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Standard User Timalay
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 16:53:37
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Openreach modem question


[link to this post]
 
Just a small question about the Openreach modem supplied with FTTC connections. Is yours to keep after a set while, or say if cancelled after your fibre contract was up would you have to give it back?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 17:01:29
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
Depends on the ISP. With BT Infinity, it's yours to keep.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Timalay
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 17:02:51
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet

Edited by Timalay (Sat 05-Jan-13 19:01:04)


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Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 17:07:43
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
Depends on the ISP. With BT Infinity, it's yours to keep.
That hasn't been my understanding- Infinity is sold by BT Retail and the modem is supplied by BT Openreach, whoever the ISP happens to be.

But my understanding could be wrong- do you have a link?

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6

Edited by billford (Sat 05-Jan-13 17:15:00)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 17:20:10
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
I asked Openreach and that was the answer I got. I had to ask because there was no other way of getting a definitive answer after I had searched and searched.

edited to clarify.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________

Edited by BatBoy (Sat 05-Jan-13 17:23:57)

Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 17:22:00
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Hmm, interesting... cheers.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User lockyatlrg
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 05-Jan-13 18:14:27
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
When I asked about this when I was going to move house, BT told me to leave it installed (wall mounted) and they would install a new one at the new house, but I was told to take the HH3 which I don't use anyway.

BT Infinity
ROUTER:-Netgear WNDR37AV
JDSU Stats
Attainable 94040D 34659U
Sync 79999D 20000U
Attenuation: 10.1 SNR: 16.2
Line Length 300meters
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 18:15:55
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
The modem remains property of BT.

The service we agree to give you includes:

1. a high-speed fibre broadband service. Your speed will be estimated at the time of placing the order and will be the fastest speed your line can support. For further information please go to www.bt.com/help/infinityspeed.
helpdesk services;
other applications and features as described at www.bt.com/infinity ; and
installation of network equipment required to enable you to use the service.


2. The equipment we agree to give you includes a:

BT Infinity Home Hub; and
Data Extension Kit (required only if there is no double power socket near your telephone master socket). If required, the engineer will ask for your agreement to install during his installation visit.


It does not include BT giving you a modem. They provide a service and equipment to enable you to use the service.


The Business Ts & Cs are more specific:

1.4 For any equipment supplied under the Contract:
(a) risk passes and acceptance takes place at the time of delivery;
(b) title in equipment passes to the Customer on payment of the charges as detailed in the Charges Schedule at which point the equipment becomes Customer Equipment, however title in any equipment supplied without charge remains with BT as BT Equipment;


That is fairly specific and there will be a similar document on the residential side.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Timalay
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 18:59:31
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: lockyatlrg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lockyatlrg:
When I asked about this when I was going to move house, BT told me to leave it installed (wall mounted) and they would install a new one at the new house, but I was told to take the HH3 which I don't use anyway.


Mine isn't wall mounted. It's sitting under my router.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 19:15:11
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
There's no such document on the BT Infinity Residential side. This is all there is
Your new equipment

You'll need two pieces of equipment. You'll get your new BT Home Hub two days before your installation date and your engineer will bring your BT Infinity modem and install both for you.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Sat 05-Jan-13 19:40:05
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
If you can easily wall-mount the modem, do. That gives better ventilation, and reduces risk of interference between modem and HomeHub.

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User Timalay
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 20:31:13
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
I don't have a homehub, I'm with plusnet, and it was the openreach engineer that put it like that.
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 21:12:50
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
The FTTC modem is BT network equipment - it's the Network Terminating Equipment for your FTTC service, with the presentation of that service being the Ethernet port on the modem. As such, it remains BT Openreach property, as with all NTE.

The situation will only change if 'wires only' FTTC service is launched. The ownership of any equipment supplied as part of a 'wires only' service would be down to the contractual arrangements between you and your ISP.


In practice, I expect that BT Openreach lose a lot of these modems, and as they will buy them in bulk for relatively little, they won't much care about losing a modem from a ceased service. I suppose that the ideal for BT is if the modem is left in place when service is ceased, so another modem is not required if service is resumed on that line.

However, I expect that the costs of collecting up modems from those who have ceased FTTC service, testing them and issuing them to engineers for reuse is uneconomic compared to the costs of buying another new modem. I suspect one fault call due to a recycled modem would be more expensive than the costs of several new modems.


As all the logoed modems are BT property, I would argue that buying one from eBay could be construed as handling stolen goods contrary to s. 22(1) Theft Act 1968 - "A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of stealing), knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods...". This would be difficult to prove, as many would not know or believe the modems to be BT Openreach property (after all, Home Hubs become subscriber property, and most will not know the difference between BT Retail and BT Openreach). Dishonesty would also be difficult to prove, as the R v Ghosh test requires:

* dishonesty according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people, and
* the defendant realised others would think his actions were dishonest.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Jan-13 21:15:17
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Timalay:
Just a small question about the Openreach modem supplied with FTTC connections. Is yours to keep after a set while, or say if cancelled after your fibre contract was up would you have to give it back?


At the moment all fibre installs involve Openreach providing a new modem. There's no point at all in operators wanting return of the modem, they can't use it for anything. Openreach may feel slightly different about this as it's a demarcation point for the FTTC service between the Openreach network and the ISP.

This will change later this year of course with the introduction of wires-only FTTC installs assuming trials go as planned. ISPs will probably start supplying their own combined wireless modem router hardware as they do now.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Sat 05-Jan-13 21:16:41)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 21:34:30
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by StephenTodd:
If you can easily wall-mount the modem, do.
Ummm, I've had two, one of the early ones prone to overheating, (it didn't), and one of the "B" ones, both happy sitting on a desk and the ambient temperature getting quite high in the summer. Plus in the summer direct sunlight can hit them.
That gives better ventilation
True.
... and reduces risk of interference between modem and HomeHub.
Huh?
Where do you get that from?

(As has been pointed out, only BT Infinity users automatically have Home Hubs. "Router" would have been a better choice of word. But still "Huh?").

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Sat 05-Jan-13 21:46:06
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
... and reduces risk of interference between modem and HomeHub.

I should have said router: quite right.

It's not the wall mounting that makes the difference to interference, but the very close proximity of the devices.
Any two devices dealing with high frequency signals are liable to interfere with each other if put close together,
unless they are very well shielded (which I doubt the Openreach modems or any domestic routers are).

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 21:47:45
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The FTTC modem is BT network equipment - it's the Network Terminating Equipment for your FTTC service, with the presentation of that service being the Ethernet port on the modem. As such, it remains BT Openreach property, as with all NTE.
Not so, the BT NTE ends at the master socket.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:16:21
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
I don't agree. The VDSL modem belongs to Openreach. If it didn't why do they replace them free of charge ?

It is the demarcation point for the Openreach FTTC product.

Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:20:56
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
You fail to understand that there are two demarcations.

(1) the NTE.

(2) the modem, an active demarcation for the fttc service.


http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-...

Edited by systemx (Sat 05-Jan-13 22:26:16)

Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:24:29
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I've done a bit of looking around and, maybe he's been badly informed, but Batboy is wrong.

Unfortunately Google isn't being my friend and I can't find a source that I would class as authoritative. I'm hoping someone else (possibly more familiar with the maze that BT call documentation) can.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:31:40
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Well, if you missed that you should read the edit in systemx's post - right after you posted... that looks like an authoritative source to me.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:35:24
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
maybe he's been badly informed, but Batboy is wrong.

He has argued the same point in a thread before.

There are three types of Openreach FTTC repair tasks.

FTTC1 up to the modem.
FTTC3 (also known as Super Fast Visit Assured) up to the modem, and including it's out put.
FTTC Boost The whole shebang, including the CP's router.

In all these scenarios the modem is recognised as Openreach equipment.

If they weren't Openreachs, why did they spend so much money on having contractors replace all the original dubious ones ?

Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:36:37
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I missed that post- that'll do smile

I said Google wasn't being friendly... though maybe I should have used "fibre" and "cabinet" in the search terms, not been lazy and just used "fttc" crazy

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:40:04
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
having contractors replace all the original dubious ones ?
Most, not all- I've still got an original "dubious" one, and it's still going strong 2 1/2 years on smile

And I'm keeping schtum about it- if it ain't broke, don't fix it tongue

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:41:57
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, found a few that slipped through the net in my travels.

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:43:06
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Sometimes keeping 'em in the dark may be the best policy...
At some point I had no dial tone on a phone like used for ADSL only. I never reported the fault, since ADSL was working just fine, figuring out if I had any problem I had a ready-made voice fault to get BT to look at the line wink
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 22:50:21
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I think I can guess what happened with mine- I lost internet completely one Saturday. On the Tuesday an FTTC-qualified BT man came, with a spare modem as that was the usual problem.

I persuaded him to check sync with his test gear before I dived into the rat's nest behind my desk- he did, and no sync. So off he toddled to the cabinet.

It was a fault in the DSLAM, it needed resetting, so he finally went away with us both happy and me with the original modem smile

He was a good bloke- checked the wiring while was here, fixed a couple of crimped joints that shouldn't have been a funny green colour and I gained about 3Mbps grin


edit- typo

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6

Edited by billford (Sat 05-Jan-13 22:52:23)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:03:13
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by systemx:
You fail to understand that there are two demarcations.
They are quite clearly shown in Fig. 4. in http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/498v4p2.pdf


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:07:17
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by billford:
Most, not all- I've still got an original "dubious" one, and it's still going strong 2 1/2 years on smile
Nobody offered to change mine either. I still have it. I was with IDNet when the replacements were done on Infinity, and of course by the time I moved to Plusnet the fuss was over.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:07:29
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by billford:
Yes, I've done a bit of looking around and, maybe he's been badly informed, but Batboy is wrong.
Incorrect. As I said, information is hard to find and that is why I asked. I have already posted the information I received from Openreach, not from some anonymous posters on a forum.

Also I have once again posted the information about where the demarcation points are in BT SIN 498, which I regard as definitive.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________

Edited by BatBoy (Sat 05-Jan-13 23:10:35)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:14:33
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
The problem is Zarjaz, that there doesn't seem to be a single ISP that stipulates that the modem is not the end user's property. Oops, I think I read in Zen help the other day that on FTTC termination a jiffy bag will be sent for its return to Openreach.

Nowhere else that I know of.

As a user's contract is with their ISP there are bound to be ongoing issues, whatever Openreach documentation may say. Those are not documents the eponymous average reasonable person is expected to be aware even exist, never mind read.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:16:16
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
The document which states: The first variant is an Openreach supplied and maintained VDSL2 modem. which suggests the OR retain ownership of the modem. If they do not own it, why would they want to have responsibility for maintenance?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:17:57
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Have a look at one of my posts with links to BT documents. Those certainly do suggest OR retains ownership.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:23:20
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
There is. The BT Business Ts & Cs state:

title in equipment passes to the Customer on payment of the charges as detailed in the Charges Schedule at which point the equipment becomes Customer Equipment, however title in any equipment supplied without charge remains with BT as BT Equipment;
which is in my earlier post. and I have never seen a customer invoiced for the modem alongside installation and commencement of service. I have just checked a BT invoice from December and there are charges for service and the hub - which becomes te customer property but no charge for the modem which under the Ts & Cs remains BT property.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:23:43
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
BT SIN 498, which I regard as definitive.
That's a Service and Interface Description... extract from the front page:
This document does not form a part of any contract with BT customers or suppliers.


Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:23:46
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The problem is Zarjaz, that there doesn't seem to be a single ISP that stipulates that the modem is not the end user's property. Oops, I think I read in Zen help the other day that on FTTC termination a jiffy bag will be sent for its return to Openreach.

Nowhere else that I know of.

As a user's contract is with their ISP there are bound to be ongoing issues, whatever Openreach documentation may say. Those are not documents the eponymous average reasonable person is expected to be aware even exist, never mind read.



http://www.aa.net.uk/broadband-FC.html

Right down the bottom of the page in the tecnnical section
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:24:46
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
But is almost certainly irrelevant to the end user if not mentioned in the ISP's T & Cs. The ISP may be liable to recompense Openreach, but end users seem to be in the clear.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:26:50
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I saw you post that earlier, and it is quite clear there, I agree.

But there is no such clause in the BT non-business T & Cs. Why not? Accident, or design? If it isn't there, it can't be enforced.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:29:47
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Coincidentally, similar wording appears on that Openreach fact-sheet.

However
In reference to www.sinet.bt.com/faq.htm:
Q.1 What are SINs?

A. SINs are Suppliers' Information Notes, published by BT to meet its regulatory obligations relating to the publication of Customer Interface information. They are used to publish technical descriptions of BT's Customer Interfaces and services, and also to announce the launch, withdrawal or modification of interfaces and services.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:30:29
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In the BT res it states what they will supply ... it includes the hub and data extension kit but no modem. It mentions the installation of "network equipment" to enable use of the service. The Network Equipment is the modem ... a key word being Network - which is owned by BT.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:36:37
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
Yes. I have a vague memory of seeing that as well, a year or so ago. So we have two.

That still leaves us with several million people using BT FTTC who do not have any similar clause.

Note I'm not arguing about the true ownership - I agree that is Openreach. But I am in a way siding with BatBoy in that if the customer is not informed of this then the user is entitled to assume it is his. Just like the Home Wiring Solution.

IIRC BatBoy not long ago quoted from the correspondence a new signup to (home) Infinity receives, along the lines of "your Home Hub" and "your VDSL modem". Just the delivery mechanism that is different.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:36:54
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Looks like you've made an assumption there. I asked the providers so I didn't have to make any assumptions.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:47:43
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Yes. I have a vague memory of seeing that as well, a year or so ago. So we have two.

That still leaves us with several million people using BT FTTC who do not have any similar clause.

Note I'm not arguing about the true ownership - I agree that is Openreach. But I am in a way siding with BatBoy in that if the customer is not informed of this then the user is entitled to assume it is his. Just like the Home Wiring Solution.

IIRC BatBoy not long ago quoted from the correspondence a new signup to (home) Infinity receives, along the lines of "your Home Hub" and "your VDSL modem". Just the delivery mechanism that is different.


Years ago telephones were referred to as "your phone will be supplied in a colour of your choice" or words to that effect, but the phone belonged to BT/GPO telephones.

Anyway the point is that whoever the ISP is (they buy the product to include fitting of the modem) does not matter.

The home wiring solution is stated as becoming the property of the homeowner after it is used, along with the SSFP

Edited by systemx (Sat 05-Jan-13 23:51:46)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 05-Jan-13 23:51:56
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
Well, I guess in those days you had to sign a rental agreement for the phone so it was in writing who owned the phone.

It's good to have things in writing, you never know when you may need it.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sun 06-Jan-13 00:05:45
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by systemx:
Years ago telephones were referred to as "your phone will be supplied in a colour of your choice" or words to that effect, but the phone belonged to BT/GPO telephones.
Indeed... even now BT refer to "your telephone number", not "the telephone number we have assigned to you".

The word "your" indicates possession, not necessarily ownership.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sun 06-Jan-13 00:10:12
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I must admit that while the modem is the property of Openreach I do not think they would get too upset if you were to move and take it with you. I suspect the sooner they can dump all this end-user kit where it rightly belongs (with the ISP) the happier they will be.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 01:02:15
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure I'm with you. I have it on good authority that the modem is mine and I can do what I want with it. I have also provided a link to authoritative documentation about the network termination point and also a statement from the ISP describing the installation of my equipment.

Luckily, no-one has to take my word for it. They are all free to ask Openreach themselves and get their own confirmation in writing as I did.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sun 06-Jan-13 01:24:34
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I'm not sure I'm with you. I have it on good authority that the modem is mine and I can do what I want with it. I have also provided a link to authoritative documentation about the network termination point and also a statement from the ISP describing the installation of my equipment.

Luckily, no-one has to take my word for it. They are all free to ask Openreach themselves and get their own confirmation in writing as I did.


Well at present no ISP provides the modem, they only provide the router so they are in no position to give it to you, Can you provide a link which says the modem as opposed to the router is yours to keep.

i draw your attention to BT who say that if you move you should leave the modem at your old address for the use of the new property owner.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 01:28:22
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
That is why I said
Luckily, no-one has to take my word for it. They are all free to ask Openreach themselves and get their own confirmation in writing as I did.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 01:54:29
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
I have an answer to this question.

a week ago my install engineer revisited me as openreach have been investigating the large sync drops in my area (another user on my cabinet went from over 40mbit down to under 10mbit the same day I went down to 73mbit). They gave out an ECI modem to me and said I can keep the HG as well, I actually now have 2 ECI since I also got one from ebay.

So there was no urgency from the engineer to reclaim the HG.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sun 06-Jan-13 01:54:31
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
So why don't Openreach just say publicly that the modem becomes the property of the end-user, they do with the data extension if they fit one.

With any luck it will be wires only soon, so it will not matter.

Edited by systemx (Sun 06-Jan-13 02:03:16)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:01:19
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
There's no such document on the BT Infinity Residential side.
Yes there is: BT Infinity User Guide which contains:
Openreach modem

This is a VDSL modem, supplied and managed by Openreach
Q Why should I only use the BT Home Hub and Openreach modem?

Most broadband equipment can only work with standard broadband (ADSL),
but your Openreach modem uses different (VDSL) technology to give you faster
broadband speeds.

This modem is part of the Openreach network and must be used.
Openreach modem

The Openreach modem is supplied and managed by Openreach. It connects your BT Home Hub to the BT Infinity service. You canít customise the Openreach modem.

Your BT Home Hub and Openreach modem
Safety and regulatory instructions for your Openreach modem and BT Home Hub

ē Donít try to disassemble or open up your Hub or Openreach modem yourself. Not only will it make your warranty void, it may expose you to dangerous voltage or other hazards.


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:01:56
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I have an answer to this question.

a week ago my install engineer revisited me as openreach have been investigating the large sync drops in my area (another user on my cabinet went from over 40mbit down to under 10mbit the same day I went down to 73mbit). They gave out an ECI modem to me and said I can keep the HG as well, I actually now have 2 ECI since I also got one from ebay.

So there was no urgency from the engineer to reclaim the HG.


Yes I have two as well, but all that proves is that Openreach are not too concerned with reclaiming them, not that they are rightful yours (or mine)
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:07:53
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
Trouble is that OR doc. forms no part of the contract between the end-user and the ISP.

It may be part of the T&Cs between OR and the ISP, but that is not binding on the end-user. If the end-user swipes the modem it will be ISP's responsibility to recompense OR.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:15:55
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: systemx] [link to this post]
 
yes I never said otherwise, just said they dont seem bothered about keeping the modems.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:16:15
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I also asked about customising the modem. They said I could do it but it would void the warranty. All it does is change the firewall setting anyway.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 02:18:44
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
What you personally have been told by OR does not actually address the original Q for at least 3 reasons:
  1. You have no contract or any business relationship with OR.
  2. What you personally have been told does not extend to others.
  3. We are all aware that statements by individual agents of providers can often be untrue and do not necessarily reflect the policy of their organisation.


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 09:24:36
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
He was a good bloke- checked the wiring while was here, fixed a couple of crimped joints that shouldn't have been a funny green colour and I gained about 3Mbps

There are a couple of them out there. smile

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 06-Jan-13 09:37:09
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
"Supplied and managed", if definitive at all, to me could easily mean the opposite of owned. Why doesn't it say "owned"? It's poor wording. (Please stutter when reading that sentence tongue).

Similarly re your underlining of the word "Openreach". In the context, no different from the "BT" that accompanies the words "Home Hub".

Similar queries throughout the post.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(committed) Sun 06-Jan-13 10:06:34
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
There are a couple of them out there. smile



During the 11 months I experienced very poor connection stability, I was quick to complain that some engineers didn't get to the root cause(s) of the (various) problems.

However, I was equally quick to praise (officially) those who did tick each problem off as fixed.

It wasn't always the engineer's fault that he was the wrong type of engineer - sent by his employer to deal with the wrong type of fault, despite Plusnet specifically requesting SFI engineers on some occasions.

So, I would say there are far more than "a couple" of them out there smile
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 11:38:58
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
3, at last count. grin

Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(committed) Sun 06-Jan-13 11:48:41
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
smile smile smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 13:17:41
Print Post

Re: Openreach modem question


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Why doesn't it say "owned"? It's poor wording.
That's the trouble with consumer contracts, where you've had no hand in framing them. You look for some wording that you want to find but the other party has not worded them as you would expect.

EDIT: I did think that "This modem is part of the Openreach network" was fairly definitive.

Anyway, I think it is all a moot point. While I'm convinced the property is vested in OR. experience shows that individual OR engs who come to premises just don't care despite the policy of their firm.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 06-Jan-13 13:21:12)

Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 16:08:32
Print Post

So In Summary...


[re: Timalay] [link to this post]
 
.... the VDSL modem remains the property of Openreach according to the letter of the 'law' however for practical purposes they aren't bothered what SPs or end users do with them.

No different from Virgin Media and their legacy cable modems, remained their property at all times but made no attempt to recover them.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 16:26:07
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
I disagree as I have been informed otherwise.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 06-Jan-13 17:01:57
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I disagree as I have been informed otherwise.
The information you were given, and the form in which it was given, is probably legally binding in your case.

That doesn't mean, or even imply, that the person telling you so was correct. It has no relevance whatsoever to anyone else's modem.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 17:08:50
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Good job I suggested everyone asking Openreach themselves, really.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 18:55:10
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
is probably legally binding in your case.
In which case, how many peppercorns did he pay in consideration for the modem?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 06-Jan-13 18:55:54)

Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:31:06
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Not having FTTC, I don't have any experience of those modems.

However, the NTE5 is generally recognised as being BT Openreach property; and the customer should not access or interfere with the wiring behind it, onward back to the Cabinet and/or Exchange.

Where does the wiring for those modems originate from locally-

a) The front hence customer side of the NTE5

b) The back/Openreach side of the NTE5

c) Or is it totally different?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:35:28
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Interstitial VDSL/ADSL filter - similar in appearance to the iPlate but with a VDSL/ADSL socket at the top. Ther's a picture of mine on this page.

The interstitial plate is clearly Openreach, as it feeds the NTE5A.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:54:39
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Not having FTTC, I don't have any experience of those modems.
Nor have I. I'm solely looking at the legal aspects of it.

However, with Fibre, I believe the NTE5 ceases to be the borderline of OR's fiefdom; the OR modem becomes an NTE (Network Termination Equipment) in its own right.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:55:48
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Fortunately, I have already posted proof that this is wrong.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Moderator billford
(moderator) Sun 06-Jan-13 21:03:23
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The information you were given, and the form in which it was given, is probably legally binding in your case.
Not necessarily.

If it was on company stationery it probably had "E&OE" somewhere at the bottom...

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 21:04:57
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
And if it was in email it probably had a huge disclaimer at the bottom, although nobody ever reads them.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 21:06:46
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
You have no proof!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 22:16:07
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Not only do I have proof, I have also posted the link for you - even though you don't have Infinity.
But as I may have said before, I encourage anyone who is so minded, to request proof from Openreach as I did, rather than take my word for it.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 22:40:05
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I disagree as I have been informed otherwise.


You are aware that Openreach employees get things wrong too? I have seen more than one instance of this in the past months, from the CEO downwards.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/flexibledemarcationguide

** FTTC demarcation rules are as follows - The NTE5 is the Network Termination Point of the Openreach access network within the end userís premises, although Openreach also maintains the active NTE. The active NTE is the FTTC VDSL modem and will be located close to a power source and the desired service location. The active NTE can be located separately from the NTE5 and can be connected via Data Extension Kit (DEK) cabling up to a length of 30m. Any Openreach-installed data extension wiring comes with a one-year warranty and becomes the end userís property.


http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/indust...

Future Evolution
Ė Self Install SSFP?
Ė CP-owned Active NTE?


Seems a bit strange to be discussing the possibility of CPs owning an active NTE when giving them to end users, nor mentioning specifically that the data extension wiring becomes the end user's property rather than, say, everything after the NTE5.

Did you ask for this information from nga.enquiries? In my experience I've received some quite dubious info from them at times.

EDIT: I'll ask a contact from Openreach about this, see if he can confirm. Have been liaising with him over a few issues so he should be able to supply reliable information.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Sun 06-Jan-13 22:55:04)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:04:48
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
EDIT: I'll ask a contact from Openreach about this, see if he can confirm. Have been liaising with him over a few issues so he should be able to supply reliable information.
Well, there's your answer
** FTTC demarcation rules are as follows - The NTE5 is the Network Termination Point of the Openreach access network within the end userís premises



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:14:44
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That's a cheat, truncating the sentence.

Anyway it does not matter, since that doc scope is:
The document is produced for information purposes only. Communications Providers should refer to the applicable Openreach terms and conditions and the Openreach Price List. Their contents take precedence over any information held herein.
and so has no legal part to play between you, the end-user, and your ISP.

PS: Not received anything you promised.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:18:17
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
That's a cheat, truncating the sentence.
No, just removing the excess after the comma. The statement regarding the termination point is unchanged.
PS: Not received anything you promised.
No, no, I posted the link (much) earlier in this thread.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:38:11
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Not really, that's the end of the Openreach access network as it says, doesn't mean that Openreach don't consider the active NTE their property. The document specifically states that any extension wiring is the customers' property so the access network has to end there for obvious reasons.

I'll update once I've heard back.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:41:10
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
No, you're right - I never even considered that Openreach would be wrong but your mate would be right. Honest.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:43:55
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
One man's excess is another man's compelling argument grin
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
No, no, I posted the link (much) earlier in this thread.
You are being obstructive again! You just told me that you have posted it.

Anyway, same old, if you mean this.
This document does not form a part of any contract with BT customers or suppliers.
has no legal standing.

And is contradicted by systemx's link.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Jan-13 23:53:11
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
No, you're right - I never even considered that Openreach would be wrong but your mate would be right. Honest.


Spare me the juvenile sarcasm. As I said:

EDIT: I'll ask a contact from Openreach about this, see if he can confirm. Have been liaising with him over a few issues so he should be able to supply reliable information.


He's not my 'mate' but a contact within Openreach and as I said while I doubt it's the case I will ask him to confirm one way or the other and if he confirms what you say that's all good. I have not said at any point that my 'mate' disagreed as it being Sunday night he likely had better things to do than read his email.

If Openreach have no employees who get things wrong they're the only company of any size I've ever known who have employees who can answer each and every question.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 00:38:34
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
What I meant was why would your mate be more trustworthy than someone paid to respond to my query?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 00:40:39
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Wrong, the SIN is published to meet BT's legal obligations, whereas systemx's link has no legal authority at all.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 07-Jan-13 01:54:59
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
What I meant was why would your mate be more trustworthy than someone paid to respond to my query?


I'll respond with another question. If you have a query regarding an ISP's network who would you regard as more trustworthy, the technical support guy paid to respond to your query or the network engineer who works on and makes changes to the network on a daily basis even though he isn't paid to respond to your query?

Same kinda thing here. I'll update when I hear back, we are talking later today anyway on other matters.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-13 02:40:19
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Where's it say that anyway?

Maybe BT's legal obligations towards the state, not towards its end-users, who are not even in contract with it..

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 07-Jan-13 02:43:25)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 07:12:29
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Where's it say that anyway?

Maybe BT's legal obligations towards the state, not towards its end-users, who are not even in contract with it..
I've already posted it earlier on.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Mon 07-Jan-13 07:12:37
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Looking at it in legal terms, is it not better that the VDSL Modem remains the property of Openreach.

Being Mains-powered equipment, there is always the possibility of it causing fire etc.

That could affect insurance coverage and claims.

Should one inform the home/premises insurers of the presence of such equipment, possibly and probably owned by a Third Party?

=============================

Regarding removal of the VDSL Modem, typically when moving house, is there any advantage to doing so?


If the new house does not have FTTC installed, a new VDSL modem would be installed if that service is ordered etc.

If the new house does have FTTC with all items present, then that VDSL Modem is not required.

Leaving only the situation where the previous owner has removed a VDSL Modem.

-----------------------------------

It has some slight resemblance to the "Venetian Blind Conumdrum".

Take them to the new house, then discover they don't fit. What happens then?



Or as occurred when we moved in to a new house which had been the Show House.

Another couple purchased the Show House carpets, for their similar new house further along.

On trying to fit those carpets in their new house, the couple discovered the house was a mirror-image or opposite-handed compared to the Show House.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 07:14:06
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
The guy paid to do the job of answering queries, obviously. Everyone has an opinion, but that guy's job is to represent the company to customers.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 07:16:10
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Or the way I look at it, when I move into a house anything already in there gets binned.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User systemx
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-13 10:08:50
Print Post

Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
Not really, that's the end of the Openreach access network as it says, doesn't mean that Openreach don't consider the active NTE their property. The document specifically states that any extension wiring is the customers' property so the access network has to end there for obvious reasons.

I'll update once I've heard back.


Just to be clear on demarcations, have a look at this booklet for Openreach Techs

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/equival...
Standard User hoopla
(member) Mon 07-Jan-13 16:21:42
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
The document which states: The first variant is an Openreach supplied and maintained VDSL2 modem. which suggests the OR retain ownership of the modem. If they do not own it, why would they want to have responsibility for maintenance?
I don't have an opinion about who owns the modem.

However, I think your logic is faulty. If I went to the local garage and bought a car from them, it would be garage supplied and maintained. I'm pretty sure the car would still be my property.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Mon 07-Jan-13 16:26:04
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: hoopla] [link to this post]
 
Once you have bought the car the garage does not have an obligation to maintain it (warranty excepted). Each time you go back you specifically ask them to undertake maintenance and you are charged.

If you lease or rent a car - you do not own it. But the garage/supplier will maintain it at their cost

With the Modem, OR will maintain it at their cost.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 07-Jan-13 17:20:01
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In this instance it seems he was misinformed.

Carl,

Yes Ė you are right - we own the Active NTE and will replace it if it goes faulty. If it is damaged then we would charge the EU/CP.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Mon 07-Jan-13 17:20:23)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:11:12
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
Oh, well that proves it then... except I was told the opposite wink


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Standard User hoopla
(member) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:26:07
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
If I bought a car with a monthly fee for ongoing maintenance (which is more or less what fttc is: the electricity costs roughly nothing) it would be fixed for free and still my property.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:31:42
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: hoopla] [link to this post]
 
All depends on the terms of the contract you signed. I presume people do read lease agreements when spending money on a car. Some are such that if you default in the first half of the lease they take the car back and you lose everything.

Also cars have a lot more legal paperwork associated with them e.g. the V5 alongside the lease/hp/loan agreement.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User hoopla
(member) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:35:45
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I've only bought cars outright. Never used HP or lease.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:38:26
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Re: Openreach modem question


[re: hoopla] [link to this post]
 
Some lease contracts for cars include maintenance, some don't and some even now include insurance, i.e. you can get a Peugeot where all you do is pay the monthly fee and the fuel. Not looked into what happens at the end of the agreement - if it does have an end.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:45:11
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
You were told wrong, people make mistakes, but believe what you will.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 18:47:00
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
No, you were.


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 07-Jan-13 22:44:45
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
But my daddy is bigger than yours and Ignitionnet's so there!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 07-Jan-13 23:09:47
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Re: So In Summary...


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
grin


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