FTTPoD availability/coverage

Does anyone know whether the cabinet for your address will have to be FTTC enabled to be able to order FTTPoD? I look after a couple of sites where the current lines are fed from non-enabled cabs but I know that other cabs very close by have fttc twins. In one case , if I read it correctly, the plant map I saw suggested that there is ducting directly between our cab and one I know to be enabled less than 150m away.

It is my understanding that the cab the line is fed from would have to be FTTC enabled to allow an FTToD.

The most likely state of affairs will be that BT will allow you to order FTTPoD if their database thinks you can - and it will be nigh-on impossible if the database says otherwise.

The data in the database will dictate things *so* much more than, say, the presence of linking ducting in the ground.

So it depends on how BT populate their database in the first place.

If they go with the current FTTC status of the cabinet (as they have said so far), then you are probably out of luck.

If they go for a system that checks for the distance/accessibility of the nearest aggregation node to the cabinet (which is what your new fibre will actually connect to), they might be a little more flexible.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

If they go for a system that checks for the distance/accessibility of the nearest aggregation node to the cabinet (which is what your new fibre will actually connect to), they might be a little more flexible.

This way makes sense to me, surely BT have the sense (perhaps not) to quote for all customers, regardless of whether their cabinet is enabled or not, surely it is the presence of an aggregation node that should determine availability.

I guess we'll find out soon enough when it launches.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It is my understanding that the cab the line is fed from would have to be FTTC enabled to allow an FTToD.

Yep had that confirmed from two different guys in the hierarchy at Openreach. Even if the aggregation node is outside they won't run FTTPoD from it if you aren't connected to an enabled cabinet.

I guess they don't want to break network segmentation.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

I guess they don't want to break network segmentation.

I can certainly see why they'd want the new fibre network to be segmented effectively, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a direct 1:1 overlay of the copper segmentation.

Certainly there is no need for the new fibre installation to *have* to go via the cabinet, and there is no need for the network topology to have to look identical.

For example: I don't know what the deployment plan looks like for the chain of aggregation nodes as they snake out from an exchange - but one document I saw from BT suggested that they should add the extra fibre, to change the topology from a tree/branch structure rooted at a single exchange into double-ended chains that ran from exchange to exchange, giving backup routing to the core network.

Either way, there is certainly no need to assume that there is a 1:1 correlation of aggregation node to PCP.

However, I am perfectly prepared to believe that the restriction is in place for ease of administration

They've already broken the segmentation by feeding many FTTC cabinets from a different exchange from the PCP. Maybe even in the case of the two users currently asking this question.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

They've already broken the segmentation by feeding many FTTC cabinets from a different exchange from the PCP. Maybe even in the case of the two users currently asking this question.

As far as I'm aware the fibre cabinets go back to their 'home' exchange, the same one as the PCP, then from there go on existing fibre routes to the handover exchange?

I would welcome correction but that was my understanding.

On thinking about it, that seems highly likely. Dammit!

As far as I'm aware the fibre cabinets go back to their 'home' exchange, the same one as the PCP, then from there go on existing fibre routes to the handover exchange?

I would welcome correction but that was my understanding.

Well I am 100% sure that the fibre feeding DSLAM cabs in Eversley goes straight back to Crowthorne.

seems BT going bonkers in desperation to not break D side routing.

So if I as a customer ordered FTTP knowing I have a cabinet outside my window across the road, and the ducting goes right by my front, BT will likely try to provide it from my FTTC cabinet at 8x the distance (400m vs 50m) and charge me accordingly.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

As far as I'm aware the fibre cabinets go back to their 'home' exchange, the same one as the PCP, then from there go on existing fibre routes to the handover exchange?

No direct evidence, but...

When my exchange was enabled (which, IIRC is a child to another local, but not neighbouring, exchange), there were 2 or 3 cabinets that got deferred for a long time.

Those cabinets were right on the boundary to a different exchange, and looked to be timed to go live alongside *that* exchange.

Co-incidence, or...?

Thanks all. I guess I'll just have to wait and try ordering but not get my hopes up...

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

So if I as a customer ordered FTTP knowing I have a cabinet outside my window across the road, and the ducting goes right by my front, BT will likely try to provide it from my FTTC cabinet at 8x the distance (400m vs 50m) and charge me accordingly.

FTTPoD is not provided from the FTTC cabinet. It is fed from an aggregation point that feeds that cabinet. Whatever that means .

I know, but surely you can understand what I meant.

Its likely the aggregation point that feeds a cabinet is close to that cabinet.

so the aggregation point for the cabinet across the road from me in all probability is closer than the one that serves my FTTC cabinet.

Also if the D side takes a indirect route does fiber follow the same indirect route because my FTTC distance direct is 200m not 400m.

Basically as a customer do I pay for BTs incompetance on FTTPoD.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 18-Mar-13 08:19:32)

You would pay for what was actually installed after a planner figured out a route and provided an estimate. If the aggregation node happens to be in the road near to you then the cabinet location doesn't matter beyond providing eligibility from what people are saying above ?

So its across the road, do you know if there is ducting going across the road?

If the eventual aim is for everyone on FTTP (which it will be eventually) then having people on the PON kit at a different aggregation.

Of course we could all ask Virgin Media who are often literally just feet from a home and refuse to connect people at all.

In all likelihood there will be a single AN serving FTTC and HTTP in a given exchange area

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

So its across the road, do you know if there is ducting going across the road?

If the eventual aim is for everyone on FTTP (which it will be eventually) then having people on the PON kit at a different aggregation.

Of course we could all ask Virgin Media who are often literally just feet from a home and refuse to connect people at all.

there is as not only did I watch them feed the fiber (which I posted about on here) I also chatted to the guys who were installing the fiber.

This isnt about VM its about BT, and thats a sloppy reply andrew.

End of the day BT can choose to do a longer fiber route if I order FTTP but I wont be paying them for it, I will pay them for the distance from the nearest aggregation point.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 18-Mar-13 10:36:57)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Well I am 100% sure that the fibre feeding DSLAM cabs in Eversley goes straight back to Crowthorne.

I thank you, Sir, for the correction.

As far as I'm aware the fibre cabinets go back to their 'home' exchange, the same one as the PCP, then from there go on existing fibre routes to the handover exchange?

Seems likely that it would follow existing ducting routes ? may not get involved with the 'home' exchange but likely to follow the pipework to there and then on to the handover exchange.

In reply to a post by Ribble:

In all likelihood there will be a single AN serving FTTC and HTTP in a given exchange area

the various documents and reports I have read that doesnt seem to be the case. Each FTTC enabled cabinet seems to have its own aggregation point. which yes would serve both the cabinet and FTTP enabled customers.

And if Openreach refuse then that is their right.

Openreach is a big bad evil corporate who cares very little about us individuals, hence the mention of Virgin Media who also are known for sticking to a network delivery plan.

Who knows Openreach might surprise you

correct but then they lose takeup, revenue etc. thats not good business.

I dont think I will be alone in not wanting to pay for BT to take the long route on the line, when they are charging by the metre.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 18-Mar-13 11:08:02)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

when they are charging by the meter.

That's what meters are for.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

the various documents and reports I have read that doesnt seem to be the case. Each FTTC enabled cabinet seems to have its own aggregation point. which yes would serve both the cabinet and FTTP enabled customers.

Rather defeats the purpose of an aggregation node if it's only serving a single cabinet, doesn't it?

These nodes aggregate multiple fibre cabinets / areas in a kind of trunk and branches arrangement. They don't map to individual cabinets, that would make them pointless.

ok so if there is one node serving multiple cabinets why is it often quoted as distance from cabinet?

when if one node serves many cabinets then the cabinet can be quite far away from the node.

I accept what you saying, just saying what led me to that conclusion.

In terms of cost of installation, apparently each order is evaluated individually, as a customer I would expect to see the report of why i would cost X amount and if the cable routing isnt direct I would expect to hear a good reason why, so if there was a technical reason they couldnt do it or perhaps it actually is more expensive to go direct I would accept that, the bit I have an issue with is if it was longer simply due to policy.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

ok so if there is one node serving multiple cabinets why is it often quoted as distance from cabinet?

Why is what quoted as distance from the cabinet?

The use of the word node is confusing in this context. A node is normally an active point, whereas an aggregation point I see as a dumb cable splitter.

Because people are making assumptions and complaining about a system before it has fully launched

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The use of the word node is confusing in this context. A node is normally an active point, whereas an aggregation point I see as a dumb cable splitter.

Openreach call them aggregation nodes.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-...

Useful that. It also shows a splitter node as the next step towards the customer.

I've no objection to "qualifying description" nodes, but the simple word itself is confusing. In this case even more so than I realised .

It's about time they decided to call exchanges some sort of node . After all, most now contain Multiservice Access Nodes. I wonder if anyone has any suggestions.

You need that other splitter node and the smaller one that is the manifold.

You have a manifold between for 8 to 12 customers (depending on size used)
You have a 32 way splitter before that to split out the PON wavelengths to feed multiple manifolds
Aggregation node is at the simple level a device that takes the feed from multiple splitters
Handover Node (exchange) where the fibre is linked to the various wholesale providers.

So feeding one customer from an aggregation node would mean a tray gets used, that would otherwise be feeding perhaps a cabinet full of customers. In short even with the agg node near you the architecture still requires a splitter and manifold.

The Point to Point architecture would be very different of course, with a dedicated fibre per customer from handover node to the premise.

Edited by MrSaffron (Mon 18-Mar-13 13:46:03)

perhaps we need a song

the aggregation node feeds the splitter nodes that feed the fibre DPs that feed the fibre to the ONTs.

I'm not sure there's any wavelength issues involved in the splitter, its just a 1 to N optical split (passive) isn't it ?

ok another question.

Since cabinets do not have their own "aggregation nodes", why does one need to be on a FTTC enabled cabinet, rather than just in a "aggregation node" area?

Probably because it acts as a very simple and easy to manage filter to restrict enquires to areas where the pre-requisite network has been built.

Also the network build is on going so adding fibre tubing for you and the other 7 or 11 houses that could share same manifold might fill ducting in a less optimal fashion.

Even if the agg node is in your doorstep, Openreach would still want to install a splitter and manifold.

Fibre on demand is not a custom build programme, but more a way of Openreach building a full FTTP network bit by bit, with those most keen to have it underwriting some of the cost, i.e. their share thus reducing the risk to an acceptable level to shareholders.

They might surprise you, but at the beginning of the roll-out if you do not fit the standard model I doubt you will see any leeway

yes it will be interesting to see if openreach are flexible.

When our cabinet was having its fibre connected last April I spotted the engineers with the 'manifold' stuck up on supports coming out of the adjacent manhole cover to the cabinet whilst they connected in the fibre. It's in an 'extra big' pit with two covers.

I may consider FTTPoD if I am feeling flush later this year, if only to replace this darn copper line which keeps developing intermittent HR Dis faults, and causing my FTTC connection to resynch whenever the phone rings. BT of course cannot detect a fault and threaten a £100 charge if they can't find a problem. As it's so intermittent I can't risk it.

Manifold? Small black object like the one on the left of this pole in Cornwall
http://blog.thinkbroadband.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

Or a grey set of trays, possibly hidden inside a water proof black container around 45cm long and 25cm diameter

Likely a fibre node on MOBRA arm

You mean http://www.farina1.com/fibre/wgc_media/source/IMG_44...

I think he means an aggregation node.?

http://www.mkbag.org/_/rsrc/1355237112458/news/btbeg...

The ones with yellow red and white trays are the FTTP splitters. AFAIK.

Please feel free to correct me.

Regards,


Gareth

Could be any of them, but poster now has the pictures to confirm

This is not true anymore, I was quoted £1,600.00 to be connected by Virgin, we are at the end of a street where most houses are connected. As part of the deal I had to do the ductwork on bit of private road myself.

I was accepted and was part of the FTTPonD trial phase 1, but after sightings of work being carried out locally to our house and on the route to the cab, and several update emails confirming progress. I eventually(several months later) got an email saying that Openreach would not be connecting me as part of the trail, as it was too expensive.

Will be interesting to see if now I will be excluded from FTTPonD or I will be given a huge quote way above the distance band costs I have seen on this forum.

I currently have FTTC and about 1.6km away.