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Standard User jjpearce
(newbie) Fri 18-Jan-13 20:24:57
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Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[link to this post]
 
My line syncs around 15mbps. It is roughly 900 yards from the cabinet.

Apart from saving for the next 10 years to pay for fibre on demand, what are the chances of people with longer lines being able to receive closer to the 40Mbps plus of others ?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 18-Jan-13 20:28:38
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
How good are you at changing the laws of physics?

Even when/if profile 30 is rolled out it will not offer very much extra (if any) to those far away from the cabinet. Maybe a power increase or a new modem front end might improve the reception of low power signals but that is unlikely and even if it did the increase obtained would be small.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mikecrawford80
(member) Fri 18-Jan-13 20:53:18
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
Vectoring may offer some hope too, there's been a few stories about it on the TBB news (have a look back through the archive).

15Mbps seems a little low for 900 yards, I'm 950m and get 28 Mbps.

Plusnet Unlimited Fibre
My Broadband Ping


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Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 18-Jan-13 20:55:24
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
if you said in metres I would have gave you an opinion based on whats achievable with vectoring.

I suspect BT are cutting back power to try and handle crosstalk, this in turn will reduce syncs.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 18-Jan-13 20:57:05)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 18-Jan-13 21:07:03
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Vectoring will not add much ... at long distances it is the attenuation that is the real problem.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User izools
(experienced) Fri 18-Jan-13 21:12:51
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jjpearce:
My line syncs around 15mbps. It is roughly 900 yards from the cabinet.

Apart from saving for the next 10 years to pay for fibre on demand, what are the chances of people with longer lines being able to receive closer to the 40Mbps plus of others ?


Although if FTTP on demand installation costs £1,500 at ten years that works out to £2.88 a week. I'm sure you could afford more?

But of course you were just being flippant.

No, there are other more (in the short term at least) cost effective options. You could have a second phone line installed and a second FTTC connection installed, each should sync at roughly what you're getting now but with an ISP that supports MLPPP you would see it as one single 30 meg line wink

_____________________________________________
BE Unlimited ¦ 7.4Mb 49dB Down ¦ 1.2Mb 32dB Up ¦ 3dB Fastpath ¦ Netgear DGND3700
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User shado
(newbie) Fri 18-Jan-13 21:57:09
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
Fibre enabled cabinets which are placed in the centre of a large housing developments will work well.
As you know VDSL goes down hill big time when we increase the distance from the cabinet to a point where it starts to level off with the performance of ADSL+2.This so called 'last mile' will always be a problem and the only way around it is for Openreach to use advanced copper technology in it's many different forms.See one example of this from the link below.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5495-genesis-give...
Standard User simon194
(committed) Fri 18-Jan-13 22:01:52
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: mikecrawford80] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mikecrawford80:
15Mbps seems a little low for 900 yards, I'm 950m and get 28 Mbps.

It could be aluminium cable.
Standard User ToneDeaf
(member) Fri 18-Jan-13 22:20:52
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
I currently sync at 27mbps on a mixture of aluminium and copper along the route (as told to me once by a BT Engineer acquaintance) approx 800m from the cab.

Zen Fibre Active 26Mbps/6Mbps
Standard User arfster
(knowledge is power) Sat 19-Jan-13 07:38:32
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jjpearce:
My line syncs around 15mbps. It is roughly 900 yards from the cabinet.

Apart from saving for the next 10 years to pay for fibre on demand, what are the chances of people with longer lines being able to receive closer to the 40Mbps plus of others ?


There was talk that a full implementation of vectoring might allow 50mbit at 1000 metres, and 100mbit with bonding.

Your line clearly isn't very good though - I am on adsl2+ at 1150 metres from the exchange and get about the same as you.

Have you done all the usual test stuff, disconnecting extension wiring etc?
Standard User mikejp
(newbie) Sat 19-Jan-13 10:01:23
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: izools] [link to this post]
 
You could have a second phone line installed and a second FTTC connection installed,
- ho ho ho! Many cabinets are already maxed out on connection capability with 1 per house.

Re ADSL2+/VDSL the graphs I have seen (for good local loop) put the meeting point at around 2400m so, yes, I go for a rubbish local loop.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sat 19-Jan-13 11:10:58
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: mikejp] [link to this post]
 
ho ho ho! Many cabinets are already maxed out on connection capability with 1 per house.

What do you base that info on ? THE busiest cab round here, PCP40 off of Reading South, has been in use for over two years, and still isn't full.

Standard User mikejp
(learned) Sat 19-Jan-13 11:43:54
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Not Reading South
Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Sat 19-Jan-13 12:16:08
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
Regarding cable distances, has anyone any idea of how accurate the BE site is?

http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

It gives my distance as 1,286 metres, which ties in very well with the likely road distance and local cabinet distance.

Typically 24 db Downstream Attenuation, comparing well with 23 db measured around 1988.

The cabinet is literally "just across the road", say 25 metres directly north-west; but I know that my connection goes north-eastwards to a small, pavement jointing box, about 60 metres away, before heading westwards for about 65 metres (although there may be further wandering!) to the cabinet.

The pavement jointing box came to light when I had my line checked for noise around 1990, dial-up use then, when the source of the noise was traced to the joints in that little box.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 12:37:16
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
It gives me 1263 metres. I am 664 metres straight line distance from the exchange, and the cabinet is 170 metres away (measured by pacing the cable route, not straight line distance)... so either it takes the scenic route between the exchange and the cabinet, or the distance is a bit overestimated.
Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Sat 19-Jan-13 12:42:28
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: jjpearce] [link to this post]
 
I omitted Speed etc.

Downloads are generally about 14.8 Mbps.

Uploads are around 0.9 Mbps.

Bright Box Statistics-

Earliest Latest Elapsed Days
22-Jun-12 to 19-Jan-13 211
11:00:00 12:30:00
"Extracted from :-
Advanced Setup
System
adsl status"
"Automatic
G992.5 (ADSL2+)"
SHOWTIME
Fast Path

Best Average Worst Median
5.9 6.4 9.3 6.3 Down Noise margin (dB) :
24.0 24.3 25.0 24.5 Down Attenuation (dB) :
6.1 7.2 10.8 7.1 Up Noise margin (dB) :
11.3 11.5 11.7 11.5 Up Attenuation (dB) :

1,286 Line Length Metres



Best Average Worst Median
Downstream Actual Data Rate
18,247 17,888 15,968 18,032 Rate (kbps)
16,100 16,100 16,100 16,100 BT IP Profile
Upstream
1,195 1,159 888 1,171 Rate (kbps)

Uptime from Last Break (Misleading as highly dependent on when data recorded, relative to Last Break)
Max/Good Average Min/Bad Median
23 15:43:23 04 11:52:29 00 00:02:20 01 12:00:00
dd hh:mm:ss dd hh:mm:ss dd hh:mm:ss dd hh:mm:ss

10/01/2013 Most Recent Reboot

(Must investigate formatting from EXCEL!)
Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Sat 19-Jan-13 12:46:52
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
Is that "as the crow flies" or is it (likely) road distance?

I am fortunate in that over about 500 metres, there is no choice, the other half having only two likely choices, with little difference between them.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:13:31
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Is that "as the crow flies" or is it (likely) road distance?

The 664 metres is as the crow flies. The distance to the cabinet is measured along the (mostly visible) cable route. From there, the road distance is not very different from the straight line distance: essentially, head due west for 200 metres, then north-west to the exchange. Both roads are straight, so I'd estimate road distance at about 700-800 metres from cabinet to exchange and 850-1000 metres for total phone line length if it goes that way. But BT may have used different roads so the 1263 metres could reflect that. There are a few choices where a pointless detour can be taken.
Standard User simon194
(committed) Sat 19-Jan-13 13:15:10
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Uilebheist:
It gives me 1263 metres. I am 664 metres straight line distance from the exchange, and the cabinet is 170 metres away (measured by pacing the cable route, not straight line distance)... so either it takes the scenic route between the exchange and the cabinet, or the distance is a bit overestimated.

My parent's place is about 30m as the crow flies from the exchange and it gives a length of 1276m which it probabaly in the ball park. Being all overhead lines you quite easily work out where the line runs.

In their case it runs from the exchange to the PCP which is about 500m then doubles back on itself for about 400m, then up the road for about 300m or so to a pole on the opposite side of the road just beyond their house.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 19-Jan-13 15:30:31
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Even when/if profile 30 is rolled out it will not offer very much extra (if any) to those far away from the cabinet.
I doubt if profle 30 will be around for a very long time.

The specification by Openreach for ISP-supplied modems says they must be 17a and vectoring capable. No mention of 30.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User bobbyboyuk
(member) Sat 19-Jan-13 16:39:40
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
im 1100 metres from the cab and sync at 12mb , id happily pay £500-£1000 for a fttp install.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sat 19-Jan-13 17:26:58
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Sadly ADSL 2+ performance isn't a guide to FTTC.
Standard User Richeh
(committed) Sat 19-Jan-13 17:30:28
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: bobbyboyuk] [link to this post]
 
1.1km and after 3 weeks my connection iscurrently sitting at 22MB down and 6.5mb up. Annoyingly connected at 26.9MB initially but has slowed over a few weeks and ping has gone from 10 to 30 frown

Back at parents:

Sky Broadband Unlimited:
4mb down 768k up frown

Waiting on fibre...

Edited by Richeh (Sat 19-Jan-13 17:30:42)

Standard User bobbyboyuk
(member) Sat 19-Jan-13 17:34:44
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
Sadly ADSL 2+ performance isn't a guide to FTTC.


ADSL2+ ? Im on FTTC , Hence the fibre forum wink
Standard User izools
(experienced) Sat 19-Jan-13 20:52:55
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: bobbyboyuk] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bobbyboyuk:
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
Sadly ADSL 2+ performance isn't a guide to FTTC.


ADSL2+ ? Im on FTTC , Hence the fibre forum wink


I think his comment was in relation to this post:

In reply to a post by arfster:
There was talk that a full implementation of vectoring might allow 50mbit at 1000 metres, and 100mbit with bonding.

Your line clearly isn't very good though - I am on adsl2+ at 1150 metres from the exchange and get about the same as you.

Have you done all the usual test stuff, disconnecting extension wiring etc?


_____________________________________________
BE Unlimited ¦ 7.4Mb 49dB Down ¦ 1.2Mb 32dB Up ¦ 3dB Fastpath ¦ Netgear DGND3700
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User dave2150
(experienced) Sun 20-Jan-13 01:10:56
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
How good are you at changing the laws of physics?

Even when/if profile 30 is rolled out it will not offer very much extra (if any) to those far away from the cabinet. Maybe a power increase or a new modem front end might improve the reception of low power signals but that is unlikely and even if it did the increase obtained would be small.


No need for sarcastic remarks, obviously the OP does not wish to bend the laws of physics. If he had posted a few years ago, unable to get adsl due to a long time, you would have no doubt given the same reply of 'How good are you at changing the laws of physics?' Then a few years alter, fttc is released and suddenly he can get broadband without changing the laws of physics.

As to the opening poster, Broadband is indeed improving in terms of fiber deployments. Fttc is the first baby step towards everyone getting FTTP in a few years. It's simply inevitable that this will happen given the broadband race so many countries are involved in.

Just wait it out and you will get a FTTP connection in the next few years. Even the most rural of locations will eventually have it too, it's simply a matter of time. Lets hope its within 5-10 years rather than 20 though laugh

My Broadband Speed Test
60db Attenuation
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Sun 20-Jan-13 01:16:39
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: dave2150] [link to this post]
 
I must admit I thought the same as you, I remember 56k modems, and people saying you can't go faster it's just not possible, roll forward 20 years and here we are.

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 10:06:07
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
I must admit I thought the same as you, I remember 56k modems, and people saying you can't go faster it's just not possible, roll forward 20 years and here we are.

Ah, when we had a 2Mbps leased line installed in the office (about 13 years ago IIRC), BT showed up with a bit of copper and everybody said, not possible, you need a fibre, 2Mbps over copper just doesn't happen. Well, it seemed to work... and of course not long after 2Mbps SDSL was available if anybody wanted the bandwidth without the cost of a leased line.
I must admit I was surprised at the time.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 20-Jan-13 12:35:01
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: dave2150] [link to this post]
 
my guess is mass market FTTP is at least 5 years away in this country unless a killer app suddenly surfaces.

Given BT's investment record, I dont think they would have invested in FTTC equipment with just a few years life span.

Of course we have FTTP on demand coming soon but that isnt mass market it will have very low takeup. Also that openreach say for FTTP on demand a survery is done before each order? is it possible they will routinely reject orders when distance is large from the aggregation point?

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Sun 20-Jan-13 13:06:46
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I think they would give an estimate based on the distance and known factors, if this is acceptable then a site survey would be done.

I think they will be inundated with requests, the majority which of course won't be progressed.

I'll certainly get a price.

Standard User eckiedoo
(regular) Sun 20-Jan-13 14:52:11
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Afternoon RONSKI

I remember and used Acoustic Couplers at 110 Baud, approximately 110 bps.

1200/75 Baud Down/Up was an improvement, then 300/300.

56 Kbps, running typically about 44 Kbps - WOW !!

Also in the early days of Mobile Phones, three were delivered to our company, as three separate sub-assemblies each, no instructions.

I tackled putting together the first, eventually turned out that the sub-assemblies were linked, so had to dis-assemble and re-assemble with the related parts.

Got it working on Voice, then assembled the other two.

They were also supposed to handle FAX and Dial-Up.

Eventually the supplier mentioned that these were separate numbers, so three phones, nine numbers, each needing individual registering and authorisation!

The first real use was from Portugal to Scotland, so another learning cycle.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 20-Jan-13 15:33:49
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
I remember 56k modems, and people saying you can't go faster it's just not possible
i think they were right, has anyone bettered 56k using audio frequencies on a voice line ?

At the time 128k was available via ISDN, but that was A Different Thing (tm) just like xDSL is.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 20-Jan-13 17:11:04
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Oh the joys of a teletype on an acoustic coupler in Manchester for driving online programming at a London bureau.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 20-Jan-13 17:36:01
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
I remember 56k modems, and people saying you can't go faster it's just not possible
i think they were right, has anyone bettered 56k using audio frequencies on a voice line ?

At the time 128k was available via ISDN, but that was A Different Thing (tm) just like xDSL is.

Within the PSTN (ie the switched telephony network), the digital exchanges that were installed in the 80's all converted voice signals to digital. The digital signal was 8 bits, sampled at 8kHz, resulting in 64,000 bps. This is the G.711 standard - and the entire digital switching technology was focussed on switching lumps of 64Kbps.

A voice-line modem that used the *switched* network couldn't hope to carry any more than that 64Kbps, ever - the data would be lost in the sampling - and must be quite smart to get over 32Kbps.

The basic rate ISDN specs (2B+D) carried 2 of these voice channels, which is where the 128Kbps comes from.

And yes - the primary rate ISDN circuits, carrying 30 voice channels (total, including overhead, 2Mbps) were fairly standard fare over copper in the 80's; I only ever came across it in coax, but it could be carried over a 4-wire copper interface (ie 2 pairs).
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 20-Jan-13 17:41:58
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Re: Any hope for long fttc lines ?


[re: dave2150] [link to this post]
 
The techniques behind ADSL and VDSL have been around for a long, long time. There were systems providing, what at the time were, very high bandwidth connections in the 1980s, but the problem was the size of the terminal equipment and both ends. Most of it was hardware rather than software driven. The belief now is that the limits of copper pairs are now being hit or are very close. Without changing te laws of physics, getting a certain frequency signal any further along a copper pair is unlikely.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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