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Standard User Drumhum
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 01:25:41
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Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[link to this post]
 
About three weeks ago I moved to fttc. I'm with Plusnet.
Prior to fibre bb I had a stable sync of >6Mbps often 7. On adslmax, I'm a significant distance from the exchange too (about a mile as "the crow flies" - so far more as "the cable runs")

It was estimated I would get 37Mbps before I moved to fibre on the online checkers and this was also the speed that Plusnet still have on my account from their estimate "test" prior to installation.

Now I'm on fibre I seem to be getting less than 15Mbps download speeds. When installed, the engineer noted a sync of 16 and he walked away saying it would improve over the next ten days (groan). It's never improved or changed much at all really.

BT speedtester says my sync speed is currently 15.2Mbps. I've seen download speedtesters showing sub 10meg speeds, but mostly I get around 12 to 14Mbps.
I am less than 500m from my cab. Even allowing for a daft route my line can't be more than 650m or so to the green box.

Surely I can expect better speeds than this, considering my line length?
(If it matters I'm supposed to be on plusnets 80/20 fibre broadband.)

Something must be wrong somewhere, no?

Tia
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Mon 11-Mar-13 07:24:40
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
I think your line length estimate is way off, you do have a problem been quit a bit below the estimate but I think a estimate of 37 is too low for a 500m line.

Dont think there is no crazy routing on BTs network either, eg. my line length to exchange is over 4km yet by road its under 2.5km. To cabinet under 200m, yet attenuation suggests I am nearer 400m.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 11:09:12
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Drumhum:
When installed, the engineer noted a sync of 16 and he walked away saying it would improve over the next ten days (groan).

As you say, groan. FTTC speeds rarely increase after installation, they usually decrease if anything and the 10 days is pure fiction. I suggest you raise a fault on the Plusnet portal and post the ticket number in the Broadband and Routers section of the Community Forums.

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST

Edited by kasg (Mon 11-Mar-13 12:08:08)


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Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Mar-13 11:53:52
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Drumhum:
Something must be wrong somewhere, no?
There have been several cases of people's lines not going to the obvious cabinet. There's a chap on IDNet whose line goes 1km to a cab instead of 300m. Is your property significantly older or younger than those closer to the cab?

Although the BT availability checker does now tell you the cab number.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 11-Mar-13 11:54:53)

Standard User Drumhum
(member) Tue 12-Mar-13 03:04:53
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Thank you all for the useful replies.

I'm sure of the location of my cab. I've asked BT engineers numerous times.

There is another cab nearer to me and I reckon I am on the fringes of my cab area. In fact I think the house opposite me and next door but one is on the closer cab.

My house is average in age to surrounding houses. I have a town house. There is no new developments or estates to confuse matters. It's all late 1800's early 1900's housing round here.

I've already had an engineer out. Maybe i should have mentioned this, but it such a dead loss...

His role was to "increase my speed" (!). As far as I can tell he tested at the cab and found the full speed present there (at 40MBps as Plusnet had erroneously placed me on the lower speed package - I'm paying for the unlimited BB). He then tested at the top of my pole and said it was the same speed as I had at my faceplate. From this he concluded the wiring from pole to home was immaculate. So he seems to have confirmed what I was getting. He admitted it seemed a bit on the low side but within spec. I asked what might be pulling the speed down and he said it could be anything. i asked if there was aluminium in the line (which i am sure i have asked in past times and its all copper) and he said theres no way of knowing. He said he had performed some tests and they all showed "green" and that the line showed no faults. I asked if he could measure any line characteristics and he said no. I asked if he could find out my attenuation and he said no. I asked what my line length was and he said it was anyone's guess- he had no way of knowing. I asked if he had any way of measuring the electrical performance or parameters of my line and he said he didn't. I asked how he could make any sort of diagnostics without such info and he said it didn't work like that.

He was around for most of the morning, said he has tried everything he can think of and would I sign his book. I said I didn't feel like we had learned anything from this process but he said he had tried everything, so what could I do but sign his book. I then read in the report he sent to Plusnet that I was happy with the outcome.

Sheesh.

I see this might be yet another broadband battle (aren't they always?)

I shall contest the findings and push the matter further with PN. I'll do my best to conduct the case on the community forums so that I get a tech support op with clout.

I note tonight my speeds were down to 5Mbps, BT speed test saying I have a proper problem etc.. I disconnected my router from the modem for a while. ( no power cycle) and then speed went back up to a shade below 15Mbps. Current sync is 15005kps. All very odd to me.

Any advice is welcome!
(Which i guess includes, give up now - there is more to life)
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Tue 12-Mar-13 09:01:32
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Drumhum:
Any advice is welcome!
(Which i guess includes, give up now - there is more to life)
Nah. Several of us have had experience of intractable problems and we understand. Unfortunately getting these things fixed is often far more painful than it should be. BT in particular seem to have a very wide and flexible definition of 'it's working'.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 12-Mar-13 09:12:09
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
if google loads it works wink

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Tue 12-Mar-13 10:24:00
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
I would keep pushing, 15Mbps on a 500 meter line surely can't be classed as working.

Didn't somebody mention that if your speed is less than half the estimate then it's considered a fault?

Do you have an HG612 modem, if so you could unlock it and start monitoring the stats to see what's going on, it may help.

If all else fails you can raise a CEO level complaint which may help.

Standard User Drumhum
(member) Tue 12-Mar-13 22:18:05
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
Didn't somebody mention that if your speed is less than half the estimate then it's considered a fault?


That is very useful to know. Its funny how PN tech support don't mention this isn't it? - or the OpenReach engineer for that matter.

I've got an ECI modem B-FOCus v-2FUb/r Rev.B
I've looked up unlocking it. Getting my soldering iron out is a step too far - on principle. We'll be laying out our own fibre next!

Its very heartening to hear confirmation that things do not seem right. Thank you (all).

I shall take a deep breath and get myself off to plusnet pages.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Tue 12-Mar-13 22:28:02
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
You can quite often pick up the HG612 modems on ebay, and they are very easy to unlock, and will yield quite a bit of information.

The sort of speed you're getting would need either an extremely bad (read faulty line) or a line about 1500 meters long.

I take it you get no noise on the telephone?

My speed is well down for my line length, I'm on a 450 meter line and only get around 40 to 45Mbps, so that shows just how bad yours is. 500 meters should be around 40 to 60Mbps in my experience.

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 13-Mar-13 05:41:10
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
I get 71mbit on a 400m line wink and did intially have 110 attainable. Plus I know 85-90 is possible, but something somewhere is causing bad interference, crosstalk probably.

So both your speeds are dire in my opinion and I refuse to believe the OPS line is 500m, no chance unless the cable is string like ali.

eg. see this graph to see the source was momentarily off yesterday.

attainable 12 march, 85 spike

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 13-Mar-13 05:43:54)

Standard User aquiss
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 13-Mar-13 09:03:43
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
Didn't somebody mention that if your speed is less than half the estimate then it's considered a fault?


Who mentioned that or is this just hearsay? Either way, it's bad, incorrect advice.

Lets be clear here, the OP is not reporting a speed issue, but instead reporting a sync issue, which are different things.

Martin Pitt
Aquiss Limited
http://www.aquiss.net

Unlimited Family Broadband Packages : http://www.aquiss.net/broadband-unlimited.php
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Wed 13-Mar-13 10:14:25
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: aquiss] [link to this post]
 
I don't know who posted it, but I'm pretty sure it was on these forums, most likely in the fibre section as that's the only section I normally read.

And it wasn't advice, it was just a question, hence the wording and the question mark.

And in my opinion OR really need to get their act together and come up with some acceptable performance criteria depending on distance from cab, the current criteria is useless, and just excuses OR from fixing poor quality lines, which users have to pay the same to get a substandard service as people who get a first class service at the same or further distance.

Rant over.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 13-Mar-13 10:46:42
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: aquiss] [link to this post]
 
To be fair, Martin, I think he is reporting both.

The installation engineer told him he had a 16Mbps sync.

Since then he thinks the second engineer checked at the cabinet and found 40Mbps. This second engineer then told him the speed at the pole was the same as at the faceplate, but this speed is not stated.

Later still the product was been changed from 40/2 to 80/20, and he is seeing speeds around 15Mbps, but we are not aware of the sync. Indications are an IP Profile of 15.2Mbps, equating to 15.7Mbps sync.

Throughput as low as 5Mbps is being experienced. That is unlikely to be ISP-related - reinforcing the line fault probability.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 13-Mar-13 11:56:17
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
And in my opinion OR really need to get their act together and come up with some acceptable performance criteria depending on distance from cab, the current criteria is useless, and just excuses OR from fixing poor quality lines, which users have to pay the same to get a substandard service as people who get a first class service at the same or further distance.
And I think BTw need more visibility as well. I have a recurring fault that my ISP says isn't them (and it doesn't seem likely since it seems isolated to me) and doesn't seem to be a line fault because my modem remains connected throughout and there is no change in errored seconds or anything else. The fault can be cleared eventually by rebooting my router. Unfortunately guess what happened when my ISP talked to BT and made this all clear and asked for a throughput investigation? An SFI came out and all he managed to do was saddle me with interleaving for 14 days.

I think the whole system needs a shake up. We have highly flexible criteria for fault finding(*) and we have invisible communications within BT meaning that no-on affected by a fault actually has much real control over those responsible for investigating and fixing it.

(*)Like in my case anything between 16Mb/s and 72Mb/s is considered to be normal. It's ridiculous. There should be some kind of fault threshold based off your typical connection speed. Something like 'Anything less than 75% of the average connection speed over the last two weeks is a fault if it continues for 48 hours or more'.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Drumhum
(member) Wed 13-Mar-13 21:50:08
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Just to be clear...
Install engineer said I had around 16Mbps sync, though he may have said "speed" - It wasn't me that spoke to him. I assumed "sync" because my download speeds from various testers were from 12 to 15Mbps. I don't think I have ever seen speeds over 16Mbps.

The 2nd engineer told me he had been to the cab and measured the full 40Mbps. I was on a 40/10 product (note 10 not 2, if this matters) at the time.
The 2nd engineer measured the speed at the pole and the faceplate and said they were the same, which at the time was around 16Mbps. His report suggested slightly higher speeds but I don't think I've seen things ever go above 16. - it is usually 12 to 14. In fact I feel the report is rather exaggerated in the positive sense. (I am sure I would never have said "between 15 and 20"). I've pasted his report below for interest.

Occasionally I see very slow speeds of maybe 5megs or so but it feels like a glitch and usually I have a stable 12 to 14.

currently my IP profile (from BT speed test) is 14.95Mbps and has been for over two days. the speed today was measured at 14.65Mbps



Engineers notes : Spoke to Mr O'Carroll on RA. Synch speeds of 4.9/15.6mbs at NTE. PQT/Eclipse test all good. No wiring issues identified. DLM reset by SMC speeds still same. Connected spare 80mbs circuit to D side same speed results at NTE. Checked speeds at DP same. Contacted Jackie in SMC who advised me that the line had been stable for several days at speeds between 15-20mbs and that no issues could be identified and suggested the line may only be capable of these speeds. She advised me to close FNF and refer EU back to his CP. Informed Mr O'Carroll of situation who was happy to do this. On completion line synched at 4.9/17mbs. Signature obtained.

WP Profile: Generic Speed 16000 No Time Out

Estimated Speed: 37100
Upstream: 6100

Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0000
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found .
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 17.3 Mbps
Upstream Speed 4.6 Mbps
Appointment Required N
Fault Target Fix Time
Fault Report Advised N
Profile Name 10M-20M Downstream, Interleaving Off - 3M-6M Upstream, Interleaving Off
Time Stamp 2013-03-06T03:45:00
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 14-Mar-13 00:18:05
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
That's just appalling frown frown !

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 14-Mar-13 08:46:30
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
agreed, they need to do better than the "best efforts" policy in place now.

My opinion is either day 1 sync needs to be guarantueed for contract duration, or estimated speed should be. I would also agree with the idea of a mean average been used.

No chance of this tho as openreach will be well aware of huge variances on cable diameter, type, twists per inch, quality etc.

My line continues to decline, for large parts of the day now I hover around 68 attainable. The occasional respites where it shoots up to nearly 90mbit are very rare, that one I posted earlier was the first one after the previous one about 2 weeks ago.

Last time my attainable went up by a fair bit I went to the cabinet and a engineer was there telling me he had disconnected a line following 3 complaints, I was the 4th, yet he refused to keep it disconnected or move that user to a less obstructive pair. I asked him if he had checked joints etc. he said policy is to check end user's modem, cabinet and if nothing found then thats it. After that point he sent me on my way refusing to say anything else.

My install engineer continues to tell me I have it good and apparently some guy who started off with a 14mbit sync now has no service, due to crosstalk wiping it all out, and another who started around 40 is now getting under 20mbit.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 14-Mar-13 08:58:10)

Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Thu 14-Mar-13 10:35:05
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I asked him if he had checked joints etc. he said policy is to check end user's modem, cabinet and if nothing found then thats it.


That's more than they did when they checked mine, he wasn't allowed to check the cabinet, not even change the port, or swap my pairs, complete waste of time to be honest!

Standard User Drumhum
(member) Thu 14-Mar-13 22:19:03
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: aquiss] [link to this post]
 
RE. 50% of the estimated speed equals a fault.

It seems that 50% of estimated speed level is not exactly considered a fault a such, but it must be considered as an unusual outcome. Otherwise Open Reach would not be promising this (taken from their website)...

What if the speed predicted for an 80/20 line does not live up to expectations?
An end user may cease their GEA over FTTC service within 90 days of installation if the line does not achieve at least 50% of the speed predicted at the point of sale. We will provide a refund of the standard connection, rental and cease charges and no early termination charge will apply. This refund will only be provided if we were given the opportunity, either at installation, or through a fault investigation, to correct any line conditions which might have caused the performance issue. This policy applies to all GEA over FTTC lines and more information can be found in section 3.10.1 of the GEA over FTTC product description.
Standard User Drumhum
(member) Thu 14-Mar-13 23:01:29
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
More interesting facts emerging after a bit of research.

If your sync speed drops to below 15Mbps, allowing for time to rule out a glitch (my words!) then your ISP (or CP as they call em now) may report a fault..

From "Conditions for Generic Ethernet Access Schedule 2B GEA-FTTC Service"
Open reach PDF

If the downstream speed on a line falls below 15Mbit/s at any time after a suitable period is allowed for stabilisation following provision of the GEA-FTTC Service, the Communications Provider may report a fault.


This is obviously for those whose estimated speeds were above 15Mbps in the first place.

It also seems that on installation, if the engineer sees a sync of less than 15Mbps then he will revert back to the old ADSL service. (Unless the customer was told it would be slow and has knowingly ordered FTTC at <15Mbps).

I hope you are all following this smile
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 15-Mar-13 05:55:21
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
the problem is, the user is bound by the retail isp's t&c's not openreach.

Have you seen that clause in any retail isp's?

I also think 50% is a huge window of variability.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 15-Mar-13 05:57:31)

Standard User peterhoult
(newbie) Sat 16-Mar-13 02:16:27
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: Drumhum] [link to this post]
 
[Moderator please move this post to somewhere more appropriate if I have posted in the wrong topic]

I "went live" on Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Broadband [with "Pro" add-on] yesterday.

I was quoted a speed of 51Mbps Download and 19Mbps Upload when signing up for the service.

The engineer said the line was "testing at" 76Mbps Down and 18.5Mbps Up yesterday. The Plusnet tech support also told me that the line was showing the same earlier this evening.

I have tried the Speed test on this site and it says I have an average speed of 26Mbps Down and 17Mbps Up. I have tried it both on my wireless enabled 54Mbps laptop and on the 100Mbps LAN-connected PC connected via Eth. cable directly to the router and the speed result is the same.

Plusnet tech. support said I'd never get full speed on my laptop due to the Wireless Card only being 54Mbps (I thought it would at least go up to the speed of the card NOT 1/3 of it!)

I have a WNR2200 Netgear router using the newest firmware. Should I be worried about not getting higher speeds in the speed tests?

Incidentally, I tried the speed test with the Netgear WNCE2001 Wireless To Wired adaptor connected to my laptop and I did get approx. 38Mbps Down 14Mbps Up, but it's certainly not the 51Mbps (Or 76Mbps!) Down and 19Mbps Up that I was promised! (The Upload speed isn't really an issue with me, I regard this as within acceptable limits).

On the USwitch speed test site it says I am 839 metres away from the exchange and that average speeds are 100Mbps Down and 33Mbps Up.

Edited by peterhoult (Sat 16-Mar-13 02:30:15)

Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 16-Mar-13 04:53:07
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: peterhoult] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet tech support are right here - a Wireless G connection (ie 54Mbps) will tend to limit around 25-27Mbps. Although Wireless G is sold as 54Mbps, that value comes from adding together both up- and down-stream, and include all overhead. It is also a shared medium, so you are dependent on what is going on around you, and easily reduced by both distance, interference, and other devices.

If you get the same speed when plugged in to ethernet, you should be suspicious that you are actually using the wired connection - make sure that wireless has been fully disabled!

On top of that, you might find that your speed is being limited by either the Windows OS (especially older XP versions) or the browser you are using.

If you want an idea of what the sync speed actually is, use the BT wholesale speedtester, run the test, then choose the "Further Diagnostics".

That will then display your IP Profile value. The downstream value will be about 3% lower than your actual sync speed. The upstream will probably say 20,000 no matter what the actual sync speed is.

If the speedtester on here doesn't give good results, you can always try the one at Speedtest.net too.

BTW 1 - you *almost certainly* don't need the Pro add-on alongside the unlimited fibre package.

BTW 2 - the distance to exchange is irrelevent for fibre, it is only the distance to the cabinet that matters.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Mar-13 12:08:33
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Re: Less than 15Mbps on a 500m line?


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
BTW 1 - you *almost certainly* don't need the Pro add-on alongside the unlimited fibre package.

BTW 2 - the distance to exchange is irrelevent for fibre, it is only the distance to the cabinet that matters.
BTW 3 - "On the USwitch speed test site it says I am 839 metres away from the exchange and that average speeds are 100Mbps Down and 33Mbps Up"
is obvious tripe.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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