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Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:06:05
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Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[link to this post]
 
Bit of a strange one, but I live in an area of Milton Keynes which has FTTP (was offered to join the trial a while back).

I am currently with Sky and want to get fibre (FTTC) with them, but they tell me it's not available in my area. The BT broadband checker says:

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports a WBC Fibre To The Premises technology with an estimated Broadband downstream line speed of up to 330Mbps and upstream line speed of up to 30Mbps.


I know my exchange (Bradwell Abbey) is Sky FTTC enabled, so can I only order FTTP and not FTTC? It seems with Zen/Plus Net that they also tell me FTTC is not compatible on my line.

I am not quite sure why I can also order both FTTP/FTTC with BT, but other ISPs can't seem to offer me FTTC. Any thoughts?
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:08:51
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
why do you say you can order FTTC from BT ?

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:14:38
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
why do you say you can order FTTC from BT ?


I have phoned them to place an order for BT Infinity - up to 100mb/s, unless this is a detuned FTTP service.


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Standard User ionic
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:17:48
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
Up to 100 must be FTTP based.
Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:24:15
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: ionic] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ionic:
Up to 100 must be FTTP based.


On the Infinity site I can order 16/38/76 and 100 - surely the first three would be FTTC?

Also, I thought FTTP/FTTC technologies were the same up to the street cabinets from the exchanges. Are they different?

Edited by MoneyBagger (Wed 03-Oct-12 22:26:36)

Standard User Ripley
(committed) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:26:25
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
correct

Freeserve Dial-Up --> BTopenworld --> <n>ildram -->Talk Talk LLU --> ZeN
DrayTek 2850 VN

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:30:47
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
If you can get FTTP, you really don't want FTTC!

Just in case your not aware FTTP is fibre all the way to your house, so your order 80 meg (or whatever speed) FTTP that's what you get, with FTTC it drops depending on how long your line is back to the cabinet.

There's not much FTTP about so I don't think you find it advertised on most ISP's website's - best to phone them, even then you may get someone who doesn't have a clue.

Plus Net are trialing it, so it would be worth contacting them, of course BT will also be able to supply it, as will some other ISP's, in theory Sky should be able to supply it too.

Edit

FTTP = fibre to the Property
FTTC = fibre to the Cabinet

Edited by R0NSKI (Wed 03-Oct-12 22:34:00)

Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:37:00
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Thanks

Yeah I am aware about FTTP. Given that installation is free for the trials, I guess it would be unwise not to take part given the estimated costs for an install once rolled out. The frustrating thing is Sky don't seem clued up or are not trialling it in my area. What I don't want to do is sign up with another ISP and find out in a few months Sky start trialling it in my area. Another problem is I need a contact at Sky who can tell me about their FTTP trials (South Harrow I last read).
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:45:35
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
I think you may be confusing FTTP with FTTP on demand, FTTP doesn't use street cabinets, and should have installation charges in line with FTTC from what I understand. BT basically covers the area with fibre, this is what you have available.

FTTP on demand, will when available incur quite high installation costs, and will only be available to areas that have existing FTTC cabinets, basically they run a fibre from existing fibre spines (supplies to the FTTC cabinets) to your property, and the customer has to pay for this. FTTP on demand is currently being trialled as well, and yes the lucky volunteers are getting free installs.

Edited by R0NSKI (Thu 04-Oct-12 08:16:21)

Standard User techguy
(committed) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:46:51
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
I think at the moment FTTP on the Bradwell Abbey exchange (where FTTP is being rolled out in MK and is the same exchange as I'm on) is only being offered to ISPs that currently provide services via BT Openreach's kit, Sky have their own kit in this exchange so won't currently be able to provide you with fbire until I expect Openreach declare the trial complete and start offering it to all providers.

Inifinity can be delivered over fibre to the premises and the speed simply throttled at the switch in the cabinet.

BT won't provide FTTC where FTTP is available

Virgin (ADSL) => Namesco => Newnet => O2 => Plusnet => Zen => Newnet => Zen => Freeola
Note: I don't lay turf for anyone. astro or otherwise, all views and opinions expressed are my own based on experience.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 03-Oct-12 22:58:32
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: techguy] [link to this post]
 
FTTP is actually available in all the speed variants that FTTC is and additional ones.
So it seems that only BT Retail have figured this out and thus are happy to supply a service.

So for example 40/10 on FTTP is the same price as on FTTC, but the big advantage you know you will connect at 40/10 and not have any DLM training etc

The handover at the telephone exchange is identical for FTTC and FTTP, and even the same routers should work, as the presentation via the openreach hardware in the home is identical. So if Sky and TalkTalk are not selling it, then its because they've not got their heads around FTTP or believe it is of such limited availability that it is not work selling

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Wed 03-Oct-12 23:10:19
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
FTTP is actually available in all the speed variants that FTTC is and additional ones.
So it seems that only BT Retail have figured this out and thus are happy to supply a service.


Openreach must be hemorrhaging money on providing FFTP connections to users who want FTTC speeds. I would have thought installation costs must run in the thousands!.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Thu 04-Oct-12 00:31:30
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
Install of FTTP, from the street into the house, is an average of 7 hours. FTTC must average less than an hour. It must indeed be costing them money - but they must also have budgeted to spend that money (we're already talking 12 years to get payback on FTTC).

FTTP, while costing more, is also more future-proof. Higher investment now, but a longer payback time can be endured because it *will* go on-and-on-and-on.

But the point is... that ultimately, BT *are* doing some areas as FTTP alone. Take advantage!

BT have, wisely, seen that only selling 100/30 or 330/X services on FTTP will affect take-up in the areas that are FTTP-only. It makes sense to make the lesser services (such as 40/10) available for people who want a lesser leap in SFBB.

And those people, rightly, ask why they are paying more than those who get the same service on FTTC.

BTW - Plusnet are doing FTTP as a trial at the moment. It is open for any customer.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 04-Oct-12 01:36:28
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
FTTP can be fibre from the exchange with no street cabinet involved.

There are FTTP products with the same speeds as FTTC for example :-

Up to 40Mbit/s / 15Mbit/s "Transition product" (including Simultaneous Provide)

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Ribble
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-12 08:04:35
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
basically they run a fibre from the cabinet to your property


Tis a myth. The topology is the same as native FTTP but they will be use existing spine cable from the exchange that feed the FTTC cabinets to feed the PONs
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-12 08:14:15
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, corrected my post.

That does make more sense, and it's more robust - not likely to get taken out by a car wink Some of these cabinet look very prone to being run over so to speak.

Edited by R0NSKI (Thu 04-Oct-12 08:17:07)

Standard User ionic
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Oct-12 08:15:59
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: Ripley] [link to this post]
 
Wrong as explained in other posts above.
Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Thu 04-Oct-12 09:49:40
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: ionic] [link to this post]
 
Plus Net are no longer accepting new trialists in Milton Keynes.

I am tied in with Sky for another few months as my telephone provider, so this would exclude me from joining BT Infinity at the moment.

Only real option is for me to give Sky a kick and see what they can do. They were slow on the FTTC take up, and are behind the curve on FTTP too now!

- Update: Another interesting thing here is that we have two phone lines, one to Bradwell Abbey and a dedicated line into Newport Pagnell (which was done in the early stages of ADSL at a fair expense to BT). No one else in my area has a line going to Newport Pagnell (according to the BT engineer who came a few months ago because of a techincal fault), yet BT have put in a fibre line between the cabinet and Newport Pagnell because FTTP is available on both phone lines that I have.

Edited by MoneyBagger (Thu 04-Oct-12 10:08:14)

Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-12 10:18:32
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
You'll probably find that FTTP is location based, rather than where the line goes to, whichever line you convert the fibre will connect to the same place.

Standard User MoneyBagger
(newbie) Thu 04-Oct-12 10:24:16
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
You'll probably find that FTTP is location based, rather than where the line goes to, whichever line you convert the fibre will connect to the same place.


Interesting. So do they pull out the existing wiring that goes from the cabinet to my master sockets or run fibre alongside the existing wiring?
Standard User Spasch
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Oct-12 10:38:50
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MoneyBagger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MoneyBagger:
Interesting. So do they pull out the existing wiring that goes from the cabinet to my master sockets or run fibre alongside the existing wiring?
No, the copper remains for voice service. New fibre is run to your property.
Standard User simon194
(member) Thu 04-Oct-12 11:25:19
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: Spasch] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Spasch:
In reply to a post by MoneyBagger:
Interesting. So do they pull out the existing wiring that goes from the cabinet to my master sockets or run fibre alongside the existing wiring?
No, the copper remains for voice service. New fibre is run to your property.

That's unless you take the Fibre Voice Access option then the copper isn't really needed but I'm not sure if it's being offered on residential services yet.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 04-Oct-12 11:30:58
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
With Fibre Voice Access the existing copper is left in place.

Only locations in the UK where this will NOT be the case is

Ebbsfleet where the estate build is a pure fibre one and the Fibre Only Exchange trial locations (3 areas) where copper recovery will take place.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Thu 04-Oct-12 12:47:30
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Oh - FOX is now in 3 locations? Where, other than Deddington?

And do we have an idea of what aspect it is about these that makes FOX an experiment worth trialling? If the trial gets considered successful, what kind of rollout would it herald?

I haven't yet got a good feel for what makes it worth turning a rural exchange into a fibre-only location (other, of course, than releasing the exchange building itself).
Standard User greenglide
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-12 14:03:04
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
I haven't yet got a good feel for what makes it worth turning a rural exchange into a fibre-only location (other, of course, than releasing the exchange building itself).


It is possible to see implementation of ADSL all those years ago as a "lifeline" for the small rural exchanges as the distance between the CPE and the exchange became relevant again.

A fibre only exchange would provide an option (should BT wish to go that away) of replacing the small exchanges as the distance to the exchange would no longer be an issue as the fibre could be run "anywhere".

Whether BT has this in its plans I dont know but if they were to build a telephone network now from scratch they would not (hopefully) use copper and lots of small exchanges.

One of the problems is that the roll out of any non copper based network work be a huge undertaking and the early exchanges would be likely to suffer problems as subscribers wished to remain with their ADSL service.

BT have tried this before - remember TPON?

BT Infinity 2 - IP profile 77 / 20 - super fast!
Previously BE Unlimited - 21,000 Download 1,200 Upload but then moved house - 6,500 Down, 1Mb/s up - gutted!
Ex <n>ildram , been to SKY MAX - 15,225 Download
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 04-Oct-12 14:09:32
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
Deddington, Oxfordshire (NGA handover site: Banbury)
Pickmere, Cheshire (NGA handover site: Northwich)
Sutton, Cheshire (NGA handover site: Macclesfield)

TPON was conceived in the days before internet access for the masses was considered important, hence the dead end.

I am sure that BT plans to close off lots of exchanges once fibre backhaul for both voice and data is in place.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-12 16:02:44
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by greenglide:
One of the problems is that the roll out of any non copper based network work be a huge undertaking and the early exchanges would be likely to suffer problems as subscribers wished to remain with their ADSL service.


Surely if it suited the grand plan they could simply cap the profiles for anybody that didn't wish to upgrade to fibre speeds, obviously they would have to supply modems and do the installs FOC.

Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Thu 04-Oct-12 17:10:53
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by greenglide:
It is possible to see implementation of ADSL all those years ago as a "lifeline" for the small rural exchanges as the distance between the CPE and the exchange became relevant again.

Absolutely. In terms of POTS, the rural exchanges were becoming nothing more than a shed to house a concentrator, and to terminate the backhaul to a "proper" exchange.

The optical kit nowadays will let that reduce to an underground jointbox, so long as it is within 18km (I think) of the main exchange - or, at least, the GEA handover node.

In this BT powerpoint, they talk of an exchange of the size of their Ipswich one (15k subscribers) changing from 900 racks (20CN, presumably System X + ADSL kit) down to 20 racks (for a 21CN MSAN) down to 1 rack (for what they term long-reach GPON). That's for a fair-sized market 3 exchange!

I can certainly see the technology, when fully applied, gives BT the option to do away with large amounts of exchange real estate.

The document above also showed the drop in power usage (from 800kW to 100W), which, I guess, is a fair drop in running costs.

I've also seen (associated with Ebbsfleet) a comment that maintenance of fibre is 10x easier than copper. Presumably the jointing is a more permanent solution, and perhaps the cables don't snap as much.

They're the benefits I can see, but the upgrade cost is the other matter. That must be huge, but I don't have any way to really compare the two sides of the balance.

The problem, as I see it, is that at some point in the future, we'll have a complete national fibre network. The problem for Openreach is how to do this (affordably) when your starting point is the copper network. The problem for anyone else (like Fujitsu) is how to do this when your starting point is nothing, *and* the competition has copper.

So - is FOX a proper part of the solution to this? Can BT afford this?

I think the trial *must* be part of the assessment as to the affordability of this.

BT have tried this before - remember TPON?

Exactly. Are we about to get 3 villages in a (different) dead-end solution?
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Fri 05-Oct-12 08:07:22
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
The problem, as I see it, is that at some point in the future, we'll have a complete national fibre network. The problem for Openreach is how to do this (affordably) when your starting point is the copper network.


Surely that is what BT are doing now with FTTC and FTTP, the start of a complete fibre telecoms system, and the best part is they are effectivly getting large sums of money to upgrade some of the network, where they get BDUK funding. Then with FTTP on demand even the customers will be directly paying towards upgrading the network.

Eventually they may gradually upgrade more areas to full fibre, bit by bit spreading that massive cost out over the years.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 05-Oct-12 08:13:05
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
Then with FTTP on demand even the customers will be directly paying towards upgrading the network.
What a novel idea tongue smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User R0NSKI
(committed) Fri 05-Oct-12 08:16:18
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
What a novel idea tongue smile.


LOL smile Rather than indirectly through their normal bills tongue

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 05-Oct-12 08:22:57
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
And taxes. That couldn't be where BDUK money comes from, surely?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sat 06-Oct-12 10:13:11
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Surely that is what BT are doing now with FTTC and FTTP, the start of a complete fibre telecoms system, and the best part is they are effectivly getting large sums of money to upgrade some of the network, where they get BDUK funding. Then with FTTP on demand even the customers will be directly paying towards upgrading the network.

Eventually they may gradually upgrade more areas to full fibre, bit by bit spreading that massive cost out over the years.
When I'm being positive, I have exactly the same thoughts.

When I'm being even more positive, the FOX exchanges are a distinct pointer in exactly this direction - allowing BT to aim at removing the cost of the exchange building. It's almost a roots-upward 21CN using fibre.

But when I'm being negative, I wonder if this is all something of a dead-end, like TPON. Both aspects get questioned on scale...

Will the technology deployed for Fibre-on-demand really be able to cope with every house in the area (eventually) being swapped onto GPON fibre? Will it truly give everyone future-proof speeds?

Will the ad-hoc deployment of fibre - to individual "rich" homes on demand - really lay the groundwork (splitters, manifolds, ducting, etc) for future homes in the same direction to be easily connected? Will the ad-hoc nature ever lead to a "planned" network?

The FOX exchanges are the other way around: Will their planned nature be affordable? Will it lead to widespread deployment?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 06-Oct-12 11:56:27
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
PON has developments where it is going faster and faster and WDM gives the option of wavelength unbundling, though Openreach is not offering this yet.

TPON was created in the days when fibre for consumer internet was considered the realm of billionaires so never considered for more than voice. Voice is destined to be just another data channel.

Fibre on Demand will involve the usual FTTP kit so the manifold close to the property ordering will support another 7 or 11 properties. The first person ordered will not be expected to underwrite the full cost of this roll-out, question is really how much for the first, and whether getting 2 or 3 to signup at same time might reduce price.

FoX is a 20 to 30 year time plan who knows wireless may be the king by then or we will be living in megacities with just automated farms

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 06-Oct-12 12:33:27
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
FoX is a 20 to 30 year time plan who knows wireless may be the king by then or we will be living in megacities with just automated farms ...
... owned by Sky.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sat 06-Oct-12 15:15:25
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Re: Can get FTTP but not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The first person ordered will not be expected to underwrite the full cost of this roll-out, question is really how much for the first, and whether getting 2 or 3 to signup at same time might reduce price.

That'll be interesting to see.

While looking at the power aspects (for arguing with you-know-who), I can see that electricity has gone the other way - at least according to the electricians working at the coal-face. Because people are free to choose DNO, they can no longer charge the cost of a new supply over a number of years. Instead you get stung for the whole cost in one go - and you take the hit for the entire cost of a new transformer if it is needed. crazy!

Perhaps the concept of 1 main wholesale source for access isn't so dumb. Especially as the government's intended competitor isn't playing ball at nationwide thinking.

FoX is a 20 to 30 year time plan who knows wireless may be the king by then or we will be living in megacities with just automated farms

Indeed - crystall balls on maximum, Captain.

Though I don't think wireless will *ever* be able to replace fixed provision for everyone.
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