TalkTalk Say, they need to let BT service there customers

TalkTalk Say, they need to let BT service there customers first,

and if cab reaches capacity 2 MONTHS after its live, its fine as its BTs hardware and they have the right to sell out first!

so says talktalk head office.!


Colleen McGilligan
Manager, Chief Executive's Office
Tel - 0333 003 1163
E-mail: [email protected]
TalkTalk Group / Stanford House / Birchwood / Warrington / WA3 7BH

Are you referring to TalkTalk Business rather than the residential arm of the group?

The group head office is in west London (http://www.talktalkgroup.com/site-services/contact-us.aspx).
The TT Business head office is in Warrington (http://www.talktalkgroup.com/our-businesses/talktalk-business.aspx)

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Dec-12 02:34:19)

TBH, all that I know is Colleen at Head Office said, BT have every right, to give access to there customers first, and that they cant offer service until 2 months after that, even tho cab could reach capacity


Kinda annoyed, feel like such an idiot being a talktalk customer now,

can order today from Sky or BT

I did contact

[email protected]

She passed me onto Colleen, who is the most unhelpful person ever lol


Will keep thread updated to say if i ever get fibre

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Dec-12 02:40:54)

Dido is the CEO of the TT Group.

The information you have been given is incorrect. BT Openreach and BT Wholesale are regulated and have to provide for every retail ISP / telco equally. They cannot favour BT Retail business or customers over other ISPs.

That said - if your cabinet has filled to capacity there is nothing anyone can do about it other than BT Openreach, who need to install additional capacity. Other than that the only option is waiting for people on your cab to cancel their services and those ports be recycled back into availablity for a new order - such availability would be equally be made known and available to all retail ISPs to order against.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

Dido is the CEO of the TT Group.

The information you have been given is incorrect. BT Openreach and BT Wholesale are regulated and have to provide for every retail ISP / telco equally. They cannot favour BT Retail business or customers over other ISPs.

Agreed, so how can I make a complaint about Colleen from TALKTALK making this claim?

or is complaint against TALKTALK as she represents them?

Well the first thing to ascertain is whether there is actually capacity available.

What does this page say about your telephone number? http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome

Post back the results (edit out your actual number of course!)

Email her a link to this thread.

Post deleted by seb

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Dec-12 09:02:04)

In reply to a post by izools:

1. The hardware isn't owned and operated by BT, it's owned and operated by Openreach. BT are a customer of Openreach in the same way TalkTalk are

WRONG.

The equipment is owned by BT and it is operated by BT.

One division of BT is responsible for installation and operation of the equipment.

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

Kinda annoyed, feel like such an idiot being a talktalk customer now,

can order today from Sky or BT

You can also order with Plusnet, they launched their new packages today, £20 a month for truly unlimited 80/20 fibre.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The equipment is owned by BT and it is operated by BT.

One division of BT is responsible for installation and operation of the equipment.

Obviously TalkTalk's email is garbage - that said:

BT Group plc is under legal undertakings with Ofcom in 2005 to separate their business despite common ownership. So Openreach CAN be read to be a separate company - and should there be evidence BT Retail is getting benefits that other Communication Providers are not able to then Ofcom have quite large amount of powers to fine BT group plc - and refer to competition commission or parliament.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 19-Dec-12 11:29:41)

Openreach is NOT a separate company.

Try looking at Companies House for any records of Openreach Ltd or BT Openreach Ltd ...

Whether or not BT Openreach is a separate company from BT Retail and BT Wholesale, they are bound by the rules izools mentions above.

"its BTs hardware and they have the right to sell out first!" is clearly nonsense.
It is possible that the BT companies are operating this way (thought I doubt it); it is clear they don't have the right to operate this way.

Language problems.

Probably meant to say that capacity is available on a first come first served basis, so that Openreach is under no obligation to reserve capacity for any providers, i.e. there is no positive discrimination that goes on.

sounds like tripe to me. I guess talk talk slow to get GEA links up and running?

sky is now available for me.

if I check on talk talk using neighbour address I get.

Unfortunately we cannot complete your Superfast Fibre Broadband order

and

An error has occurred, please try again later.

So not sure if its unavailable or its their site as the checker seems bit buggy.

Language problems: Good point. If they all have an equal right to sell, but TalkTalk get themselves into a position where they can't sell, that just means it's all sold out before TalkTalk get their act together.

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

Whether or not BT Openreach is a separate company from BT Retail and BT Wholesale, they are bound by the rules izools mentions above.

"its BTs hardware and they have the right to sell out first!" is clearly nonsense.
It is possible that the BT companies are operating this way (thought I doubt it); it is clear they don't have the right to operate this way.

It would not be a surprise to be honest.

I would consider just dropping them, but i just paid 1 years VLR upfront,

I have made a request for a copy of the call transcript from Colleen will update thread once I get it.

thanks for replies guys,

Doesn't it say January for your exchange on TalkTalk's checker?

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by izools:

1. The hardware isn't owned and operated by BT, it's owned and operated by Openreach. BT are a customer of Openreach in the same way TalkTalk are

WRONG.

The equipment is owned by BT and it is operated by BT.

One division of BT is responsible for installation and operation of the equipment.

FTTC equipment is owned and operated by Openreach. One of Openreach's customers is BT Wholesale.

The EOI rules introduced in 2006 require that BT Wholesale treat all of their customers including BT Retail as equals.

In much the same way Openreach are required to treat all of their customers including TalkTalk and BT Wholesale as equals.

OFCOM forced this six years ago.

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Dec-12 19:02:38)

Can you not understand.

The equipment is owned by BT - or to be totally exact British Telecommunications Public Limited Company and it appears on their asset register.

MHC: I think it is you who doesn't understand. Yes, the equipment is owned by a BT company, but they are not legally allowed to take advantage of that to give priority to BT Retail over other ISPs.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Can you not understand.

The equipment is owned by BT - or to be totally exact British Telecommunications Public Limited Company and it appears on their asset register.

BT PLC is a group of companies -

BT Retail
BT Wholesale
BT Openreach
BT Health
BT Spine
BT Global Services
/etc

Throughout my career I have worked alongside all of the above. I started my career in the ISP industry and worked alongside BT Wholesale and saw the creation of BT Openreach around six to seven years ago along side the implementation of the EOI rules implemented by Ofcom.

I more recently and to date work in healthcare (public sector) and work closely with BT Health and BT Spine day to day.

Each arm operates as a standalone organization. Especially the Spine / Health arms of BT, they are so far apart from Wholesale / Openreach / Retail one would scarcely believe they all carry the same registered company number.

The openreach arm of BT owns the FTTC equiptment. Openreach treat BT Wholesale the same as they do, for example, Sky, who are a GEA customer.

BT Wholesale who run a wholesale network in the same way TalkTalk do, in turn treat their customers e.g. BT Retail, ENTA Net, IDNet, etc, the same.

No one in the chain is given preference over the other nor are there any set of rules that only apply to one BT customer and not the other wholesale customers.

The delay OP is experiencing is not down to the fact that Openreach own the equipment, but because of the business model TalkTalk have chosen to employ.

TalkTalk could have just as easily employed a business model that has the GEA handover link ready and in situ prior to a given exchange going live for FTTC so that TalkTalk customer's don't have to wait longer than for example Sky customers (who also use GEA) or BT Wholesale customers.

The letter Talk Talk sent OP is so riddled with absolute b**locks I can scarcely believe it made it into an envelope but clearly no one at TT wants to admit that it is their business model and commercial decisions that lead to the delays and nothing more.

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Dec-12 23:51:42)

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

MHC: I think it is you who doesn't understand. Yes, the equipment is owned by a BT company,

No, It is owned by BT. Openreach is NOT a company it is an operating division or line of business

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

but they are not legally allowed to take advantage of that to give priority to BT Retail over other ISPs.

Where have I suggested anything different to that?

What a load of rubbish ...

To take the words from the BT website:

Group businesses

BT has four customer facing lines of business: BT Retail, BT Global Services, BT Wholesale and Openreach. These are supported by two internal service units, BT Innovate & Design and BT Operate. See below for more information about the different businesses in the BT group.

Openreach is NOT a seperate company, but as the BT website states a "Line of Business" and internally referred to as a division.


Also from the BT website:

BT is investing £2.5bn to roll-out fibre broadband to around two-thirds of homes and businesses in the UK. This will be completed during Spring 2014.

Dubbed the �Big Build�, the work is being carried out by Openreach - BT's local network division - on behalf of all communications providers.

Can you see where it says "BT is investing" not Openreach and further on "Openreach - BT's local Network Division"


And can you point to where I have queried the EOI rules or the way other ISPs are treated? I very much doubt it.

All of which is true, but a complete distraction from the essentials of the way the system operates.

The post you originally objected to was perfectly clear as to the important factors at issue here. If we have to write a 20-line explanation of the relationship between the different BT companies and divisions every time we wish to point out the effect of EOI, and in particular why the TalkTalk spiel in question is utter balderdash, nobody wil have a clue what we are on about even if they bother to read it all.

Why not just stick the big wooden spoon in where it matters for correct understanding of the issues? Here it was obvious.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

All of which is true, but a complete distraction from the essentials of the way the system operates.

The post you originally objected to was perfectly clear as to the important factors at issue here. If we have to write a 20-line explanation of the relationship between the different BT companies and divisions every time we wish to point out the effect of EOI, and in particular why the TalkTalk spiel in question is utter balderdash, nobody wil have a clue what we are on about even if they bother to read it all.

Why not just stick the big wooden spoon in where it matters for correct understanding of the issues? Here it was obvious.

Thank you.

Round my way Talk Talk started offering fibre 6 months after BT and Sky.

Post deleted by Sadoldman

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by simon194:

Round my way Talk Talk started offering fibre 6 months after BT and Sky.

All this bulls**t about it being BT Retail getting precedence over other providers is tantamount to slander IMHO.

I can assure you

"TBH, all that I know is Colleen at Head Office said, BT have every right, to give access to there customers first, and that they cant offer service until 2 months after that, even tho cab could reach capacity"

Once I get a copy of the call transcript I will prove it.

Nobody is saying that she didn't say that to you .

Everybody is saying it is completely untrue. My guess would be that she believes it to be true, in which case it isn't her fault. TalkTalk are responsible for everything she says.

well BT infinity was available before my exchange was set to "AO" , before even other BTw isp's.

Sky it seems tho did enable my area very quickly after the exchange went "AO".

I suspect the BT infinity checker is directly hooked up to the BTw cabinet checker and ignores exchange status, whilst other isps require the exchange to also be set to "AO".

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

TalkTalk Say, they need to let BT service there customers first,

and if cab reaches capacity 2 MONTHS after its live, its fine as its BTs hardware and they have the right to sell out first!

so says talktalk head office.!


Colleen McGilligan
Manager, Chief Executive's Office
Tel - 0333 003 1163
E-mail: [email protected]
TalkTalk Group / Stanford House / Birchwood / Warrington / WA3 7BH

Given Openreach, when they receive an order, don't actually know which ISP they are installing for that'd be quite impressive going preferring their own ISP to any other.

Openreach take orders from an automated system and provisioning is automated. For normal ADSL they have no idea who is taking the service as they see everything, including BT Wholesale, as LLU.

For FTTC they'll be aware of which operator they are delivering to, BT Wholesale, Sky or TalkTalk right now, they need this information to know which VLAN to put the traffic into, but beyond that they have no idea whether the BT Wholesale ISP is BT Retail, Plusnet, Andrews and Arnold, whoever.

TalkTalk haven't ordered the necessary link to get connected to your FTTC cabinet. I wouldn't be surprised if Sky can provide service but in TalkTalk's case they can be late to the party while they increase backhaul or get more ports available on their network equipment in the exchange or whatever. Sky did the backhaul upgrades pre-emptively and have at least 24 switch ports in each exchange with another switch added as part of a stack when the first one gets nearly full so not such an issue for them.

What she said is kinda true though, if the line cards and/or tie pairs in your cabinet get full before they've enabled your exchange you have to wait for Openreach to add more capacity.

All this said TalkTalk have January as the go-live date for the exchange and there's absolutely nothing that compels them to offer fibre on the exchange at all, let alone to have it available the day that Openreach enable it.

Either way you putting her contact details on a public forum was vindictive and unnecessary. That a quick Google search doesn't offer any matches apart from this thread implies it's not supposed to be public and she or that office will probably have to change their phone number now.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

well BT infinity was available before my exchange was set to "AO" , before even other BTw isp's.

Sky it seems tho did enable my area very quickly after the exchange went "AO".

I suspect the BT infinity checker is directly hooked up to the BTw cabinet checker and ignores exchange status, whilst other isps require the exchange to also be set to "AO".

They all have access to the same checker. If your order was somehow expedited it's possible that BT Retail made a couple of calls to wholesale to check things out but as far as availability checkers go they all use the same one and it couldn't care less whether or not Openreach have updated their website - which is all that 'AO' status is.

The checkers go by cabinet only, there is no exchange checker. The only flags that matter are whether or not the cabinet is live. If it's connected to an exchange that hasn't been enabled yet obviously the answer to that is a no even if the cabinet is powered up and has backhaul.

AO is cosmetic, nothing else. Openreach make SPs aware of the requirements for each exchange's handovers in advance, they have to so that the SPs know how many Cablelinks they need to fully cover all cabinets on the handover as there are multiple switches in some exchanges so multiple Cablelinks required.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Openreach is NOT a separate company.

Try looking at Companies House for any records of Openreach Ltd or BT Openreach Ltd ...

Agreed, there is only one legal entity. (BT group plc) but they can be "read" to be separate due to the legal undertakings they've made to Ofcom.

If that was happening OFCOM would be involved as BT cannot discriminate against any customer

"TBH, all that I know is Colleen at Head Office said, BT have every right, to give access to there customers first, and that they cant offer service until 2 months after that, even tho cab could reach capacity"

As Roberto said earlier, it may be a matter of language. It is quite possible that Colleen wasn't blaming BT at all; just telling you the truth about how TalkTalk messed up their own patch.

they cant offer service until 2 months after that Not necessarily, BT won't let us offer service. Maybe, we (TalkTalk) didn't get our act together to buy ongoing bandwidth in time, so we can't offer service.

BT have every right, to give access to there customers first 'first'. BT Retail have every right to offer the service when it becomes available to them. They don't have to deny a BT Retail service to some customers now, just because if the cabinet gets full it would preempt TalkTalk coming along later and providing an alternative service.

If you go back to the original post which was correct in that TT stated te equipment was owned by BT - I corrected the totally incorrect and false statement that said it was not. It was that same person who, even though they were wrong who started to argue.

If you apply common sense to the whole of that post, including the context generated by the quote from TT that it contains, it is perfectly obvious that "BT" there is referring to BT Retail, not BT Group.

Apart from which, if you wish to continue a silly semantic argument, construing "BT" in that context as meaning BT Group, which you are trying to do, is impossible. TalkTalk are a customer of BT Group.

If you can get confirmation of that from them as an email or letter refer it to OFCOM as BT will be in serious trouble if they are doing that

The statement I corrected was not in that post but the second which said: "The hardware isn't owned and operated by BT, it's owned and operated by Openreach."

Which is wrong.

DEpends how they do their accounting but I would expect that due to the regulatory environment it would be down as a BT ~OPenreach assett and shown in the accounts as such. Ultimatly of course the BT Group Company own everything although there are I belive a few sperate BT owned companies such as DABS that are com,panes and have a seperate company number & P&L

A couple of ++ does not hide the intended word....which is not allowed.

THe Equipment will not be owned by BT Group. eEpending on what kit you are referring to it will be owned by BT Openreach or BT Wholesale

You clear do not understand the BT Group set up. Actuall equipment will be owned by BT Openreach or BT Wholesale and that is how it will appear in the BT Group Accounts. Irt has to as the business units have to operate at arms length.

You clearly do not understand how BT is structured.

No one is saying Openreach or BT Wholsale are seperate companies. They do however have to account for assetts & costs seperatly and that is how they will appear in the BT Group Accounts

Most Group companies have a similar structure. THey will have several business units which have their own internal costs & assetts which will be shown seperatly in the Groups accounts. If you dont do that you do not know if the business units are profitable or not . In BT's case there is also a regulatory requirement

BT do actualy have a few seperate companies which I think are soley owned by BT Group. DAB's is one I can think of off the top of my head

In reply to a post by MHC:

The statement I corrected was not in that post but the second which said: "The hardware isn't owned and operated by BT, it's owned and operated by Openreach."

Which is wrong.

Well, not really.

The hardware isn't operated by BT Group.

It's operated by the Openreach arm of BT Group.

Semantics and splitting hairs that has lead to absolute obfuscation of the issue at hand and no doubt utter confusion from the many readers that would have otherwise understood the perfectly simple and valid point that I made.

Good work.

You know, becoming fixated on one single miniscule point and ignoring the bigger picture, the task at hand as it were, may be suggestive that you suffer from some kind of learning disability, perhaps Autism? I used to have the same difficulty with my Autism as a teenager but my cognitive therapy sorted that out beautifully before I hit adulthood. Perhaps you could consider the same sort of therapy? I ended up much less frustrated with the world afterwards, perhaps you could, too?

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 14:34:13)

ok thanks, I guess the answer to other BTw isp's saying no then was probably them using an old cached database.

Although my order was expidited the original acceptance which I did on the website obviously required the computer to say yes.

Absolute BS. I ordered FTTC from sky 2 weeks before BT had it available and had it installed just as BT started offering it. As others have said it's down to whether the providers using GEA have their backbone to the exchange in place in time/already.

Oh well

had enough,

Just signed up with plusnet, have installation date 31dec

wish me luck lol will probably need it (facepalm)

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 21:07:20)

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

Oh well

had enough,

Just signed up with plusnet, have installation date 31dec

wish me luck lol will probably need it (facepalm)

Wow!

That is an extremely short wait - I genuinely wish you well. But ... you could be in trouble on New Year's Day , you'll be ignoring everyone around you!

Fibre Unlimited? Home Phone as well, or not?

yeah fibre and phone, just got email confirmation:

We'll arrange for your fibre broadband and phone services to be switched to us on one of the dates you've chosen:

2012/12/31 AM
2012/12/31 PM
2013/01/01 AM

just hope they show lol

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 21:21:01)

Offering FTTC installs on New Years Day?

Odd in the extreme!

In reply to a post by greenglide:

Offering FTTC installs on New Years Day?

Odd in the extreme!

I agree, but you need to select from plusnet calender dates,

maybe there is a plusnet rep on here who could keep an eye on it ?


just logged into plusnet account,

my order status:

Your Plusnet Fibre broadband order
We'll arrange for your fibre broadband service to be installed. This will happen on one of the dates you've chosen:
31/12/2012 AM
31/12/2012 PM
01/01/2013 AM
If your preferred appointment date isn't available , we'll call you within a week to make alternative arrangements.

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 21:26:38)

Sounds a bit unbelievable, but they must be Openreach working days or they wouldn't be offered.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Sounds a bit unbelievable, but they must be Openreach working days or they wouldn't be offered.

Like the rest of Dec was blanked out first day I could choose was 31st dec,


Just hope I am not in for another headache

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 21:42:48)

In reply to a post by greenglide:

Offering FTTC installs on New Years Day?

And why not? Maybe if it's one of these "15 minutes crash course" engineers, it works best while still hungover.

not that unbelievable business is business and openreach have demand to fill.

I have had to work new years eve/day numerous times in the past.

In reply to a post by greenglide:

Offering FTTC installs on New Years Day?

Odd in the extreme!

Ha, I'm working 11PM Christmas Day > 7AM Boxing day then again on Boxing day 3PM > 11PM.

Oh, and 7AM > 3PM New Years Day.

But then I do work in Healthcare. A tad more important than residential FTTC installs lol.

Somehow I doubt however that Openreach would provide such good monetary incentives as one gets in my line of work

Edited by deleted (Thu 20-Dec-12 23:47:31)

I never thought this thread would go sensible again after the 'company' debate. I had to double-check to make sure it was the same thread.

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

I never thought this thread would go sensible again after the 'company' debate. I had to double-check to make sure it was the same thread.

This thread was ever sensible?

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

yeah fibre and phone, just got email confirmation:

We'll arrange for your fibre broadband and phone services to be switched to us on one of the dates you've chosen:

2012/12/31 AM
2012/12/31 PM
2013/01/01 AM

just hope they show lol

My mate got his plusnet FTTc installed yesterday, no phone just fibre. everything went ok until he phoned me up asking me how to change the key for wireless on the router and then for some reason he kept getting disconnected.

i told him the best thing is to get in touch with plusnet to see why he was gettign disconnected.
i saw a message on facebook from him about waiting for it to sort itself out, Bt profiling again I expect, but I did not realise it would disconnect the way it was.

I must admit, I don't miss BT profiling.

Plusnet failed I guess,

I signed up paid the fee wasn't convinced on dates either so called to confirm,

Was told is was a system error and those dates were no good if i left it as was would have been more annoyed if dates came and went, any way they went on to say best date was jan 15th, this was back in Dec.

so I cancelled dont mind paying more money for service, but the installation dates provided should at least be solid.

Also I have paid talktalk line rental up front so would be paying 2x.


Talktalk still using std line estimated date available end Jan and that this could change..

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

Talktalk still using std line estimated date available end Jan and that this could change..

Just as at Plusnet then .

All ISPs are utterly and completely at the mercy of Openreach's scheduling. Nothing any of them can do, other than pay for an expedited install. (If that's available on phone lines, not just broadband).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

Talktalk still using std line estimated date available end Jan and that this could change..

Just as at Plusnet then .

No at least at Plusnet I can actually order fibre, talktalk still aren't linked into fibre racks yet (facepalm)

Ah, I got mixed up. I got the impression that as a result of this you had cancelled the Plusnet and ordered from TT.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Ah, I got mixed up. I got the impression that as a result of this you had cancelled the Plusnet and ordered from TT.

will hold out until the 10th jan, then re-order from plusnet fml lol

just such a sore head, will need to get Value line rental back from talktalk, only want to order fibre

Pass. I haven't a clue what you are telling us is going on.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Pass. I haven't a clue what you are telling us is going on.

I still cannot order fibre from TALKTALK.

I have been told of a date 31st Jan is a date, that I may or may not be able to order fibre from TALKTALK, date is subject to change lololol

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Jan-13 00:22:07)

Full stops would help transmitting your messages.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Full stops would help transmitting your messages.

oh really?

>.<

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Jan-13 00:39:09)

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Pass. I haven't a clue what you are telling us is going on.

I still cannot order fibre from TALKTALK.

I have been told of a date 31st Jan is a date, that I may or may not be able to order fibre from TALKTALK, date is subject to change lololol

And it probabaly will change. Last year round my way TT estimated June, then July, then August, then Register Interest. Finally it was available in December a full 7 months after fibre went live.