Getting FTTC instaled will this line in this state be ok??

So my cab and exchange has just gone live. I have orderd infinity 2, with their estimate saying 17.1MB. Line is approx 1900meters from house to cab.

But about 8 months ago after having a perfect line running fastpath with no hec or fec or errord seconds the line suddenly one day was unable to use fastpath anymore and the stats now have been like this for 8 months. Millions of errors per hour...

Link Information BE broadband Target SNR 3db

Uptime: 1 day, 20:41:45
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.3
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.226 / 6.724
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 3,41 / 1,12
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,1 / 18,6
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 28,0 / 45,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 3,5 / 4,2
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 18 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 6 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3,658 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 57,085,965
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 433 / 391
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 203 / 5,545


My question is will this be a really bad thing for when i get FTTC installed? Will i lose loads of speed because of the line and DLM that FTTC uses. Are those stats above classed as a fault and could i get the line fixed at the time FTTC is installed? Will the engineer check for things like that when installing FTTC?

Im worried

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Sep-12 20:36:15)

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4073605-m...

1.9km from the cabinet, you might see no significant improvement for the download speeds anyway

The problem may lie between the exchange and the cab, and therefore won't affect FTTC.

Also you may be able to get the engineer to check any likely joints.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

1.9km from the cabinet, you might see no significant improvement for the download speeds anyway

Really? I am about 2 times that distance from the exchange. So surely halfing the line length should give me a speed boost?

The checker says 17 meg :/

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

1.9km from the cabinet, you might see no significant improvement for the download speeds anyway

Really? I am about 2 times that distance from the exchange. So surely halfing the line length should give me a speed boost?

The checker says 17 meg :/

Your connection from the exchange uses ADSL G.DMT or ADSL2+ which while slower loses speed less over distance. FTTC uses VDSL2 for the final leg which is faster than ADSL but also loses speed quickly.

If they were deploying ADSL2+ from the cabinet I would be sure of a boost, but VDSL2 has a very sharp drop off due to the frequencies used, and the need to not cause problems for those using ADSL and ADSL2+ in the area.

You should see a boost, but at this distance I would not be betting a months salary on it.

Once you are connected, can you share your line performance experiance.

I'd want to find what the problem on the line is, PDQ. Why did you give up on it in the other thread?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'd want to find what the problem on the line is, PDQ. Why did you give up on it in the other thread?

Hi There,

Well i tried getting BE to acknowledge it as a problem, but they simply were not having any of it as it came up fine on their remote so called "line test". The fact that it works after applying interleaving means they say there is nothing wrong with it! Therefore were not willing to discuss it further with me.

The line before this was fine. Fast path worked perfectly no errors at all. Then one day came home from work and it was on a continuous re-sync, could only stay synced for 3 seconds or so on fastpath, so turned on interleaving and it connects as above with a few thousand errors every second.

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'd want to find what the problem on the line is, PDQ. Why did you give up on it in the other thread?

Hi There,

Well i tried getting BE to acknowledge it as a problem, but they simply were not having any of it as it came up fine on their remote so called "line test". The fact that it works after applying interleaving means they say there is nothing wrong with it! Therefore were not willing to discuss it further with me.

The line before this was fine. Fast path worked perfectly no errors at all. Then one day came home from work and it was on a continuous re-sync, could only stay synced for 3 seconds or so on fastpath, so turned on interleaving and it connects as above with a few thousand errors every second.

My Be line did that. I used to get 4.5M reliably, but one day, got crackling on my line, making it unusable for voice.

BT OR fixed that, clean line, but now I can't get more than about 1.5M and it's up and down more often than zebedee.

Be aren't interested in taking it any further, as with interleaving and stability mode, it more or less stays up most of the time, but at much reduced speeds.

I'm just waiting for my cabinet to go live with fibre, then I'm off.

Ok had it installed today. Downloading at about 11.5-12mbps.

But the upload appears to be stuck at 0.55mbps. I cant upload any faster than 0.58mbps in any test I have tried. Anyone know what it wrong ?

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

Ok had it installed today. Downloading at about 11.5-12mbps.

But the upload appears to be stuck at 0.55mbps. I cant upload any faster than 0.58mbps in any test I have tried. Anyone know what it wrong ?

Quick recommendation:-

Assuming you have (or can obtain) a Huawei HG612 modem, get the graphing scripts set up PDQ, grab the current "snapshot" stats & start off the 24/7 logging.

Any self-diagnosis without the connection stats will be otherwise nigh on impossible.

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

Ok had it installed today. Downloading at about 11.5-12mbps.

But the upload appears to be stuck at 0.55mbps. I cant upload any faster than 0.58mbps in any test I have tried. Anyone know what it wrong ?

Quick recommendation:-

Assuming you have (or can obtain) a Huawei HG612 modem, get the graphing scripts set up PDQ, grab the current "snapshot" stats & start off the 24/7 logging.

Any self-diagnosis without the connection stats will be otherwise nigh on impossible.

Does this require loading the hacked firmware? If so, I am reluctant to do so for the first few days as i don't want to turn the modem off or do anything that might make my speed worse.

Hmmm [censored] my modem is a "ECI B-focus" somthing or other. Is there a hacked firmware for this so i can see my line stats ??

Edited by deleted (Tue 18-Sep-12 21:09:59)

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

Does this require loading the hacked firmware? If so, I am reluctant to do so for the first few days as i don't want to turn the modem off or do anything that might make my speed worse.

Hmmm [censored] my modem is a "ECI B-focus" somthing or other. Is there a hacked firmware for this so i can see my line stats ??

It requires the hacked firmware.

Pick one up off eBay - they're pretty cheap & it may actually work better than the ECI unit

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

Does this require loading the hacked firmware? If so, I am reluctant to do so for the first few days as i don't want to turn the modem off or do anything that might make my speed worse.

It does indeed need the unlocked firmware to be loaded (that sounds much more respectable than hacked, don't you think?

I can understand your reluctance to "upset" that rather grumpy DLM system in the first few days.
The 3rd day should be O.K. as DLM makes its initial decisions in day one or day two depending how many arrors are detected.

Hmmm [censored] my modem is a "ECI B-focus" somthing or other. Is there a hacked firmware for this so i can see my line stats ??

Yes & No. The ECI modem CAN be unlocked using a physical method & Linux (I think) scripts were developed, but I'm not too sure if they were fully tested.

However, the HG612 can be used perfectly well with the ECI cabinet DSLAM.
I am currently remotely monitoring a HG612 modem connected to an ECI DSLAM.

It is actually possible that you are connected to a Huawei DSLAM anyway.
An installation engineer told me that OR have now allowed engineers to use either modem, depending upon van stocks.

"Spare" HG612 modems can be regularly found on ebay at quite low prices.

This is the IPprofile test i just did.

IP PROFILE SPEED TEST IMAGE

You see the upload. It seems to be lock at that speed. I was getting double that on ADSL2 with a 4km line. Hmmmm. Is it a well known problem or anything?

The speedtester site rarely gives a good upload reading. Would you care to try this site? http://mcslhr.visualware.com/myspeed/myspeed_line_ca...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The speedtester site rarely gives a good upload reading. Would you care to try this site? http://mcslhr.visualware.com/myspeed/myspeed_line_ca...

Sure. Here are the results.

Download speed 11648kbps
Upload speed 584kbps

Download consistency of service 99%
Upload consistency of service 98%

Average round trip time 19ms

note
(Wired connection of course, no other devices on the network, no other software using bandwidth)

I suspect your line with its estimated length of almost 2km is providing all it can for a VDSL2 connection.

Here's a similar low speed connection (stats from a HG612 on another ECI DSLAM):-

Text

1 23 45 67 89 1011 1213 1415 1617 1819 2021 22

# xdslcmd info --pbParams xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime Retrain Reason: 2Max:    Upstream rate = 698 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13156 Kbps Path:   0, Upstream rate = 650 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13170 Kbps  Discovery Phase (Initial) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771) DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083) Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan US: (0,95) DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)        VDSL Port Details       Upstream        DownstreamAttainable Net Data Rate:        698 kbps         13156 kbps Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        0.9 dBm           8.6 dBm============================================================================   VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3  Line Attenuation(dB):  8.2     65.2    62.2     N/A    26.4    0.1     0.1    Signal Attenuation(dB):  8.2      N/A     N/A     N/A    26.4    0.1      N/A           SNR Margin(dB):  7.1      N/A     N/A     N/A    3.9     5.3      N/A            TX Power(dBm):  1.2      N/A     N/A     N/A    8.3    -2.2      N/A

Your own IP Profile of 12.06Mbps suggests a sync speed of 12.5Mbps DS, but I'm not sure what your US sync speed will be (The BT test doesn't report the actual US IP Profile as such.



The example shown above synced at 13.17Mbps DS & 0.65Mbps US.

Can you try a wireless test?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Can you try a wireless test?

Just connected the wifi laptop. Same results download 11.7mbps upload 584kbps.

Edited by deleted (Tue 18-Sep-12 22:18:42)

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

I suspect your line with its estimated length of almost 2km is providing all it can for a VDSL2 connection.

Here's a similar low speed connection (stats from a HG612 on another ECI DSLAM):-

Text

1 23 45 67 89 1011 1213 1415 1617 1819 2021 22

# xdslcmd info --pbParams xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY statusStatus: Showtime Retrain Reason: 2Max:    Upstream rate = 698 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13156 Kbps Path:   0, Upstream rate = 650 Kbps, Downstream rate = 13170 Kbps  Discovery Phase (Initial) Band PlanUS: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771) DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083) Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan US: (0,95) DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)        VDSL Port Details       Upstream        DownstreamAttainable Net Data Rate:        698 kbps         13156 kbps Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        0.9 dBm           8.6 dBm============================================================================   VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3  Line Attenuation(dB):  8.2     65.2    62.2     N/A    26.4    0.1     0.1    Signal Attenuation(dB):  8.2      N/A     N/A     N/A    26.4    0.1      N/A           SNR Margin(dB):  7.1      N/A     N/A     N/A    3.9     5.3      N/A            TX Power(dBm):  1.2      N/A     N/A     N/A    8.3    -2.2      N/A

Your own IP Profile of 12.06Mbps suggests a sync speed of 12.5Mbps DS, but I'm not sure what your US sync speed will be (The BT test doesn't report the actual US IP Profile as such.



The example shown above synced at 13.17Mbps DS & 0.65Mbps US.

But i thought that VDSL2 was meant to be at least as good if not better on the upload side of things compared to ADSL2. Even with my line being 1900meters from the CAB i would expect more than .05mbps upload speed. As my line at double the distance on ADSL2 (4000meters) using ADSL2 was capable of 1.2mbps upload.

Ok, so it looks like that's what your line is really synced at.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Ok, so it looks like that's what your line is really synced at.

Does the FTTC DLM effect the upload and have a cap on it like it does with the download ?

Im thinking maybe just a restart of the modem would fix the upload speed? Because its has not been reset or re-synced at all since it was installed today. If the modem synced at a higher upload would it be evident in through put right away ? Or does it have a DLM thing that takes ages to raise its self ?

(im not going to try restarting the modem until daylight hours tomorrow, because I know i will lose download sync if i did it now at night time.)

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

But i thought that VDSL2 was meant to be at least as good if not better on the upload side of things compared to ADSL2. Even with my line being 1900meters from the CAB i would expect more than .05mbps upload speed. As my line at double the distance on ADSL2 (4000meters) using ADSL2 was capable of 1.2mbps upload.

I suppose it's feasible that your connection could actually be more than 2km in length.

Did the installation engineer mention its reported length (from his JDSU or Exfo tester)?

I have not seen any claims that US speeds are better than ADSL over long distances of 2km or so.

My own line is around 1km in length & I see around 4.5Mbps US sync speed & around 27Mbps to 28.5Mbps DS sync speeds.

I believe that VDSL2 speeds tail off dramatically from around 1km upward (DS & US), to the extent that there may be no gain whatsoever over ADSL for some longer length connections.

If distance is the ONLY issue, your connection should remain fairly error-free with SNRM only fluctuating slightly, albeit at lower speeds.

Access to your snapshot & ongoing stats will be essential to monitor that properly though.

If your connection can only use US tone band U0 (as per the example above, due to attenuation over distance), it should be noted that from tone 33 to 95, US bit-loading tones overlap with DS tones, so some US sync speed may be sacrifced to provide the highest possible DS sync speed.

Alternatively, there is a possibility of a "fault" on your D-side cabling.
The BT test failed the DS test, so maybe a "fault" can be reported, especially as your actual speeds fall short of the pre-installation estimate.

I'd give it two days tops, DLM wise.

Did you ever have any one come check the line for the ADSL issues ? Is your set up straight forward, as in it's not likely that one of the 'special needs' installers has bodged the install ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I'd give it two days tops, DLM wise.

Did you ever have any one come check the line for the ADSL issues ? Is your set up straight forward, as in it's not likely that one of the 'special needs' installers has bodged the install ?

The engineer ran tests on the loop and also i saw on his machine thing that there was like 0 CRC or HEC errors in the 3 min test thingy he did. So im thinking maybe the ADSL issue was an E side problem which has now gone ?

That or the line is interleaved already at the time of install therefore would not show CRC or HEC errors as they would be turned into "FEC errors". But i saw on his machine there was no "FEC" reading at all. Just CRC and HEC witch both read 0.

He said his thing said max rate 13mbps. I didn't think o ask about upload, or even check it while he was still here, as i didn't imagine it would be a problem. I assumed it would be at least what i had before 1meg or so and probably better..

Hmmm.

Setup is straight forward, connected directly to master socket that has no extensions to anywhere. Modem and router sit 2foot away from master.

Edited by deleted (Tue 18-Sep-12 23:07:31)

In reply to a post by Spasch:

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

Does this require loading the hacked firmware? If so, I am reluctant to do so for the first few days as i don't want to turn the modem off or do anything that might make my speed worse.

Hmmm [censored] my modem is a "ECI B-focus" somthing or other. Is there a hacked firmware for this so i can see my line stats ??

It requires the hacked firmware.

Pick one up off eBay - they're pretty cheap & it may actually work better than the ECI unit

Huawei modem do seem to work better on ECI DSLAMs than the ECI modems do. The ECI modem that was installed when I first got fibre syncs at around 62/20 compared to the Huawei I got off Ebay that syncs at around 70/20.

In reply to a post by simon194:

Huawei modem do seem to work better on ECI DSLAMs than the ECI modems do. The ECI modem that was installed when I first got fibre syncs at around 62/20 compared to the Huawei I got off Ebay that syncs at around 70/20.

Just curious. How do you know what speed the ECI modem syncs at?
Have you managed to unlock it?

The Sky router shows the sync details

Been away for work since the last time i posted. Came home and the upload is still stuck at 0.58mbps on everything.'

Download is still identical 11.74 actual, on speed tests. Same as before.

I have restarted the router and and the modem just now, to no change what so ever.

What is the best way to contact BT to get them to fix the upload ? I don't fancy talking to any Indian call centers or anything. :/

Edited by deleted (Fri 21-Sep-12 20:35:11)

For info for others - answered here about contacting BT_Care.

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

upload is still stuck at 0.58mbps

Download is still identical 11.74 actual, on speed tests. Same as before.

I have restarted the router and and the modem just now, to no change what so ever.

What is the best way to contact BT to get them to fix the upload ?

You need to be prepared for the fact that there might not actually be a fault.

From memory, around 18 months ago when FTTC was new, there were loads of graphs & articles around to show what speed was vs distance. The noticeable thing was that Upstream speeds hit zero first - showing that the limiting factor was when upstream ran out, not downstream (even though BT limit their installations based on downstream values)

I just found one of those old articles. It can be found here. Look at figure 10, which gives realistic speed measurements in the face of crosstalk from other subscribers, and see that Upstream speeds seem to hit zero at 1500 metres.

You may not experience such an amount of crosstalk, so the fall-off might not be quite so bad. However, I do believe that at 1900 metres you are right at the outer edge of where FTTC can provide service.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by DrDeath:

upload is still stuck at 0.58mbps

Download is still identical 11.74 actual, on speed tests. Same as before.

I have restarted the router and and the modem just now, to no change what so ever.

What is the best way to contact BT to get them to fix the upload ?

You need to be prepared for the fact that there might not actually be a fault.

From memory, around 18 months ago when FTTC was new, there were loads of graphs & articles around to show what speed was vs distance. The noticeable thing was that Upstream speeds hit zero first - showing that the limiting factor was when upstream ran out, not downstream (even though BT limit their installations based on downstream values)

I just found one of those old articles. It can be found here. Look at figure 10, which gives realistic speed measurements in the face of crosstalk from other subscribers, and see that Upstream speeds seem to hit zero at 1500 meters.

You may not experience such an amount of crosstalk, so the fall-off might not be quite so bad. However, I do believe that at 1900 meters you are right at the outer edge of where FTTC can provide service.

Well, ive had 3-4 engineers out and have personally decided after reading about VDSL that the upload speed being 2x slower than it was when i was on ADSL is unfortunately just the result of VDSL and my long 1800meter line. Still I get 11.5-12meg download which is almost 2x what i had before. The upload is 2x slower. But from research I have found out my self that this is just the way it is.

Also the last 200-400meters of my line is overhead and only serves 3 properties and from the engineers Ive had out say that its of the lowest guage and quality and should never have been put there in the first place. I think he said they have used drop wire for basically 400meters on poles to get to my house. So that does not help lol.

I must say though BTretail and the engineers have been just as bemused as i was as to why the upload is slower than what i had on ADSL, and that is the reason they kept sending engineers out to try to "fix" it. But alas I now know from my own research that this isn't really possible because of the way VDSL handles long lines on the upload side of things, so i have decided to close the case my self and just accept the upload sucks. But anyway i guess ill take 2x download speed over that.

I must commend BT retail for putting in massive effort in attempting to "fix" the issue. But after my own research i have decided there is no fault or anything to fix unfortunately for me.

I cannot fault the customer service I have received from BTcare, they have literally been pro-actively trying to help me and arranging engineers left right and center off their own backs. Very happy with that. They can pat them selfs on the back.


EDIT:
Oh and one more thing im on a ECI cab and with ECI modem i get 12-13meg download,
When using a Hauwei modem the download struggles to get over 8.5-9.5meg.
So just a little interesting observation there that may be of interest to others.

Edited by deleted (Sat 27-Oct-12 16:19:40)