FTTP/H aka line rental question? attention of andrew

right i think i know the answer to this but was wondering if Andrew could clarify this basically was wondering when fttp hits everywhere as some people don't have a need for a phone and have a laid fibre to home will we get hit with the dreaded line rental which only ever seems to go up every so often.

also if this is the case which i suspect we will to 'maintain' there free supply of income, why do they not offer to sell you the line and pay for when it does go wrong like a car breaks down you goto the garage, put in its most simplest form.

Because atm seems you have to pay at whatever they dictate (is it cost against %of profit they are required to make even if they have a more reduced market e.g. people can't afford or people switch to virgin, so the bills have to go up?) the price they set some suppliers let you pay year in advance which seems to save you a £5 a month but how is that worked out is it openreach pricing or the re-suppliers.

and yes i know fibre costs are huge against copper i just begrudge paying huge proportionate line rental when actual broadband cost is half the line rental e.g. line rental £14.50 against £7.50 broadband supply
surely this huge inbalance of charges needs looking at maybe by office of fair trading or am i being unfair here and their costs are fair and fully justified?

if you could clear up how it is going to work with this new product many thanks
basil

I think you are asking if line rental will be a pre-requisite for FTTP connections?

It will probably vary from retailer to retailer. There is also the option of Fibre Voice Access which means voice line rental is over the fibre and not the copper

There are large discounts in the price list for FTTP sold alongside a voice service. These are called "transition products" in the price list, for example the rental and sim provide of 330 / 30 FTTP is dropping in June to £355.32 pa with connection at £92 (Openreach wholesale price ex VAT)

The equivalent "data product" with no line requirements has a line rental of £456 pa so not having a copper line or voice service costs £100 pa more. In other words Openreach get the same line revenue either way.

Basic line rental (copper) is coming down to £94.75 pa from 1st April, so you're potentially no better or worse off with / without the copper line. It'll be handy to save call costs and to ring your ISP or the electricity company if the broadband or power dies too.

All of Openreach charges are crawled over endlessly by OFCOM, there have been tweaks up and down on various copper line charges in the last year, from memory fully unbundled lines were being cross subsidised by wholesale line rental and Talk Talk shouted a fair bit about increases.

It doesn't really matter whether you need voice or data - both need a "line" (the physical connection from you to the cabinet/exchange. So I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that when you only need data.

It is also probably to be expected that the costs for this are higher than for basic broadband. Your line is dedicated to you, pretty much all the other equipment for supplying broadband is shared with a number of other customers.

The logic of that last response escapes me.

With ADSL or FTTC there is a copper pair that carries the broadband as well as carrying voice calls.

With FTTP there is no need for a copper pair back to the exchange, just a fibre optic cable that goes back to a data aggregator.

I am not sure how a voice line is provided over FTTP.

Is it a copper pair installed as well as the fibre?
Is it some sort of device that is effectively a VOIP ATA?
Is it some other solution that I've not thought of?

Whichever it is, it is something additional to the fibre data connection. And that must cost something to provide, which is a waste if you don't want it.

We have FTTC here, and so have to pay line rental for the requisite phone line. There is no phone connected to it.

With FTTP there is no need for a copper pair, no need for a connection in the telephone exchange. So why make it compulsory?

If you look at the Openreach regulated costs , (can be found somewhere within the OFCOM site) or on the Openreach site. You will see that on Copper the majority of the cost is loaded onto the voice service, this pays for the provision and repair of the copper. The smaller part is for the BB part.

On FTTP the reverse is true the majority of the cost is loaded onto the data service to pay for the cost of the Fibre provision and repair. The voice is a comparatively small add on part to cover the ATA and voice VLAN costs ( 135Kbit service), the CPs do not have to take this so you could have a naked fibre BB service. However the seperate BB cost is nearly the same as the combined ( £3 cheaper I make it) BB + voiceservice so expect to pay more to your ISP if you do not want voice.

All my figures above are for the 330/30 product but all prices are in the link.

FTTP plus copper seems to be the same cost as the Fibre voice product.

Voice of fibre is still being tested by end users, even though it's as an available commercially listed product on BT Openreach's site.

The copper line is left in situ as a further backup should there be a power failure knocking out the fibre ONT + backup power supply. A new NTE5 faceplate is installed with a little flick switch on the top of it which allows you to switch back to the copper connection.

BT Infinity have been testing some users on the 330/30 with voice over fibre in my area since June last year (for only £19.99 a month!). Other users are just getting the internet only service (160/20) but are required to enter a line rental contract for 12 months:

Fibre optic

Up to 160Mb download speed

Up to 20Mb upload speed

£35+ Line rental from the equivalent of £10.75

Line Rental Saver £129 12 months in advance by debit/credit card – (equivalent to £10.75 a month). One per household. You'll need to pay any additional call charges by Direct Debit and switch to e-billing for this service. Advance payment is non-refundable. Exclusions and conditions apply.

Standard line rental – £15.45 a month with Direct Debit. There's a 12 month minimum term and connection charges may apply.

I would imagine once the ISPs get FTTP packages sorted out (hopefully from 1 Jul) then there will be combined data + voice packages. But it does seem strange how BTO are not installing the NTE5 faceplates for FTTP as standard when doing the main install, as this will require another engineer visit at some future point.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

The copper line is left in situ as a further backup should there be a power failure knocking out the fibre ONT + backup power supply. A new NTE5 faceplate is installed with a little flick switch on the top of it which allows you to switch back to the copper connection.

This is for brownfield installations, I agree.

I believe in greenfield there is no copper provision.

So I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that when you only need data.

An FTTP fibre data service would suit the needs of some or perhaps many, without the need for a copper voice service. FTTP is a fibre optic line to the house, it has ample bandwidth without needing a twisted pair copper alongside it.

There appears to be something wrong with the assumption you can flick the switch 'back'.

My understanding is that you flick the switch to fibre and enter a code, this sets a number portability 'script' in place that moves (ports) your number to the Fibre voice product.

If you move the switch back your number will no longer be associated with the copper line so you will NOT get incoming calls. You also may not get a full outgoing service depending on the state the line has been left in, ( may just be emergency).

If there was a major (long term) failure no doubt the provider could revert the line to the copper service but I doubt the switch will do that on it's own.

Someone on here described what they had to do to change the service over to the fibre voice service but I cannot find the thread.