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Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Wed 13-Mar-13 12:08:02
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Reins issue and FTTC


[link to this post]
 
Hello everyone,

Very soon I hope that my home will be able to connect to a FTTC service. I intend to join Plusnet after good reviews from a friend. Before I sign up, I would like to know about how reins issues affect fibre broadband.

I live in a flat, there is a reins issue caused by the lift that runs through the block. My current sky broadband service has to have a noise margin of between 8 to 11db so that when the lift is in use the line is not disconnected each time (movement of the lift causes the noise to drop and if this drop causes the noise to drop below 1db the line drops). There is nothing more that can be done to address the reins issue so my question to you all is thus;

With fibre broadband can the noise be set just as I have now?
If fibre doesn't involve noise, is there something else that can be adjusted to prevent the reins issue affecting the line?
if i sign up with plusnet is there a team I can talk to who can adjust my link so that it can be resistant against the reins issue? Fyi, Sky have a team who do this and helped implement the fix above.

Forgive my first time post, not sure if anyone has asked this before as I couldn't find any posts on the subject. Any advise would be most welcome smile

many thanks

James
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 13-Mar-13 12:10:33
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
The DLM system that runs on FTTC services will increase the target noise margin to compensate for issues, but as the frequency range is very different the lift may not be an issue - or it may be worse.

There is little the ISP can do, the systems are pretty much in the control of Openreach, but they do ere on the stability side of the fence, so likely to slow you down if their is an issue rather than leave a flapping line.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Wed 13-Mar-13 15:56:09
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks @MrSaffron for your reply. i don't mind if the ISP want to reduce the speed down (this is what sky currently do). Stability is my biggest requirement.

In the experience of the forum users, will fibre make a reins issue like this worse than it is now? I don't want to move out of the frying pan and into the fire so to speak by moving from a (slow) 4mb broadband to say 40mb fibre. Currently I disconnect once or twice a day, normally in the middle of the night. I wouldn't want to move to fibre if that was going to lead to more disconnections each day.


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Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 13-Mar-13 17:55:07
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
At a guess all the phone lines come in to a small room, possibly in a 50 pair cable and from there distributed to te various flats through a service duct - am I correct.

If so, is there any way that you could get the modems installed at that point and then have you phone fed on the existing wiring and an Ethernet cable run from the modem to your flat where the router would be?

I came across something like this an a mixed business/residential block and it worked well.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 13-Mar-13 17:58:23
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
With a spectrum analyser running in the flat to analyse the noise environment it is almost impossible to say.

If you have a short wave battery radio that can use the 1 to 17 MHz bands you might see if you get lots of interference when the lift is operating.

It is a very much try it and see, or spend money to get someone who understands RF and DSL to look at it, or try the shortwave self research.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Wed 13-Mar-13 18:24:49
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
@MrSaffron, BT have already visited with equipment connected to the phone line to analyze the noise. There was also a lift engineer with him as well as my shared ownership landlord. 3 hours of tests showed it was an electrical surge from that lift that was causing my line and others in the block to drop. A larger resistor was fitted and since then the drops have been 1 or 2 a day rather than hourly drops I was getting.

I appreciate its try and see, just hoping that there might be someone out there who has had a similar situation. I don't mind if the experience on fiber is the same as it on broadband, I just dont want it to be worse!

With regard to the lines, we (the residents of the block) looked into having the lines moved. I was told that the phone lines come into the building through a network that also houses the power lines for the lift and so cannot be separated.

Ty again for your replies, all advice and comment will be very welcome smile
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Wed 13-Mar-13 23:29:29
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
Any idea what the estimate for FTTC speed will be ?

If it's a nice high estimate (ie a short line to the cab) then there should be snr 'in hand' on a 40/10 circuit, this may well be enough to tolerate the intermittent REIN issue.

Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Thu 14-Mar-13 07:01:03
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
@Zarjaz the estimate speed is 63mb down and 20mb up. I have friends on the other side of town who already have it and they get around 40mb down and 10mb up. I would be more than happy with that smile
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 14-Mar-13 07:44:06
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
unless the REIN is extreme you should tolerate it easily I think on a 40/10 service.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Thu 14-Mar-13 07:53:58
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
@Chrysalis I'm not sure if its extreme as i've not had one until I moved here. On average I drop about once or twice a day depending on how much the lift is used. Not sure if thats a bad problem or not, its just annoying. As long as fibre doesn't make that worse I can live with that smile
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Thu 14-Mar-13 10:22:27
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gingerjumper:
I was told that the phone lines come into the building through a network that also houses the power lines for the lift and so cannot be separated.

That doesn't surprise me, when our workshop was built the telephone cable to the workshop was run in with the 3 phase cables, fortunately the broadband is connected before this.

In reply to a post by gingerjumper:
On average I drop about once or twice a day depending on how much the lift is used.

Sounds like an "Out of order" sign is required for the lift. wink

Standard User gingerjumper
(newbie) Thu 14-Mar-13 14:37:27
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
@ronski a few of my fellow tenants have discussed doing a 'big bang theory' and the lift having a wee accident....was just a joke though smile

Thank you for all the advice, it sounds like its going to be a case of suck it and see. If anyone from Plusnet reads this I would like to know if there any teams put there who could help me should I find I get disconnected a lot?
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 14-Mar-13 14:49:22
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The DLM system that runs on FTTC services will increase the target noise margin to compensate for issues


DLM used by FTTC does *not* alter the target noise margin, ever. It uses different tactics. This is a different variant of DLM, and is considered more "modern" and more suitable nowadays - but how it will work in your case will be interesting. Sorry - I can't remember the names of the two variants at the mo.

The first interventions usually involve turning on FEC and interleaving. If these aren't enough, then the amount of FEC can be increased, and the "spread" of interleaving can be increased.

If these interventions still aren't enough, then DLM reverts to the next stage... which is to limit the sync speed, also known as "banding".

That last type of intervention will reduce your sync speed directly - and as a consequence, your SNR margin will lift.

If this banding isn't enough, then you may get banded to a lower speed, with higher consequent margins.

Openreach don't allow ISPs to alter margins, or to reset the DLM system. They *do* advertise that the line can be set to one of 3 "stability" levels - which alters the threshold values used by DLM when deciding whether to intervene. However, I haven't come across a single case where this setting has been altered - or where an ISP has even indicated that they can make this change.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 14-Mar-13 17:26:04
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
I have read (but cant remember where) that zen use the speed (gamer) profiles.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 14-Mar-13 17:44:00
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Good to know that. I've not seen it mentioned anywhere though...
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 15-Mar-13 09:54:27
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Re: Reins issue and FTTC


[re: gingerjumper] [link to this post]
 
Even if you do not get the lines moved, getting the modems closer to to where the lines enter the building will reduce some of the received RFI.

As the lift moves there will be a large pulse and you have a long aerial to pick it up. Shorten the aerial and less will be received ...

Every little may help!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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