12-Jul-12 13:06:04
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: finewired] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by finewired:
How true and important is it that I need to leave these on for 'at least 10 days'? I seem to recall a post in TBB where only 48 hours were required... What is the advisable minimum hours between power cylcle?... And if I leave these off for more than a week, what are the consequences.?
My connection noticeably improved 10 days to the hour after it went live. Could've been a coincedence though.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he can smile
Standard User greenglide
(committed) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:12:32
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
But if you switch it off and leave it off it should be fine. Multiple drop-outs are the thing that the DLM ought to be looking for.

I don't think anyone seriously beleives in the mystical "ten day training period" on FTTC but I don't think OR have ever disclosed exactly how the DLM works.

Ex <n>ildram , been to SKY MAX - 15,225 Download
BE Unlimited - 21,000 Download 1,200 Upload ON THE LINE THAT SKY COULD ONLY PROVIDE 15,255 DOWN AND 800 UP ON!!!,
Moved house, now BE Unlimited 6,500 Down, 1Mb/s up - gutted!
FTTC Cab installation commenced 12th April - expect full 80 / 20 - bye bye BE, hello BT Infinity soon!


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Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:21:44
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: finewired] [link to this post]
 
You could turn off the router and just leave the modem powered up. It will consume very little power in the quiescent state - just small amounts of management traffic.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User simon194
(member) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:35:42
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by greenglide:
But if you switch it off and leave it off it should be fine. Multiple drop-outs are the thing that the DLM ought to be looking for.

I don't think anyone seriously beleives in the mystical "ten day training period" on FTTC but I don't think OR have ever disclosed exactly how the DLM works.

There's a bit of info in SIN498, more and overview really, but it says:

"Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target stability. It does this for as long as the product exists."

Sort of makes the 10 day thing a bit of a myth. smile
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:40:04
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
Openreach description of the DLM. ]Not updated for 80/20.
2.2.5 Dynamic Line Management
Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target stability. It does this for as long as the product exists.

At provision, the line is put on wide open profiles, allowing downstream line speeds of up to 40Mbit/s, and upstream line speeds of up to 2Mbit/s or 10Mbit/s depending on the upstream product option selected.

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before intervening, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day. If DLM intervenes it will set a capped profile with a maximum rate and a minimum rate, where the minimum rate is set at approximately half of the maximum rate.

The purpose of the minimum rate is to ensure that the line does not train at a rate which is significantly below the level the line should be able to achieve. If this happened, then the line is likely to remain at a very low rate till a re-train is forced by the user powering off the Active NTE.

Note that the upstream throughput is also constrained on the DSLAM to the upstream rate requested in the order, ie 2Mbit/s or 10Mbit/s, so even if the upstream line speed is higher, the upstream throughput is constrained to the level ordered for the product.
The setting of a maximum and minimum rate is what is commonly called "Banding". For some odd reason that can only be removed by an engineer visit. It is a setting that it done remotely by them ringing up to request it.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:44:55
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
You could turn off the router and just leave the modem powered up. It will consume very little power in the quiescent state - just small amounts of management traffic.
In a way yes. In a way no.

The 10-day period arises from the BT Wholesale DLM, that is still used to create an IP Profile for WBC. Turning off the router is going to detach the line from that. So if the router is turned off, there is no harm in turning off the modem, as that has a 2-day period as posted above and frequently in the past.

Having said that, the BT Wholesale 10-day period is bunkum in relation to FTTC, and pretty much so in relation to ADSLx. I would turn the lot off.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 12-Jul-12 14:48:21
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by simon194:
In reply to a post by greenglide:
But if you switch it off and leave it off it should be fine. Multiple drop-outs are the thing that the DLM ought to be looking for.

I don't think anyone seriously beleives in the mystical "ten day training period" on FTTC but I don't think OR have ever disclosed exactly how the DLM works.

There's a bit of info in SIN498, more and overview really, but it says:

"Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target stability. It does this for as long as the product exists."

Sort of makes the 10 day thing a bit of a myth. smile
Day of the installation.

Ten days later.

Hmmm.

NB:I didn't create the TBBQM until an hour or so after installation (had more fun things to do, lol). So it looks like that latency change occurred 10 days to the hour after it went live. But only BT really know the answer. And even that's an optimistic assumption laugh

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he can smile
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Thu 12-Jul-12 16:08:50
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The 10-day period arises from the BT Wholesale DLM, that is still used to create an IP Profile for WBC.


And if you're with Sky or TalkTalk, no WBC smile

James be* pro (16.8 / 1.2 sync) - BQM - FTTC cab installed 18-jun-2012 - not yet active - est 44.6 / 6.5
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:02:20
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure ... with the modem connected there will still be sync and the line characteristics monitored and it should not need a router.

I can disconnect my router, connect a PC to port2 of the modem, power up and I can see all of the line stats, sync &c. Anything which is monitoring the line condition does not need to know the login/user details, just eh circuit number and should maintain the database on that basis.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Thu 12-Jul-12 18:41:20)

Standard User StephenTodd
(member) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:09:45
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
I'm not sure ... with the modem connected there will still be sync and the line characteristics monitored and it should not need a modem.

I can disconnect my router, connect a PC to port2 of the modem, power up and I can see all of the line stats, sync &c. Anything which is monitoring the line condition does not need to know the login/user details, just eh circuit number and should maintain the database on that basis.


Did you hack your modem to see those details, or could you get them some other way? Which modem do you have?

I understand that if you run a second ethernet cable from modem lan 2 to a lan port on the router, you can see the modem as 192.168.1.1 without moving your PC connections around.

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:18:33
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I think you've misunderstood my post smile. (And your second "modem" I take to be "router").

Given that the OR DLM definitely does not have a 10-day initial period, but only a 2-day one, turning it off after that can have no effect on the line conditioning.

So I was merely saying that if the router is turned off as you suggest, the modem might as well be turned off as well.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:20:22
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
I think you are looking at a standard interleaving adjustment there Andue. Maybe just the depth, as opposed to turning it off, as I'd expect a bigger drop unless it was already minimal.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 12-Jul-12 18:21:36)

Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:21:07
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
Both of my Huawei modems have the modified software!

Yes, you can run a cable from modem to router and then see it on the network. However, it is better to allocate a different IP address - which I have had to do as I don't use the 192.168.1.xxx address block and mine have different addresses from each other too.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User StephenTodd
(member) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:24:26
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
@MHC. Cheers, thanks for the information.

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jul-12 18:43:07
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Edited. The only reason I was suggesting it, is if the OP was still unsure even with all the information and advice, then leaving just the modem on will maintain the link and will only take a small amount of power.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User finewired
(newbie) Thu 12-Jul-12 23:14:49
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
What do you mean when you say that your connection 'noticeably improved'? How do you back this? And what stat is this based? Did you have any issues/problems prior to the 10th day which noticeable disappeared?... If you're talking about speed, well I am already running near 75/15 and if my speed will still improve, then I'm happy to leave these on whilst I'm away.
Standard User ukhardy07
(experienced) Fri 13-Jul-12 01:22:34
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: finewired] [link to this post]
 
Just leave it on. It won't combust into flames I'm sure and it uses barely any power

I've had a router plugged in behind my fridge 24/7 always.
Standard User finewired
(newbie) Fri 13-Jul-12 01:30:54
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
That's amazing. A very reliable router that never needed a reset.

Which router is that ?
Standard User ukhardy07
(experienced) Fri 13-Jul-12 01:34:41
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: finewired] [link to this post]
 
The Sky provided router. It's the N one released in August.

Why would a router need a reboot. If I get ANY router that doesn't last literally months and months without needing a reboot I bin it / sell it.

I expect it to stay on 24/7. It plugs in with my fridge so is only turned off when there's a power cut / some electrical work.

7 of us use the sky router with 7 laptops, 3 iPhones, 4 blackberries, 2 iPads, 3 wifi printers, a sky wifi receiver and a wifi tv, ps3, wii and an xbox. No issues.

I have had over 3000 hours of uptime before a reset and absolutely no noticeable slowdown.

The home hub is very stable too from what I gather?

Also my line started on 60mbps and over the 10 days went to the full 80 mbps. I think it hit 80 on around the 3rd day though and stayed there.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 13-Jul-12 01:35:57)

Standard User finewired
(newbie) Fri 13-Jul-12 06:57:46
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
What then would be the acceptable amount of drop-out per certain amount of time? For proper training, and to maintain good performance of the Infinity setup?
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 13-Jul-12 07:35:24
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Re: Infinity Power Cycle


[re: finewired] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by finewired:
What do you mean when you say that your connection 'noticeably improved'? How do you back this? And what stat is this based? Did you have any issues/problems prior to the 10th day which noticeable disappeared?... If you're talking about speed, well I am already running near 75/15 and if my speed will still improve, then I'm happy to leave these on whilst I'm away.
See my later post in this thread. TBBQM shows a drop in latency.

Whether it's worth leaving the router on while you're away is another matter. I always leave mine on but then I run a mail server. If I didn't then it'd be powered off overnight as well as while I'm on holiday. That's what I used to do many years ago. It was on a timer so that I didn't forget. It never caused me problems with BT's old DLM so probably won't with the new one.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he can smile

Edited by Andrue (Fri 13-Jul-12 07:37:13)

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