Openreach Trialling PCP-Only FTTC Install

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thing is they would also presumably also have to send out a vdsl faceplate too,It probably won't save the customer any money though, so for most would be pointless may as well have Openreach come to the house and fit the vdsl faceplate and test the line for sync ect , than possibly end up for days /weeks without service whilst you wait for an engineer

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thing is they would also presumably also have to send out a vdsl faceplate too,It probably won't save the customer any money though, so for most would be pointless may as well have Openreach come to the house and fit the vdsl faceplate and test the line for sync ect , than possibly end up for days /weeks without service whilst you wait for an engineer

Yathink?

Not likely. It'll just go to awful dangly microfilters and dodgy end user phone wiring.

When ADSL first hit in 1999/2000 it was an engineer-only installation and BT (no Openreach then!) wouldn't provision ADSL without an engineer attending and upgrading the customer to an NTE5 master socket with filtered faceplate and optional data extension.

When they switched to wires-only the faults reported increased exponentially.

Same thing will happen to FTTC / VDSL. BT Group have had the publicity they wanted / needed to get everyone on board, now it's just a matter of cutting costs and milking the cash cow and to hell with the reliability and attainable throughput of the service.

Edited by izools (Sun 30-Dec-12 07:53:14)

I assume switching to wires only installs will mean that installation lead times will come down substantially.

While I am sure that the engineer/managed install option will remain available, 'Wires only' will also have a lower installation charge for ISPs - and thus potentially lower charges for end customers (or some ISPs moving from 18-->12 month contracts)

More interesting in many ways is the second part of the trial where Openreach "[will..] allow CPs to begin to take over responsibility of the VDSL modem component by introducing their VDSL capable devices to replace the Openreach modem."

Regards
Sunil

Edited by gt94sss2 (Sun 30-Dec-12 08:14:17)

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

I assume switching to wires only installs will mean that installation lead times will come down substantially.

While I am sure that the engineer/managed install option will remain available, 'Wires only' will also have a lower installation charge for ISPs - and thus potentially lower charges for end customers (or some ISPs moving from 18-->12 month contracts)

More interesting in many ways is the second part of the trial where Openreach "[will..] allow CPs to begin to take over responsibility of the VDSL modem component by introducing their VDSL capable devices to replace the Openreach modem."

Regards
Sunil

Absolutely, it should bring down lead times considerably and will be a welcome change for those of us who are technically minded.

Unfortunately just like wires-only ADSL, this will introduce a wealth of problems with those amongst us who aren't so technically minded, not understanding the effect of RFI or poor quality microfilters on the line, and of course VDSL2 is much more sensitive to such things than ADSL.

It would be good to see what VDSL hardware ISPs will start to introduce but TBH I prefer the option of being able to choose my own Ethernet router without having to ensure it has a VDSL modem built in

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thing is they would also presumably also have to send out a vdsl faceplate too,It probably won't save the customer any money though, so for most would be pointless may as well have Openreach come to the house and fit the vdsl faceplate and test the line for sync ect , than possibly end up for days /weeks without service whilst you wait for an engineer

Yathink?

Not likely. It'll just go to awful dangly micro filters and dodgy end user phone wiring.

When ADSL first hit in 1999/2000 it was an engineer-only installation and BT (no Openreach then!) wouldn't provision ADSL without an engineer attending and upgrading the customer to an NTE5 master socket with filtered faceplate and optional data extension.

When they switched to wires-only the faults reported increased exponentially.

Same thing will happen to FTTC / VDSL. BT Group have had the publicity they wanted / needed to get everyone on board, now it's just a matter of cutting costs and milking the cash cow and to hell with the reliability and attainable throughput of the service.

Agree. Some time ago on this site there was information that Openreach were trailing installs using BT micro filters (in Glasgow I think) so its clear which way the wind is blowing

News item 5213. 8 May 2012.

Edited by systemx (Sun 30-Dec-12 09:50:42)

what is there sold in the uk apart from the fritzbox?

It doesn't have to be a combined modem and router.

Have a Google for "vdsl modem", plenty of them around.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

what is there sold in the uk apart from the fritzbox?

There appear to be a few now:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&tbm=shop&q=vds...

What will the end user gain?

It will not change lead times by very much.

The actual total install time will fall by maybe 5 or 10 minutes from an hour or 90 minutes. Add up: travel to the customer/cabinet location, change jumpers in cabinets &c, return to base. Also include a possible 1 in 10 return visit because there is an error - it might be the Tech's fault but there is still a cost to BT which was not there before.

There will be a small change in installation charges - but not much.

Faults will increase enormously as will reports of low speed attributable to the end user.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thing is they would also presumably also have to send out a vdsl faceplate too,It probably won't save the customer any money though, so for most would be pointless may as well have Openreach come to the house and fit the vdsl faceplate and test the line for sync ect , than possibly end up for days /weeks without service whilst you wait for an engineer

For a new, as in first time, VDSL provision wouldn't there still be a home visit to test the line is OK just like first time ADSL provisions.

What will the end user gain?

Save them half a day off work or whatever to coordinate with an engineer visit.

I wasn't clear what "testing for sync on the end user side" meant - does the end user's modem have to be in place first, or do Openreach just make sure the DSLAM port and wiring links works at the cab ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

What will the end user gain?

Save them half a day off work or whatever to coordinate with an engineer visit.

I wasn't clear what "testing for sync on the end user side" meant - does the end user's modem have to be in place first, or do Openreach just make sure the DSLAM port and wiring links works at the cab ?

I presume Phil that Openreach connect a modem at the PCP once they've done the jumpering to ensure sync is there.

A modem on the 'new' D side of PCP once jumpered would confirm everything is as it should be at the PCP.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Sun 30-Dec-12 11:23:59)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

A modem on the 'new' D side of PCP once jumpered would confirm everything is as it should be at the PCP.

True, but if there's anything adrift between the PCP and the NTE it'll have to be picked up as a fault requiring a return visit, and that's probably the weakest link.

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thing is they would also presumably also have to send out a vdsl faceplate too,It probably won't save the customer any money though, so for most would be pointless may as well have Openreach come to the house and fit the vdsl faceplate and test the line for sync ect , than possibly end up for days /weeks without service whilst you wait for an engineer

For a new, as in first time, VDSL provision wouldn't there still be a home visit to test the line is OK just like first time ADSL provisions.

There is no longer such a visit for first time ADSL provisions. When openreach jumper a PSTN line to an ADSL port on the provider's equiptment in the exchange, there is no test for sync either.

I don't see Openreach treating VDSL any differently.

Edited by izools (Sun 30-Dec-12 12:34:16)

Opens up the ability to bulk provide at a cab , that is do multiple connections in one visit and means other openreach resources can do connections as additional work, where they currently are not in a position to do managed installs . With no appointment required , there is far greater flexibility , which makes scheduling easier, all in all would be very useful in the current climate!

If this leads to Isp offering short term contracts and an end to 18/24 mth contracts sooner than it would of done, then at least something good will have come from it, for the average customer

In reply to a post by izools:

There is no longer such a visit for first time ADSL provisions. When openreach jumper a PSTN line to an ADSL port on the provider's equiptment in the exchange, there is no test for sync either.

I don't see Openreach treating VDSL any differently.

Mind you it was 6 years ago since I last had a new line provisioned for ADSL.

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by izools:

There is no longer such a visit for first time ADSL provisions. When openreach jumper a PSTN line to an ADSL port on the provider's equiptment in the exchange, there is no test for sync either.

I don't see Openreach treating VDSL any differently.

Mind you it was 6 years ago since I last had a new line provisioned for ADSL.

All too aware of that unfortunately, I was left without ADSL and Phone for several days ,due to the engineer botching an ADSL LLU migration, Had it been routine procedure/good working practice to do some tests,checks then , he would of known that he had connected up to a dead e'side pair, the openreach line plant data base didn't have current info of which e'side pair was in use , so failings to get very basic everyday stuff right @ openreach seem the order of the day, @ this was more recently , so nothing has changed there

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 30-Dec-12 17:26:22)

ADSL installs are done without a BT visit and 99% plus work ok first time. THere is as you say no real need for a BT visit. It should cut costs and install times considerably. Currently the home vist for FTTC installs is becoming a major problem for BT and is the biggest bottleneck in the system. I would asume BT would still offer a full install including a home visit for those that want one

Interesting, but it's Q1-2013 before it starts as a trial, apparently with a fairly high fee for an ISP to join the trial. It's also worth noting that a normal FTTC or FTTP GEA connection charge rises on 1 April 2013 from £80 to £92, both plus Vat.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Just for the bored I noted that Openreach will shortly be trialling FTTC installs where the engineer attends the cabinet only, leaving the ISP to take care of sending out a modem and the customer installing it.

FTTC goes wires only!

Thank god I got mine sorted before that. Got a nice new BT openreach installed extension for free. There are going to be a lot of disappointed punters out there who upgrade from their slow adsl to slow fibre, because the source of their problem is the internal wiring.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

I would asume BT would still offer a full install including a home visit for those that want one

PCP-Only Indicative Launch Pricing
To assist CPs with their business cases for the introduction of PCP-Only and/or engineer install of a CP's VDSL-capable device, we are pleased to indicate the following indicative launch connection price ranges:

PCP-Only Indicative Launch Price Range
£40 to £50

Managed Install without Openreach modem Indicative Launch Price Range
£95 to £100

Plus Vat of course.

Yes but that is offset against other price cuts such as reduced line rental

I suspect that as with ADSL those that have very long lines may be required to have a BT home visit

It will mean the openreach modem will get installed in that extension socket where the current broadband is installed which drops out constantly due to internal wiring problems...

I don't see this actually giving anybody a better service in the end. It might make things cheaper / quicker install times.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Yes but that is offset against other price cuts such as reduced line rental

4ppm if passed onto the end user? I doubt if that will help us.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

It will mean the openreach modem will get installed in that extension socket where the current broadband is installed which drops out constantly due to internal wiring problems...

I don't see this actually giving anybody a better service in the end. It might make things cheaper / quicker install times.

But won't we have fun sorting them out !

I did that last week, I couldnt find a single vdsl modem sold in the uk apart from openreach ones on ebay or the friztbox.

zyxel seems lead contender as cheapest.

on openreach side it will change a lot.

I am registered on a site with openreach engineers and they are saying job time will fall from 1-2 hours to 10 minutes.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I did that last week, I couldnt find a single vdsl modem sold in the uk apart from openreach ones on ebay or the friztbox.

Should've gone to SpecSavers :

Billion BiPAC 8200M

ZyXEL P-871M

edit to add:

And if you don't mind it not being in a pretty box:

NETGEAR VDSL/ADSL2+ Module (Annex A)

Couldn't quickly find any halfway detailed description/spec so it may not be particularly useful.

Edited by billford (Sun 30-Dec-12 20:28:45)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I am registered on a site with openreach engineers and they are saying job time will fall from 1-2 hours to 10 minutes.

That seems extremely unlikely.

Re-jumpering at the PCP and testing will take most of that. Then there is the travel time to the PCP, shared between the number of connections being made on the same visit, plus someone presumably has to alter the jumpering at the exchange as the copper will be unnecessarily connected to a DSLAM, (bearing in mind the fibre is often to a different exchange), and certainly if it is a move from LLU to BTW-based, and so on and so on ....

Anyway, nearly all the installs I've heard about, including my own, seemed to take around 30 minutes at the premises.

Not sure what the charge out costs is but it has to be in the region of £50 an hour. THe biiger benefit though is the actual time saving as BT seem to have a big resourse problem. It will mean the Engineers will be able to do a lot more installs and possibl som of the cost saving may be passed on

they routers not standalone modems

they said the rejumpering is a 10 minute job, the bulk of the time on current installs is at end user premises. My guy was here at least an hour.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 30-Dec-12 22:44:39)

yep, this will go a long way to tackling the current installs situation.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

they routers not standalone modems

Wrong way round... read my comment re SpecSavers.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

they routers not standalone modems

The devices Openreach hand out are VDSL routers, just like those, but in modem mode.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

The devices Openreach hand out are VDSL routers, just like those, but in modem mode.

But only two ethernet ports and no wireless. As used by BatBoy, and I think a couple have copied his setup.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But only two ethernet ports and no wireless. As used by BatBoy, and I think a couple have copied his setup.

Wasn't advocating them for any purpose nor discussing their capabilities, Bob, beyond merely pointing out that the pieces of kit Openreach provide are routers.

Yes, I know . I'm not trying to shoot you down, but I thought it worthwhile to point out the deficiencies in case anyone thought of trying it.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

they routers not standalone modems

The Billion BiPAC 8200M is a modem, the VDSL2 router is the BiPAC 8200N.

BT Openreach send an engineer out to fit this VDSL face plate for Fibre Broadband, well no wonder Fibre Broadband connection charges are so high £50 a time. The sooner they send it in the post with the Fibre Broadband Modem the better, I say!

Won't Openreach make a lot of money having CP's pay them to have an engineer come fix the punters cock ups !

Rumour has it that exchange jumpering staff will be going to the cabs to do the FTTC jumpering. (That'll be a shock for many of them !)

plus someone presumably has to alter the jumpering at the exchange as the copper will be unnecessarily connected to a DSLAM,

Nah. Stay's until required for someone else, ie new donor for a lift and shift. My old 8128 sync was still present on my line nearly two years later when my FTTC service was ceased and returned to PSTN.

Anyway, nearly all the installs I've heard about, including my own, seemed to take around 30 minutes at the premises

Sadly often not true either Bob.

A modem on the 'new' D side of PCP once jumpered would confirm everything is as it should be at the PCP.

The FTTC sync comes 'out' on the E-side pair, if you want to be pedantic.

yeah so I searched for the wrong thing

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

A modem on the 'new' D side of PCP once jumpered would confirm everything is as it should be at the PCP.

The FTTC sync comes 'out' on the E-side pair, if you want to be pedantic.

Good to know, thanks

EDIT: That said doesn't the cross connect between E and D-side take its toll on sync a bit? Any particular reason why sticking it inline between E and D couldn't be done? Presume so but not familiar enough with the minutae of the Openreach network.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Mon 31-Dec-12 21:46:23)

In reply to a post by E7er:

BT Openreach send an engineer out to fit this VDSL face plate for Fibre Broadband, well no wonder Fibre Broadband connection charges are so high £50 a time. The sooner they send it in the post with the Fibre Broadband Modem the better, I say!

Fat chance.

They'll just leave it up to the CP to send the end user microfilters

Dial tone on the PSTN E side pair is jumpered to the FTTC 'in' pair, which for cab lay out reasons, and I suspect ease of understanding, is a D-side termination. Off to the DSLAM and reappears on the FTTC 'out' pair, which is an E-side. Then connected to the PSTN D-side and off the the punter.

The frames in the main exchanges work in a similar fashion, with the two sides of the frame being designated E and D. Exchange and distribution.