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Standard User chubsta
(member) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:19:30
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Affect of distance on fibre line


[link to this post]
 
I have always been cursed with a poor connection - max 3Mbs - due to being quite a long way from the exchange but the wondrous fibre is now available on my cabinet! I am about 3-400 yards from the cabinet itself, and as far as i can see the copper line follows a straight logical route to my property.

Is anyone able to take a guess as to how quickly the signal will drop over such a distance and therefore what speed I am likely to actually see as a maximum? The BT Checker says 57/20, does that seem reasonable? I have gone for Sky's 80/20 package so would obviously like it to be as close to the max as possible having been on a 24meg service for the last few years and only seeing about 15% of that...
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:24:50
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
There's a table here http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/fibre-broadband.... that says around 45Mbps.


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Standard User chubsta
(member) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:31:06
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that, i hadnt spotted that page - should be good enough for my needs as long as i get decent uploads (want to be able to watch movies from my home server at the other halfs house!)


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Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:40:07
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
So you're looking for around 3Mbps upload? Shouldn't be a problem - as long as you have copper cable from the cab and not aluminium.


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Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:41:43
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
Everything is a best guess estimate and there will be a lot of factors that can affect it. Cable gauge, actual length, number of joints, amount above ground, background noise and proximity to industrial premises, number of ADSL and VDSL customers in cable, position of your pair in the larger cable ...

I am currently 450m from the cabinet (actual) and am forecast to receive 57/19 - the modem however gives attainable rate figures of around 63/24 - which does vary slightly.

So, if everything is "average" and yours is typical then the checker estimate will be in the right ball park.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User chubsta
(member) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:50:56
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I live in quite a small village a very high population of pensioners etc - cant see the uptake of fibre being massive to be honest, no industrial premises etc. The only problem i have had with my current line is that we are so far from the exchange, but other than that its ok so i guess i can just hope for the best with a certain amount of confidence that all will be well!
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 10:55:53
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
I know they have no direct bearing on FTTC services but if you can list your router stats: Attenuation, SNR and sync speeds. A quick review will say whether it is a good/bad line for the distance and if it shows good sync speed for the attenuation then you could be looking at the higher end of the estimates.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Fri 14-Dec-12 11:01:15
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
There is actually quite a difference between 300 and 400 yards, at 300 you may well get maximum possible sync, at 400 it's much less likely but not impossible.

Kevin

plusnet Extra Fibre (80/20)
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 11:16:12
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
Go and measure the actual distance - pace it out. FTTC cabinet to standard cabinet then along the path you think it takes to the pole, then pole to eaves and eaves to socket. Add on 3 metres for where the wire will go from terminal in FTTC cab, through the base, run underground and then back up into the standard cabinet. Another 8 metres for the vertical on the pole, another 8 metres for the catenary and drop down your wall ... and it soon becomes a little longer than you thought.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 14-Dec-12 11:25:16
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
I'm 510 metres from mine but sync (during the summer at least at full speed. Just. It's dropped a bit with winter but I'm still getting over 74Mb/s down and 16Mb/s up.

Edit: I really don't understand the figures on that web page. It's possible Google maps is a bit innaccurate but no way is my cab only 200 metres away. It's prolly more than that even in a straight line let alone by pavement.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&g...

From roundabout at bottom to road at top left.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 14-Dec-12 11:28:38)

Standard User MadPom
(regular) Fri 14-Dec-12 11:46:58
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
I'm about 600m from my cabinet following the likely cable path. When first installed I got the full 38/10 and after the speed upgrade 56/20. A couple of months back someone on my street had it installed (and Openreach kindly disconnected me for a few hours whilst they installed it) and it plummeted to 32/20. Now that the Xmas lights are in people's gardens I'm seeing 25/20 at night. BT adsl checker says I should be seeing 58/20.

Basically from my experience it starts out great and as it becomes more popular it just nosedives.

(Speeds I quote above are the IP Profile for my line according to the BT Speedtester - throughput is usually ~1mbps lower downstream and ~5mbps lower upstream)
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 11:56:49
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MadPom] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MadPom:
Now that the Xmas lights are in people's gardens I'm seeing 25/20 at night. BT adsl checker says I should be seeing 58/20.


As they are causing interference with a telecommunications service, you have a legal right to ask them to stop. If they refuse then you can go through OFCOM but that will take too long. Or you could go to court directly.

During the summer I was speaking to an acquaintance about interference issues. Last December he had lost almost all his VDSL services and it was soon tacked down to on house with a large number of lights. Apparently he asked them to stop and they refused. A solicitors letter was ignored. The third try was a strongly worded letter stating that legal action would be forthcoming within 24 hours and suggested that the householder took legal advice as they would be liable for all costs - they turned most of their lights OFF.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:11:25
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Christmas lights would have no affect at that distance
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:14:05
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
When you know what you are talking about, feel free to comment.

Posting totally incorrect rubbish will mislead people - but then that is second nature to you. You know nothing about the subject so just shut up and stay out of it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:18:53
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I suugest you do not understand what you are talking about. Chistmas lights will only in some circumstance affect Broadband and they would need to be withing less than a metre away. A tree next door will have no impact
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:22:02
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Yet more totally misleading information. I have said it once, and I will repeat it. Stay out of a subject you know nothing about.

Your last statement is total and utter rubbish ...

When you have experience in dealing with RFI issues then feel free to comment but that will be a long time coming.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:25:35
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
You are just displaying how little you know about the subject. Casrry on spouting your rubbish. Do you light bulbs in your house interfere with your Broadand or is it the fairies in the fairy lights down the road. Complete and total bilge from you
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:28:28
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Just shut up.

Light bulbs are totally different in their operation to Christmas Tree lights ... but you do not understand the basics. PROOF of your total lack of any knowledge on the subject.

Even the OP has seen the effects ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:33:03
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
That real shows how daft you are. Unless you re using low energy bulbs they are identical other than for voltage pd
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:38:20
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Christmas lights, which run on cheap imported power supplies, have been ackowledged as a severe problem for internet connections for as long as I remember. It's the PS that is the issue, not the lights themselves.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Fri 14-Dec-12 13:41:25
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
You can use www.walkjogrun.net to trace a route and measure it's distance, without getting cold and wet smile

MHC, if I remember correctly don't you have some qualifications in RFI?

And I would think it's more likely to be the controllers causing the interference via constantly switching the lights on and off, pulsing etc, not just by a bulb being on as bob puts it.

I'm on about 450 meter line and get about 45/12, which is at the lower end of what others get, interestingly I was first on the cab but my speeds have stayed the same since about three days after install in August.

Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 14:14:00
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
THere are two potential soiuces of interference. THe lights them self if they are of the flashing variety and the PSU but in both cases they would need to be very close to the line to cause a problem. TYpically less than a metre so a tree in a house next dor is not going to cause a problem. I suspect the problem may be more to do with the damp weather
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 14:37:22
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The PSU even if from China should meet the requirements of the CE Marking directive. which amongst other thing covers safety and emc/rfi

If the product is sourced from outside of the EU it is the repsonsibility of whoever imports it into the EU to obtain the relevent approvals and CE mark it and sign the Declaration of Conformity. They can if they choose use a Notified body to obtaain this approval.There has been some product from China that has used marking similar to the CE logo marking and claiming it stands for China Export.THese are not CE approved.
Standard User iwish
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 14:42:09
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
You continue to give out bad and wrong advice. I suggests you take a week or several off and give us all a break
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 16:37:36
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bob_s2:
... so a tree in a house next dor is not going to cause a problem.
Quite simply, wrong.
I suspect the problem may be more to do with the damp weather
Really? How quaint. In actual fact it is the cold, causing the diameter, and similarly the circumference, of the copper wire to decrease. As current flows along the outside of the copper it therefore has lower conductivity.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 14-Dec-12 17:56:20
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Just to back up what so many others have said, you are wrong.

And before you take your usual tack, bear in mind I am one of the few users of this forum who actually faults and fixes this stuff for a living.

Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 17:59:30
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Sorry you are wrong xmas tree lights in a garden doors away will have no effect. I suggest you need better training
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:00:40
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
(breeze)

Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:01:00
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: iwish] [link to this post]
 
I suggest that you have not a clue as to what you are talking about. PLease describe the type of interference your are taling about and its frequency
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:06:46
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The effect of that though should not be great and also the line wil be very marginally shorter in cold weather. I suspect that it may be more the condition of the line with moisture getting into the joints
Standard User iwish
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:09:24
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
If your so right Bob then please post links to back you up on this.
Do you know what electrical interference is Bob. Do you understand what it does.

Let me help you out here
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:14:54
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bob_s2:
I suugest you do not understand what you are talking about. Chistmas lights will only in some circumstance affect Broadband and they would need to be withing less than a metre away. A tree next door will have no impact


Sure, I mean it isn't like the electrical noise could get onto the neighbour's line which likely shares a distribution point and multiple-pair cable with the OPs.
Standard User iwish
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 18:20:46
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
I dont think you have the intelligence to have fact full argument with Zarjaz.
All your doing now is trying to stir a forum war with you stupid and uncalled for comments.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Fri 14-Dec-12 20:00:18
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Of course we all know just how much faulty/dodgy/cheap/dangerous stuff makes it into this county don't we, well all accept Bob!

Bless him, he thinks everybody is responsible, especially that market trader flogging the dodgy gear from China!

Standard User chubsta
(member) Fri 14-Dec-12 22:41:38
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Wish I'd never asked the origional question now ...
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 14-Dec-12 22:48:50
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
Just stop reading when Bob_s2 joins in. Everything before that is valid wink


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 23:11:13
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: iwish] [link to this post]
 
If they want to look daft thats doun to them
Standard User Bob_s2
(committed) Fri 14-Dec-12 23:13:23
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: iwish] [link to this post]
 
Always plenty nof daft posters that no nothingh about what they are talking about. You are another of those
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 14-Dec-12 23:22:09
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
Have you found anyone on these forums who is ever right when they disagree with you? If not, I believe that you recently started tweeting under the nick pontifex.

Though if that is indeed you, nonfacts would be more appropriate.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User ayeaye
(newbie) Fri 14-Dec-12 23:26:00
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Come on folks, don't feed the troll. Best left ignored and it might go away.
Possibly.

_____________________________________
BT Infinity
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MCM
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 14-Dec-12 23:49:08
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bob_s2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bob_s2:
Always plenty nof daft posters that no nothingh about what they are talking about. You are another of those
Your ignorance must make your mummy proud, now may I suggest asking her to put your toys back in the pram and get back to playing with them.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 03:14:43
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: chubsta] [link to this post]
 
Ignoring the flame war going on in the other part of the thread...

I've had 2 FTTC lines, from which I've experienced the good & the average.

- The first line was 550 to 600 metres, as reported by the engineer's test equipment. On the old frequency plans, and a package of 40/10, it originally estimated at 31/8 and sync'ed at 40/10. The error rate on the line meant DLM intervened to take it down to 36/10 after 2 days.

When the new frequency plan was introduced (ready for 80/20), the modem went back to a full 40/10 sync. At the time, the modem indicated it had a maximum attainable speed of 60/16, but DLM would have probably reduced that to 50/16. However, we left that place before 80/20 packages became available.

The current checker for that line predicts 51/11.

- The new line is 400 metres, measured on Google maps along the likely cable route. This currently predicts at 55/18, but syncs at 80/20, without any DLM intervention.

The modem originally showed a maximum attainable speed of 83/25, but that has gradually dropped to 81/26 over the last year, until 3 weeks ago. Right now it shows 78/26, but we haven't re-synced for a month so still get 80/20. (Is this latest drop caused by neighbours, weather, or christmas lights? Who knows, but perhaps we'll see in January...)

Conclusion:
From my experience, it shows that a line of 400 metres *can* get a full 80/20 connection, but only in the absence of any interference.

Unfortunately, the biggest source of interference is going to come from neighbours getting FTTC too - and so could come at any time, before or after you connect yourself. The impact would be seen by DLM intervention that steals 10-20% of the capacity of the line, which (I think) is what was happening on my original line.

So... Hope for the best, but accept that future take-up might see your speed drop back to the predicted one.

Until vectoring has an impact...
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(committed) Sat 15-Dec-12 08:48:57
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
Unfortunately, the biggest source of interference is going to come from neighbours getting FTTC too - and so could come at any time, before or after you connect yourself. The impact would be seen by DLM intervention that steals 10-20% of the capacity of the line, which (I think) is what was happening on my original line.


Just one comment to add:-

For connections unable to max out a 40Mb/2Mb service, increasing the US profile from 2Mb to 10Mb can increase US speed, at the expense of some DS speed.

I conducted extensive tests & experiments in conjunction with my ISP, Plusnet using differing connection profiles & on my own connection when US profile is 2Mb, I can achieve around 32Mb+ DS sync speed.

When using the 10Mb US profile, I can achieve around 5Mb to 6Mb US sync speed (i.e. 3Mb to 4Mb increase) at the expense of DS sync speed reducing to 28Mb to 29Mb (i.e. 3Mb to 4Mb decrease).

e.g. currently in sync at 29262 kbps / 5782 kbps, against attainable rates of 35100 kbps / 5804 kbps.

Last week it was 28543 kbps / 5582 kbps against attainable rates of 33356 kbps / 5687 kbps.

Maybe coincidence, but I ALWAYS seem to achieve slightly higher speeds when the weather is wet & very cold.

This week, temperatures have been around -5 degrees C earlier in the week & it has been very, very wet for the last couple of days.

My D-side connection is anywhere between 850m & 1000m from the PCP (depending on the exact, unconfirmed route), with the fibre cabinet itself being around 30m or so further away.

The connection resynced "on the fly" at its currently higher speed yesterday morning.

Whenever DLM has been reset following many external fault repairs, at a wide open profile, (interleaving completely OFF), DS sync speed has been as high as 36Mb until DLM takes action to improve stability - usually within the first couple of days, but very occasionally around 8 days or so later.

As I monitor my own connection (& some other users' connections) somewhat obsessively, I can state that all my comments are based on empirical & factual data.

P.S. My connection doesn't seem to be affected by Christmas lights - not too many houses on the way from the cabinets (in my direction), but our own aren't on (yet).
I have, however, seen some other connections suffer (slightly) due to Christmas lights being switched on.

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Sat 15-Dec-12 08:55:24)

Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 08:58:58
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
I'm putting ours up today, only one set flash, I think the others are static. Plenty of lights up along the route our line takes, although it is underground.

Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(committed) Sat 15-Dec-12 09:22:06
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
@ RONSKI,

Have you thought about running with the ECI modem for a week or so, just to see if speeds do increase, as we suspect there may just be a slight incompatibility when using a HG612 on an ECI DSLAM connection (despite Openreach engineers apparently having been told there is NO incompatibility - as reported by an engineer in the Kitz forum a few weeks ago)?

Grabbing the stats immediately after eventually reinstating the HG612 might just reveal some interesting data.

The last time I looked (yesterday), your connection was still exhibiting blocks of high DS FEC/RSCorr error counts that MIGHT just be having a slightly negative effect upon how DLM interprets your connection's stability, despite otherwise low error counts.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 09:56:44
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
I did finally did get an unlocked ECI V1 modem - I bought it off ebay, I also have another V1 type, which I couldn't unlock, and two new types, also I couldn't unlock them either, none of them would seem to take any input from my two UART adapters, I did get plenty of output though. Yes that is a total of 4 ECI modems, need to check they still work and stick two of them on ebay.

Any way, last weekend I decided to try my new unlocked ECI modem, it reported a lower attainable rate of around 45Mbps (51 on the HG612), wish I'd got a screen shot now, but I soon ran into problems. I lost access to my router, and eventually the router it'self seemed to lose all it's setting - had to restore from a backup, not sure if this was just coincidence or not, I'll try again one day.

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 15-Dec-12 10:21:08
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Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
the error rate I suspect also has to be consistent, yesterday my line generated over 7000 errors (or rather the last 24 hours). No DLM kicked in.

First 4000 came when I lost 20 meg attainable sync and probably came when the line was readjusting (probably a new install), then I got another burst of 3000 this morning around 1am, in between those times however the crc error rate is pretty much 0 so its not an ongoing thing.

Talktalk stated on their forum to a customer their own DLM requires an error rate of 300 per hour for at least 3 consecutive hours then will kick in, so thats a ballpoint although from another isp.

My attianable rate was 110mbit when I first checked, no idea if it was ever even higher, BT estimated me at 65mbit and my cabinet to socket distance is 200m. Documents I have read on crosstalk consider that with 20 lines active in a bundle on vdsl2 a average loss of sync speed is estimated at 40% so quite significant, 50% of 110mbit is 55mbit, so my 65mbit estimate I guess isnt too far of a 40% loss and I think thats what BT base their estimates on.

Reports from people like Qas who have shorter lines than me but lower attainable speeds the probable reasons are they have more crosstalk, vectoring apparently will get rid of this unpredictability as will get rid of most of interference aka crosstalk.

I also read in a few places Huawei are quite advanced on vectoring tech but ECI not as much, so I wonder if this will lead to a staggered rollout of the tech or will BT wait for both vendors to be ready, alcatel already rolling it out, because vectoring seems quite powerful removing most of this 40% or so of crosstalk. With this I think lines at 400m will get 80mbit sync (as they can do now with no crosstalk). I hope tho if vectoring is used speeds stay at 80 so people can enjoy healthy snr margins with DLM leaving them alone rather thn pushing for a slightly higher speed product of 100mbit and then have lines fighting with DLM again.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 15-Dec-12 10:23:09)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 15-Dec-12 11:01:36
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In actual fact it is the cold, causing the diameter, and similarly the circumference, of the copper wire to decrease. As current flows along the outside of the copper it therefore has lower conductivity.
I thought the electrons were sluggish in cold weather, thereby increasing the impedance.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 15-Dec-12 11:10:30
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
I thought the electrons were sluggish in cold weather, thereby increasing the impedance.

Of course not. And if the weather is cold enough, the copper becomes superconductive and you get infinite bandwidth.
Unfortunately, by that point anybody who can use the bandwidth is dead.
Standard User timl
(member) Sat 15-Dec-12 12:52:21
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
That's interesting I've got an ECI CAB and modem and wondered if swapping it for the HG612 would affect the stability of the line. From your experience is the HG612 better?

Thanks
Tim

Edited: didn't include my name!

Plusnet FTTC 80/20

Edited by timl (Sat 15-Dec-12 12:52:59)

Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 14:12:04
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: timl] [link to this post]
 
I wouldn't make any judgements on the ECI v HG612 just yet, I'm not quite sure what happened when I tried, but with Christmas coming up and some time off work (although less than I thought and I may have to help my brother move house) I will try again and see what happens next time round.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 15-Dec-12 16:41:17
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Talktalk stated on their forum to a customer their own DLM requires an error rate of 300 per hour for at least 3 consecutive hours then will kick in, so thats a ballpoint although from another isp.
If that's regarding their LLU ADSL2+, fair enough. If it's regarding their Fibre offerings it's twaddle.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 15-Dec-12 18:01:49
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
its regarding their own adsl LLU of course.

What we dont know is even tho isp's have no control over the openreach cabinet equipment it may be possible that technical staff at isp's have been informed on the DLM algorithms so would also possibly know when DLM kicks on that as well.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 15-Dec-12 18:03:21)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:21:01
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Actually you can't trust Google Maps for measurement. I happened to keep an eye on my car's display today coming back from the golf range and the distance is slightly more than 0.2 of a mile or 300 metres. And I'm obviously right at the limit of 80Mb/s down although the modem thinks I could have 30 up.

Still - that's better than the 65Mb/s that TBB page suggests.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Sat 15-Dec-12 22:22:13)

Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:26:20
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Actually you can't trust Google Maps for measurement. I happened to keep an eye on my car's display today coming back from the golf range and the distance is slightly more than 0.2 of a mile or 300 metres.
I think I'd place considerably more trust in Google maps than an odometer in any car...

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:28:14
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
You mean they have read SINET like anyone can?

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:30:01
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
My attianable rate was 110mbit when I first checked, no idea if it was ever even higher, BT estimated me at 65mbit and my cabinet to socket distance is 200m. Documents I have read on crosstalk consider that with 20 lines active in a bundle on vdsl2 a average loss of sync speed is estimated at 40% so quite significant, 50% of 110mbit is 55mbit, so my 65mbit estimate I guess isnt too far of a 40% loss and I think thats what BT base their estimates on.

Reports from people like Qas who have shorter lines than me but lower attainable speeds the probable reasons are they have more crosstalk, vectoring apparently will get rid of this unpredictability as will get rid of most of interference aka crosstalk.


The graph that I think comes best to showing the effect of crosstalk on UK lines can be found in a Broadband Forum document on Vectoring - See figure 6 on page 12. It covers profile 17a, but is for 26 AWG cable (0.4mm) while BT seems to use 0.5mm, which ought to give better speeds for the same distance (but no idea of the impact on crosstalk).

Ignoring vectoring, the blue crosses show the range of speeds seen at the same distance, and demonstrates how it varies. I imagine that BT's estimator responds with numbers that match either the lowest cross, or the (even lower) inverted triangle.

But seeing the graph leaves me dreaming of the day that vectoring comes in...

I also read in a few places Huawei are quite advanced on vectoring tech but ECI not as much, so I wonder if this will lead to a staggered rollout of the tech or will BT wait for both vendors to be ready, alcatel already rolling it out,

I've seen it suggested that BT's ECI equipment is limited to perform vectoring within the linecard (ie within one card on the shelf of the cabinet), and that new shelves are needed to allow vectoring to work across all lines on all 4 cards.

Perhaps new cabinets, such as the BDUK ones, will come with the upgrade.

No idea about Huawei though.

With this I think lines at 400m will get 80mbit sync (as they can do now with no crosstalk). I hope tho if vectoring is used speeds stay at 80 so people can enjoy healthy snr margins with DLM leaving them alone rather thn pushing for a slightly higher speed product of 100mbit and then have lines fighting with DLM again.

From that graph, it looks like 120Mbps at 400 metres ... but I know what you mean.

I suspect that BT's research guys are playing with this (and DLM) over in Suffolk, working out what is going to work best in reality, rather than theory.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:42:04
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Vectoring usually also limits the competition to only one firm controlling the FTTC - and sub loop unbundling is something Ofcom fought for so a few years away

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:49:06
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Actually you can't trust Google Maps

LOL. Good point...

For completeness, Google say 400m, Bing says 400m, Streetmap says 500m, and Ordnance Survey says 400m.
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Sat 15-Dec-12 22:54:03
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Still - that's better than the 65Mb/s that TBB page suggests.


I'm at 450m from PCP and my sync is 48945kbps / 10497kbps - but the attainable is 56576kbps / 9551kbps. My estimate was only 44meg/6meg - so I'm slightly above, so happy, but keeping fingers crossed I don't get too many neighbours switching from VM.

I'm expecting "FTTP on demand" to be unaffordable (£1500 to £3000) or completely unavailable due to living in a flat. I'd probably be tempted if it was under £1000.

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Sun 16-Dec-12 01:05:28
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes. I hear it's proving to be a problem in Germany.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 16-Dec-12 01:16:03
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
You mean they have read SINET like anyone can?


Does SINET have that level of granularity?

Only thing I could find was the below:

http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/498v4p2.pdf

2.2 User Network Interface - General

2.2.1 Dynamic Line Management

Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly
manages lines to maintain a target link quality (speed and stability). It does this for as
long as the product exists.

At provision, the line is put on “wide open” VDSL2 line profiles allowing the
upstream and downstream line speeds to run at the upper limit of the product option
selected.

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected.
Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must
intervene, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the
preceding day.

If DLM intervenes it will set a profile with a maximum rate and a minimum rate,
where the minimum rate is set at approximately half of the maximum rate. The
purpose of the minimum rate is to ensure that the line does not train at a rate which is
significantly below the level the line should be able to achieve. If this happened, then
the line is likely to remain at a very low rate until a re-train is forced by the user by
powering off the modem.

Note : It is the DLM system that sets the line profile, and this should not be interfered
with by CPs/users setting rates, SNR margins etc. at the modem.

Note : The upstream throughput is also constrained on the DSLAM to the upstream
rate requested in the order, i.e. 2Mbit/s, 10Mbit/s or 20Mbit/s, so even if the VDSL2
upstream line speed is higher, the upstream throughput is constrained to the level
ordered for the product.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sun 16-Dec-12 10:25:29
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by billford:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Actually you can't trust Google Maps for measurement. I happened to keep an eye on my car's display today coming back from the golf range and the distance is slightly more than 0.2 of a mile or 300 metres.
I think I'd place considerably more trust in Google maps than an odometer in any car...
i wouldn't. For one thing the car is less than 12 months old.

For another according to Google Earth:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.07791,-1.371...

That driving range is 236.7 yds long.

Now there's a possibility (remote) that they use special balls and have shrunk that range.

So here's another at my club:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q...

Google maps reckons that's only 258 yds edge to edge - 243 yds playable. That's played with real balls by people who know what they are doing. It's going to be in excess of 300 yds playable, prolly 400 yds edge to edge.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Sun 16-Dec-12 10:34:38)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 16-Dec-12 10:36:34
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
yes and interestingly that indicates DLM is more leniant the first day (not more sensitive).

Which makes sense given that on install day the engineer will disconnect it few times on installation without DLM triggering.
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sun 16-Dec-12 10:39:12
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
For one thing the car is less than 12 months old.
So?

I'd prefer a measuring system whose accuracy didn't depend on air temperature and pressure, tyre pressure, make/type, and state of tread wear (all affecting the rolling radius), but each to their own.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 16-Dec-12 10:40:02
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
yes I read the same thing this interferes with sub loop unbundling, I think the arguments in favour are the fact sky, talktalk etc. are not using sub loop unbundling they have instead chose to rent openreach equipment, if all those isp's can be persusaded on the merits of vectoring and agree to it I would hope ofcom can see common sense and not block it.

Also in these SIN documents it suggests the current modems are all currently vectoring compatible so no CPE swap should be required also interestingly it states they SRA compatible as well.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 16-Dec-12 10:44:15
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
yes and interestingly that indicates DLM is more leniant the first day (not more sensitive).

Which makes sense given that on install day the engineer will disconnect it few times on installation without DLM triggering.
I don't think the engineer will be disconnecting it a few times TBH
On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 16-Dec-12 11:56:21
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
of course he did, I watched him he connects a test device first which syncs up, disconnects it, runs some line tests, recconects it, then connects the modem, then after its connected he then power cycled it.

They dont just show up connect the modem and leave.

This did make me wonder how this doesnt affect DLM and the SIN seems to confirm why, that DLM is more leniant on the first day to allow for install routines and I guess the possibility of the end user moving things around as well.

also if you going to quote quote the full statement.

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected.
Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must
intervene

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 16-Dec-12 12:00:13)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 16-Dec-12 12:02:58
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
So that's 4 reconnections? I wonder how many cause DLM to regard the line as severely unstable.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________

Edited by BatBoy (Sun 16-Dec-12 12:03:55)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 16-Dec-12 12:05:43
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
also if you going to quote quote the full statement.

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected.
Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must
intervene
That's not the full statement. Check the full-stops.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 16-Dec-12 13:33:54
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
As with BTW DLM probably not just disconnections taken into account.

The level of these for BT Wholesale have never been released, because they tweak they, in theory to give them scope to cope with large regional sources of interference, e.g. persistent storm in one area

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 16-Dec-12 16:19:47
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
A poster here said "mine resynced 7 times around 1 am now on interleave". So it may be between 5 and 10 resyncs in 24 hours...


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Mon 17-Dec-12 02:03:54
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
yes I read the same thing this interferes with sub loop unbundling, I think the arguments in favour are the fact sky, talktalk etc. are not using sub loop unbundling they have instead chose to rent openreach equipment, if all those isp's can be persusaded on the merits of vectoring and agree to it I would hope ofcom can see common sense and not block it.

The way we are going, with almost all BDUK money going to BT for FTTC coverage, I agree. Common sense, right now, suggests (for FTTC now, and FTTP in future) that we're heading for a single physical infrastructure setup, with virtual competition layered on top.

I can't help but think that we're going to need new definitions for "market N", as the presence of (say) TalkTalk or Sky in future (on existing Market 1 exchanges) may be limited to only having TalkTalk or Sky backhaul, with no physical LLU or ADSL2+ equipment, as exists currently. Same goes for FOX exchanges.

Also in these SIN documents it suggests the current modems are all currently vectoring compatible so no CPE swap should be required also interestingly it states they SRA compatible as well.

Do you have a link for either aspect? I understand how important the CPE equipment is for vectoring - and have seen Alcatel trumpeting that they have a solution that doesn't require a re-roll of CPE equipment.

SRA is also interesting, as it doesn't get much of a write-up (in a practical sense) in DSM techniques, in either the Broadband Forum or in the NICC description of UK networks. Do you have anything that points to real experience?
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Mon 17-Dec-12 02:10:35
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
This did make me wonder how this doesnt affect DLM and the SIN seems to confirm why, that DLM is more leniant on the first day to allow for install routines and I guess the possibility of the end user moving things around as well.

I have to say that this makes perfect sense to me - that DLM would try to ignore the stats for the first (install) day, and try to apply the next day's stats in a "normal" way.

Unless things were really unstable...

I give this a +1.
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Mon 17-Dec-12 02:16:58
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
As with BTW DLM probably not just disconnections taken into account.

The level of these for BT Wholesale have never been released, because they tweak they, in theory to give them scope to cope with large regional sources of interference, e.g. persistent storm in one area


I have some figures that appear to be from BTW, related to 21CN ADSL2+.

That has "red" values for an MTBR of 8640 (1 resync per 2.4 hours, or 10 resync's per day) and an MTBE of 60 (1 CRC per minute, or 1440 per day) - both figures labelled on the "standard" option, rather than the stable or super-stable options.

I have no idea if they're real figures, and even if they are, I have no idea how they apply to VDSL2.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 17-Dec-12 09:43:10
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
This did make me wonder how this doesnt affect DLM and the SIN seems to confirm why, that DLM is more leniant on the first day to allow for install routines and I guess the possibility of the end user moving things around as well.
I have to say that this makes perfect sense to me - that DLM would try to ignore the stats for the first (install) day, and try to apply the next day's stats in a "normal" way.

Unless things were really unstable...

I give this a +1.
It is indeed an interesting reading of the messy English, probably more correct than what I've always thought it meant. Slightly muddied by the condition that it needs to be up for at least 15 minutes on the first day to work this way.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 17-Dec-12 09:43:46
Print Post

Re: Affect of distance on fibre line


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
I have some figures that appear to be from BTW, related to 21CN ADSL2+.

That has "red" values for an MTBR of 8640 (1 resync per 2.4 hours, or 10 resync's per day) and an MTBE of 60 (1 CRC per minute, or 1440 per day) - both figures labelled on the "standard" option, rather than the stable or super-stable options.

I have no idea if they're real figures, and even if they are, I have no idea how they apply to VDSL2.
Great!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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