FTTH connecting fibre phone to original copper master socket

Hi.

I have recently had BT Fibre to the house installed. One thing I completely overlooked, is that my original copper house wiring will be completely unused. For some reason I thought just the broadband would come fibre optically, and the phone would still remain the same.
Anyway the copper master socket is in the living room together with the new fibre connection next to it. The house has some internal copper wiring allowing a phone in the bedroom and the kitchen. This was installed when we moved in, and don't know exactly how it works but it seems there is a Socket which sits directly over the master socket and this provides the connection to the other sockets around the house.
I would really still like to use this wiring and connect the phone to the socket in the kitchen (as before) but don't know how to accomplish this.

I would also like to add that I know this is strictly not a broadband question so maybe in the wrong forum, and also that I could use a phone system that has a hub connected directly to the fibre phone point and a wireless phone in the kitchen, I'd like to call this plan B. I have also tried to phone BT support but the kind african gentleman said it was not possible, although to be honest I didn't understand much he was saying.

So in short I have a fibre phone socket next to a copper phone socket, how can I connect one to the other?

All answers welcome, thanks in advance.
Richard.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Jan-13 20:02:37)

Can you provide photos of the two sockets please ?

Are you saying you have an FTTP service ? If so, then the engineer should have made the main house (copper) NTE live with the dial tone from the Fibre modem.

Should be easy enough to do yourself, but the photos will help us by allowing more accurate description.

So are you saying you have a phone connection through the new kit, but all extensions are now disabled?

Fear not - Zarjaz will sort you out .

ok, links to images:
copper master socket as it is now

fibre modem with phone plug

phone plug

So as I understand, everything is now coming via fibre, the phone and the broadband.
The phone plugs in to the fibre modem the enginner mounted on my wall.

The engineer did not make the main copper live as you described, or ateast I don't think so, the phone doesn't work if plugged in. I suggested to the engineer that we have the phone in the kitchen, but not quite nowing at the time that the original copper line would be made completely redundant. For this part I'm slightly annoyed that he didn't say something at this point. A few days later we tried to make a phone call and reading one of the many BT emails closely found out that the copper line is disabled and that I should move my phone over to the fibre modem, I had to ring a special 5 digit number to activate the service.

I haven't shown you the inside of the master socket, but the socket plate that you can see sits on top of the real master socket. Previous to now I only ever had an adsl filter on here, and just had a the phone plugged in at the kitchen.

Hope that all makes sense.

Post deleted by omgFTTC

The answer is to open up the copper master socket and disconnect your extensions, then move them to a new secondary socket hooked up to a flying lead. The master socket from your old incoming copper pair installation is an NTE5 type, so you can do this easily and legally - unscrew the front panel, and pull it away from the rest of the assembly, then, noting which wire goes to which number, pull the wires out of the back of the faceplate.

You cannot legally touch the wiring to the back part of the NTE5 - nor would you want to, as that is the (now dead) incoming copper connection. I guess that abandonment of the copper pair must mean you are in one of the trial Fibre Only Exchange areas.

You then need to mount your own secondary socket on the wall, to which you connect the extension wires and a short flying lead with a BT plug on the end (to plug into the fibre ONT in your photo), following the correct colour codes. You connect the wires from the extension using the numbers you noted when removing the wires from the NTE5 faceplate. If necessary, use a multimeter to figure out the colour code in your flying lead.

The easiest way to install this will be to use a secondary socket with screw connections, which means you will not need a punch-down too for the IDC blocks or to procure/make a flying lead with solid core cable (most cables with BT plugs are stranded, which will not reliably connect to IDC blocks).

The parts cost is minimal, though this does require a little electrical competence and a few basic tools. I'm surprised that Openreach don't offer this as a no-cost option if the intention is to discontinue voice service via copper pair after FTTP installation.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Jan-13 08:27:08)

Can we see all the cinnectors on the modem to 100% verify its fttp.

Fibre voice access is a rare beast, usually voice continues over the copper. You in deddington or another FoX area perhaps?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Can we see all the cinnectors on the modem to 100% verify its fttp.

Fibre voice access is a rare beast, usually voice continues over the copper. You in deddington or another FoX area perhaps?

Yes. I wonder if a battery back-up is provided so that the phone can still be used in the event of a power failure.

The picture the OP has posted looks like the BT FTTP ONT and unlike either of the BT FTTC modems, though it's a shame that it doesn't show the optical port to confirm this.

I was presuming FOX  - as FVA is otherwise very rare.

Here is my exchange.
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EACAX

Yeah I guess it's FTTP (rather than FTTH), the fibre cable comes all the way to the house, rather than stopping at the cabinet. I'm not at home atm so a picture of the optical bit will have to come later.

It seems David_W has the idea, that picture looks identical to my fibre modem, and splicing a connection from one to the other is what I thought the solution may be.

Is this something though BT should offer?

The email I recieved from BT when the penny dropped:

How to activate your new BT Fibre Home Phone service

Please follow the set-up video or these simple steps to activate your new BT Fibre Home Phone service.
1.Make sure your new Openreach Fibre Modem is switched on and check that the Tel1 light's constantly green
2.You now need to switch your main phone socket from copper to your new fibre service. To do this, slide back the spring-loaded cover on the top of your socket and you'll see a small switch. Use a slim object like a pen to firmly move the switch from 'Copper' to 'Fibre'. Then release the spring-loaded cover. (If you haven't got a 'Copper to Fibre' switch on your main phone socket, just unplug your phone from the phone socket and re-plug it into 'voice port one' on your Openreach Fibre Modem.)
3.Once you've completed steps 1 and 2, you need to activate your phone service - dial 142599 (between 8.30am and 4pm Mon to Fri) then follow the instructions for activation

If you don't follow these steps, your BT Fibre Home Phone service will automatically activate and your existing phone service will transfer. This should happen sometime on the next working day (up to three days, if there's a weekend in the way) - after this, your old phone service won't work and you'll need to follow step 2 only.

Okay seeing area means I am happy enough its really FTTP...so many people mis-name the fibre products one gets used to questioning.

reading what you posted there should have been a new faceplate to the master socket that has a switch to isolate the old copper network and link into the Telephone socket on the fibre ONT. It is possible this was forgotten.

Did the engineer change anything on the master socket at all.

An interesting thread but replies don't seem to take advantage of the options available to you that don't require any technical expertise. My understanding is that with FTTP you are not obldged to have a seperate phone service in much the same way if you had opted for a cable service from Virgin.

I may be wrong but I would have thought that the phone socket on the FTTP hardware is actually an optional VoIP service. Whether you could use a VoIP provider of your choice is another matter but all can use the phone number of your former fixed line.

Just nip down to the High Street and buy yourself a wireless phone in a twin or quad pack. Plug that into the FTTP hardware phone socket, activate the VoIP service and enjoy better facilities and cheaper calls. The only down side is that power is required although a UPS unit could help there.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5013-openreach-pr...

While VoIP is used, it is actually designed as a replacement for the copper voice line, and is an option. In terms of call costs just because it is using VoIP for part of the transit there is no guarantee it is cheaper than standard PSTN - which with the 21CN network is largely VoIP based anyway.

Hi

Did you ask for the phone over fibre when you signed up for FTTP?
Also, was this with BT, or with a different ISP?

I'm wondering if the standard FTTP connection now is all fibre rather than just internet over fibre.

I'm waiting for the FTTP to be hooked up to my house, but with a different ISP to BT who still handle calls.

Thanks
GunSmoke

Sorry for the delay.

First things first. If you plug a phone in to the 'Tel 1' do you get a dialling tone ? If yes, then that's a start.

"I haven't shown you the inside of the master socket, but the socket plate that you can see sits on top of the real master socket."

Which 'socket plate' I don't see one in the pictures you linked to ? There *should* have been an interstitial faceplate fitted, which , if the engineer fitted up correctly, has a switch on it to adjust the feed from either the original copper feed to the feed from the FTTP modem. Is this what you were refering to ? If so, where is it now ?

If this hasn't been supplied ....
Does that black lead have a PSTN jack on both ends ? (ie the white jack you are seen holding) If so, then plugging one end in to Tel 1 as pictured, and the other in to the front of the NTE should make the extension in the kitchen work.

If you get this far, and now have dial tone in the kitchen, post back, as you will then have to remove the original feed to the NTE, as you don't want you number travelling back down the line to the exchange ....

Good luck, keep us posted.

@rjleiser
Have a read of your PM's. Click the flashing red envelope to the left of Forum Index in the top menu.

more images:

fibre modem
mastersocketapart
mastersocketapart2
mastersocket
mastersocketbacktogether

Yes I get a dialling tone from 'Tel 1' this is now where the phone is plugged into and working, I can make and recieve calls, only I wish my phone in the kitchen.

I do get a dialling tone from any of the original copper sockets around the house, only before I finished dialling the number I get the classic beep-beep-beep unobtainable message.
The enginner did nothing with the original master socket. The phone jack you see (2nd post) pictured is simply the other end of the phone. I will buy the cable pictured from amazon and try plugging it in from the fibre modem (tel1) socket into the master socket. I think I'd be happier if it didn't currently have any kind of dialling tone on the copper socket before putting this cable on, sounds like I might need to cut some wires to complete the patch coz as you suggest I don't want anything travelling back to the exchange.
Before cutting anything though I would like to know if BT should be helping me out here?
Many thanks for all the help so far. Nice to get a bit of knowledge on these things I normally just take for granted.

I think I'd be happier if it didn't currently have any kind of dialling tone on the copper socket before putting this cable on, sounds like I might need to cut some wires to complete the patch coz as you suggest I don't want anything travelling back to the exchange.
Before cutting anything though I would like to know if BT should be helping me out here?

Firstly BT should be making it clear to you if your phone service is going to be provided over the fibre or the copper. Ask them. Escalate it if you don't get an answer. It appears your installation is incomplete if the fibre is to provide the phone and the switchover plate is not fitted - complain.

You also posted a set of instructions which included a number to dial to complete the switchover from copper to fibre, I presume that is necessary to make incoming calls come down the fibre rather than the copper - have you tried calling yourself to see if the fibre phone service responds ?

In my opinion you should get BT back to fix it / finish it. Failing that you can leave the faceplate off the master socket and plug a "male to male" phone lead into the faceplate to get signal to the kitchen.

Seems you're suffering from being a guinea pig and getting beta version 0.9 of the service !

I'd love to be a guinea pig on a pure fibre service, I'd soon patch the telephone in to my extension wiring and hook up the modem to my UPS

He could always carefully cut off the plug or remove the contacts from the plug that is on the back of the face plate, thus isolating it from the master socket back part. Ensuring the remaining bits of the electrical connectors are not touching of course.

If they don't mind waiting for BT to come back, taking a day off work then the best option would be to get BT to do the job properly.

I'd agree with Yarwell, that the best/correct course of action would be to have BT back out to rectify this.

However, it maybe that when ordered the voice part wasn't on the job sheet.

If you can get the PSTN to PSTN lead as described before, and can live with the frontplate of the NTE hanging off, plugging between the two is the easiest option.

You could hardwire the lead as described, but then would need a krone tool also. To neaten this you'd looking to cut off the feed to the two rear screws on the NTE, but that is technically a no-no.

I was suggesting the use of a screw terminal secondary socket to obviate the need for a Krone tool, also to avoid contact issues between the IDC blocks and the (likely stranded) wire in the flying lead.

The best solution would clearly be if BT Openreach supply the Copper / Fibre interstitial plate for the NTE5.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I was suggesting the use of a screw terminal secondary socket to obviate the need for a Krone tool, also to avoid contact issues between the IDC blocks and the (likely stranded) wire in the flying lead.

The best solution would clearly be if BT Openreach supply the Copper / Fibre interstitial plate for the NTE5.

A master socket should always be left connected to the incoming pair, whether used or not, or automatic line testing will fail. (for those with an interest in auto line testing, I think BT sin 351 refers)

My personnel favourite method of dealing with this problem is to click open the removable faceplate and cut the track to the plug.

In reply to a post by systemx:

A master socket should always be left connected to the incoming pair, whether used or not, or automatic line testing will fail.

I wasn't suggesting tampering with the master side of the NTE5.

My suggestion was to remove the extension wiring from the NTE5 faceplate, then connect this extension wiring and a flying lead to a screw secondary socket. The use of a screw secondary socket means there is no need for a Krone punch-down tool or contact issues with the (likely stranded wire) flying lead in the IDC blocks. The master side of the NTE5 would be left untouched.

However, Zarjaz pointed out that BT Openreach would ideally have supplied an interstitial plate for the NTE5 with a copper/fibre switch. In the copper position, this plate feeds the extension wiring from the NTE5 as normal. In the fibre position, the link to the incoming copper pair is broken and the extensions are fed from a flying lead plugged into the fibre ONT's voice port. This is clearly the best option of all.

The problem here is that they forgot to take account of any phone extensions you may have. They just supplied a master fibre socket in the modem nearby your existing master copper socket.

A job half-done .

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

The problem here is that they forgot to take account of any phone extensions you may have. They just supplied a master fibre socket in the modem nearby your existing master copper socket.

A job half-done .

Not "they".

The engineer.

Hence the mention of a special interstitial plate, still chasing up with BT for info on this

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Hence the mention of a special interstitial plate, still chasing up with BT for info on this

You have probable seen this, but it is shown in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R14euORNdHQ&list=UUxZ...

I called BT today, this time with more success than last-time. Seems like it goes from one extreme to the other, firstly someone I could barely understand telling me nothing could be done (hence my raising of this post), to this time where a friendly voice with immediate knowledge of my problem - that's what I like to hear!
The kind Kirstan told me ring back on 0800 032 0843, apparantly not all departments are fully up to speed on what should happen, but 'some part of the fibre-ver-voice installation order' was not correct, I asked for a technical term to quote here, but none was given, we'll see what the engineer has to say tomorrow. Apparantly there will be no charge as this should have been part of the install.

Jolly good. As you will have read there are lots of ways to achieve what you want, but the official plate is best.

Apart from this phone problem I bet you have a fast connection!!

Some pictures of the filter and switch plates, before, during and after the installation would be useful. The BT Tech should not be too worried, just ask him and keep him out of the pictures.

we'll see what the engineer has to say tomorrow. Apparantly there will be no charge as this should have been part of the install.

Cushty, let us know how you get on.

P.S. You might get a laugh from the engineer, if you tell him you had heard that the interstitial faceplates are nicknamed 'Brighton Switches'. (They swing both ways). ......... or possibly not. .

The danger of that Zarjaz, is if ....

good, if they don't get the feedback they don't know installs are going wrong and can't take corrective action.