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Standard User tallseabird
(member) Tue 15-Jan-13 10:33:30
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FTTC browsing speed


[link to this post]
 
Got FTTC installed yesterday and apart from a few niggles I am getting speeds of 74/16 however I was expecting browsing to be snappier, at best I would say it is slightly quicker but I was expecting a significant boost to page loading times. I have tried one large download and I got 8.5 MB/sec so it is fast.

Could this be an MTU or RWIN type setting?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 15-Jan-13 10:38:12
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
More likely to be browser-based or DNS.

Try different browsers, IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari.

Try different DNS servers, Google, OpenDNS.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 15-Jan-13 10:45:06
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Increasing number of threads browser users and ensuring your DNS lookups are fast is main thing.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User mikecrawford80
(member) Tue 15-Jan-13 10:48:57
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
It depends what Broadband connection you have come from... A web page with 100 Kb of data will load at the same speed on a 1 Mb connection as it will on a 74 Mb connection.

You may see slight improvement because you upstream is so much faster and also because your latency should (probably) have reduced.

There are lots of factors, not just raw download / upload speed.

Plusnet Unlimited Fibre
My Broadband Ping
Standard User tallseabird
(member) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:02:26
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In my DLink router, the DNS servers are set at 0.0.0.0 - I assume that means I am using Plusnet DNS servers. Is that wrong?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:04:04
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
Not wrong at all, perfectly normal.

It is a case of finding which DNS work best for you, and sometimes putting the ISP DNS IP directly onto the PC can improve things, as some routers can be slow at handling DNS queries.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User tallseabird
(member) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:35:44
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Sorry to harp on

I have specidifed my ISP DNS serers in my router settings but I have discovered that my PC has TCP/IP4 setting which are set to "Obtain DNS server automatically", should they be set to the same as the router? Does one take precedence?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:37:39
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
The PC settings will take precedence, so one test you can do it to set the PC to Google DNS 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 and see if that speeds things up.


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Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:39:35
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
in reality once you get a above a few mbit/sec then web browsing wont feel faster on faster speeds unless the sites are media heavy like lots of big images.

it will make things like youtube hd videos stream faster and file downloads faster.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User Saltank
(member) Tue 15-Jan-13 11:48:08
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
I would recommend GRC DNS Bench to find the best DNS servers for you.

In my case when I had Virgin Media, I used the Google DNS and OpenDNS servers, then when I performed the benchmark and noticed they were slower than the VM ones, I used two primary VM ones and one Google one.

___________________________
My Broadband Speed Test
Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro Ping Monitor

IDNet Business Priority Fibre 75/16

Virgin Media 100Mbit
(Disconnected due to over-utilisation and bad CS)

Edited by Saltank (Tue 15-Jan-13 12:06:15)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 18-Jan-13 17:57:43
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Increasing number of threads browser users (and ensuring your DNS lookups are fast) is main thing.
Is this possible on IE please Andrew?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 18-Jan-13 18:01:11)

Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 18-Jan-13 18:14:06
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Increasing number of threads browser users....
Is this possible on IE please Andrew?

Are you talking about this...?

If you are using Internet Explorer 8

1.Go to Start > Run
2.Enter "regedit" and hit ENTER
3.On the left, navigate to the following HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\MAIN\FeatureControl\FEATURE_MAXCONNECTIONSPERSERVER folder by:
1.Click HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, then
2.SOFTWARE, then
3.Microsoft, then
4.Internet Explorer, then
5.MAIN, then
6.FeatureControl, then
7.FEATURE_MAXCONNECTIONSPERSERVER
4.FEATURE_MAXCONNECTIONSPERSERVER should be selected on the left column
5.Go to Edit > New > DWORD Value
6.A box should appear. Put the name as "iexplore.exe", without double quotes. Press Enter.
7.Double click the entry you just created, select Base as "Decimal" and type 10 under Value data
8.On the left, click on FEATURE_MAXCONNECTIONSPER1_0SERVER, which is just near to the one already selected
9.Go to Edit > New > DWORD Value
10.A box should appear. Put the name as "iexplore.exe", without double quotes. Press Enter.
11.Double click the entry you just created, select Base as "Decimal" and type 10 under Value data
12.Close Registry Editor
13.Restart your system and the changes should take effect

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 18-Jan-13 18:27:04
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
That a perfect set of instructions Ade, thanks smile.

But?

So I'm adding the DWORD, with the value of 10 in each entry. Is that the number of threads to allow? If so, what is the default?

In other words, you say the changes take effect on a reboot, but I don't know what to look for except snappier complex website loading.

(And I can navigate a tree - grrrr tongue smile).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 18-Jan-13 19:22:18
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Default, IIRC, is either 4 or 6 on IE8 / W7 and 2 on older browsers/OSs., which was fine in the days of dial-up and 1st generation DSL, but not much use for high speed fibre.


I read many moons ago ten is the limit, although I can't (for the life of me) work out why that should be the case. Decimal 10 is an unusual top-out for a hex number and a PITA (well; at least a waste) to store as a binary (1010 in a 4-bit word and 00001010 in an 8-bit word). Ten (as a limit) doesn't seem to make any sense (but we are talking about MS software here wink). Unless the max connections per server value shares a word with something else (but still a stupid value, even if it's only allocated four bits - surely the limit would be 15 - or 16, depending on whether '0' is counted as zero or one).

but I don't know what to look for except snappier complex website loading

That's basically it...FWIU if allows IE to grab ten items at the same time, rather than two or six.
Less of a difference with IE8 / W7 (although 2/3rds as many items at once), but a massive increase from the default 2 of older browser/OS combinations.

In reality it makes little difference for largely txt based web sites, but does considerably speed up sites with large amounts of photos, Java, Flash embedded, etc.

BTW; it's a similar tweak (although in a totally different place in the registry for IE7.

No idea about IE9 - my guess is MS have either already adapted their latest browser (for faster connections) or moved it again!

The tweak does have a strange side-effect... Once enabled there's a slight pause when you load a new web page.
My guess is built into the browser (somewhere - good hunting) is a feature where IE (or Windows) waits until it has a response from all threads before loading anything on the page.
So you get a very slightly longer (albeit still quite short) initial pause, but then the page and all elements load much faster.

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 18-Jan-13 22:43:23
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
I'm on IE9 so maybe the default has changed again. The two registry entries are where you said. I agree 10 is a very strange number.

I might give it a whirl when in the mood smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User tallseabird
(member) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:17:14
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
Is there a comparable set of instructions for Firefox or Chrome?
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:26:18
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
For firefox, go to "about:config" and enter "network.http.max" in the search box... this will show a few values which you can change, in particular "max-connections" and "max-persistent-connections-per-server"; if you use a proxy server you may want to increase the "max-persistent-connections-per-proxy" (exact wording may vary with version but you get the idea).
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:30:59
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tallseabird:
Is there a comparable set of instructions for Firefox or Chrome?

You can access the Firefox limit from within Firefox itself (none of this Microsoft 'hide it in the registry' nonsense)...
Type about:config in the Firefox URL bar and scroll down to 'network.http.max-persistent-connections-per-server'

It seems Chrome is fixed at 6 connections and it's not available to change (it's fixed within the code).

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps

Edited by adebov (Sat 19-Jan-13 13:36:08)

Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:34:23
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I agree 10 is a very strange number.

I've done a bit more digging and the general consensus seems to be the number '10' is banded around as being a limit imposed by some web-servers (probably a DOS attack prevention measure). If such a server detects more than 10 concurrent connections from a single IP, they disconnect.

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 19-Jan-13 17:14:29
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
its worth mentioning the defaults on threads in browsers such as firefox now breaches RFC, its impolite to use high numbers of threads to fetch content from a web server.

In practice not many people actually care hence the defaults been bumped up, but still I wouldnt go to excessive values, especially if keepalive is been used. (now enforced on firefox 18).

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 17:21:24
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adebov:
I've done a bit more digging and the general consensus seems to be the number '10' is banded around as being a limit imposed by some web-servers (probably a DOS attack prevention measure). If such a server detects more than 10 concurrent connections from a single IP, they disconnect.

Well, interestingly the only case when I've seen what's obviously 50 or more download threads is bingbot indexing a site... and I checked that the IP address shows as "assigned ti Microsoft" in whois so it wasn't somebody spoofing the user-agent. (I noticed that because I got an alert from a server for what looked like a DOS, and given the source I'll call it MS-DOS - sorry).
So MS may enforce a limit in IE, but not in their own search engine.
(And I've reduced the limit on number of connections per IP, just in case they come back).
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 19-Jan-13 21:43:59
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
its worth mentioning the defaults on threads in browsers such as firefox now breaches RFC, its impolite to use high numbers of threads to fetch content from a web server.

So the defaults on IE, FF and Chrome (which are all 6) are all in breach and Chrome is fixed (so you don't even have the option of reducing it). So all Chrome users are, by their very nature, impolite wink
BTW which RFCs? I assume you mean the http1.0 & http1.1 RFCs. They're big documents and I can't really be bothered searching through to find a one-liner concerning max connections initiated by the client (so I'm taking your word for it).

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 19-Jan-13 21:46:39
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
FF is higher than 6. its 20 last time I checked.

6 is ok without keepalive.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 19-Jan-13 21:48:53)

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 21:51:35
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adebov:
BTW which RFCs? I assume you mean the http1.0 & http1.1 RFCs. They're big documents and I can't really be bothered searching through to find a one-liner concerning max connections initiated by the client (so I'm taking your word for it).

Well, I read them from start to end once upon a time and so I could easily find this in RFC2616:
"Clients that use persistent connections SHOULD limit the number of simultaneous connections that they maintain to a given server. A single-user client SHOULD NOT maintain more than 2 connections with any server or proxy."
However these are more recommendation than mandatory limits (which would say MUST NOT - and BTW the ALL CAPS are from the RFC itself). Also RFC2616 has been updated by a number of more recent RFCs and I haven't checked if the above has been changed.
edit - the updates to RFC2616 don't seem to mention anything about max number of connections.

Edited by Uilebheist (Sat 19-Jan-13 21:53:27)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 19-Jan-13 23:07:04
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
But if the problem is slow web-page loading when there are many links to pick up, which is where this question arose, surely those are not persistent links?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 23:25:43
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Not sure RFC2616 is very clear in this respect.
Just before the bit I quoted it states that all client must open connection assuming that the server will support persistent links, but may revise the assumption depending on the reply they receive. So it would follow that opening more than 2 links is frowned upon, unless you know in advance the server does not support keepalive. But they never say anything explicit.
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 20-Jan-13 00:41:57
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I suppose the pertinent word is "maintain".
Is if frowned upon to temporarily open up more than 2 connections to aid speedy loading of complex pages (e.g. ones with dozens of images) provided those connections are closed once all elements are downloaded?
If 'keep alive' does, indeed, "keep alive" all opened connections (e.g. if you set 10 connections per server, so the web page completes faster, and 'keep alive' holds open the final 10 connections) then "we" have a problem - particularly Chrome, as the "max connections" is fixed at 6 (unless Chrome has a separate limit on keep alive connections).

The ambiguity is where RFC:2616 says "SHOULD limit the number of simultaneous connections that they maintain to a given server" but doesn't really define "maintain".
Is a maintained connection defined as one which is held open (e.g. if there are 10 max connections set up and there are 10 live streaming thumbnail videos, then presumably all ten are held open).
Is a connection held open only long enough for an image to be transferred (before closing and moving on to grab another element) not categorized as a "maintained" connection?

I'm going to quote figures from Firefox (only because they're easier to obtain than trawling through the registry to find the same figures for IE)...
network.http.max-connections default integer 256

network.http.max-persistent-connections-per-proxy default integer 8

network.http.max-persistent-connections-per-server default integer 6

So clearly FF default settings go against the limits defined in RFC:2616 (unless these are not counted towards the "maintained connections" - although the word "persistent" could be taken to mean "maintain").
In fact it seems only IE8 (and below) has a limit of 2 (and that's only for http1.0 - for http1.1 the IE default is 6, so that also goes against RFC:2616).

I find it hard to imagine MS, Google and Mozilla would collectively (and presumably; independently) decide to breach RFC:2616 unless the maintained (keep alive) connections are limited, elsewhere, to 2 - or unless those limits in RFC:2616 no longer apply (possibly because it was written 13 years ago, at a time when most office local LAN connections were slower than it's possible for home internet connections to go these days???).

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 10:01:35
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adebov:
I find it hard to imagine MS, Google and Mozilla would collectively (and presumably; independently) decide to breach RFC:2616 unless the maintained (keep alive) connections are limited, elsewhere, to 2 - or unless those limits in RFC:2616 no longer apply (possibly because it was written 13 years ago, at a time when most office local LAN connections were slower than it's possible for home internet connections to go these days???).

I wouldn't find that surprising. For example, there is a standard for cookies (RFC 2965), which none of these browsers seem to even know about (only Opera and a few other less-known browsers seem to comply!), the mechanism they use is from RFC 2109 which is not a standard and is marked as "obsolete". I could provide a login page on a site which is fully standard compliant, and only Opera users would be able to log in. Compliance for the "major" browser has always been a matter of "if it's convenient we'll do it".
As for the limit having been changed in the past 13 years, I checked the updates to RFC2616 (as listed in the RFC index I downloaded last night) and there is no change to that particular bit. Perhaps nobody felt it necessary to do anything since it is being ignored anyway.
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 20-Jan-13 10:36:42
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Re: FTTC browsing speed


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Uilebheist:
I wouldn't find that surprising. For example, there is a standard for cookies (RFC 2965), which none of these browsers seem to even know about

My guess is if Microsoft can't be bothered to make software that actually works properly, they're sure as Hell not going to bother reading the very wordy RFCs!


In reply to a post by Uilebheist:
I checked the updates to RFC2616 (as listed in the RFC index I downloaded last night) and there is no change to that particular bit. Perhaps nobody felt it necessary to do anything since it is being ignored anyway.

Quite possibly smile

Ade

vDSL2 FTTC Infinity with BT
DL Sync 80Mbps
UL Sync 20Mbps
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