FTTP/H aka line rental question? attention of andrew

right i think i know the answer to this but was wondering if Andrew could clarify this basically was wondering when fttp hits everywhere as some people don't have a need for a phone and have a laid fibre to home will we get hit with the dreaded line rental which only ever seems to go up every so often.

also if this is the case which i suspect we will to 'maintain' there free supply of income, why do they not offer to sell you the line and pay for when it does go wrong like a car breaks down you goto the garage, put in its most simplest form.

Because atm seems you have to pay at whatever they dictate (is it cost against %of profit they are required to make even if they have a more reduced market e.g. people can't afford or people switch to virgin, so the bills have to go up?) the price they set some suppliers let you pay year in advance which seems to save you a £5 a month but how is that worked out is it openreach pricing or the re-suppliers.

and yes i know fibre costs are huge against copper i just begrudge paying huge proportionate line rental when actual broadband cost is half the line rental e.g. line rental £14.50 against £7.50 broadband supply
surely this huge inbalance of charges needs looking at maybe by office of fair trading or am i being unfair here and their costs are fair and fully justified?

if you could clear up how it is going to work with this new product many thanks
basil

I think you are asking if line rental will be a pre-requisite for FTTP connections?

It will probably vary from retailer to retailer. There is also the option of Fibre Voice Access which means voice line rental is over the fibre and not the copper

There are large discounts in the price list for FTTP sold alongside a voice service. These are called "transition products" in the price list, for example the rental and sim provide of 330 / 30 FTTP is dropping in June to £355.32 pa with connection at £92 (Openreach wholesale price ex VAT)

The equivalent "data product" with no line requirements has a line rental of £456 pa so not having a copper line or voice service costs £100 pa more. In other words Openreach get the same line revenue either way.

Basic line rental (copper) is coming down to £94.75 pa from 1st April, so you're potentially no better or worse off with / without the copper line. It'll be handy to save call costs and to ring your ISP or the electricity company if the broadband or power dies too.

All of Openreach charges are crawled over endlessly by OFCOM, there have been tweaks up and down on various copper line charges in the last year, from memory fully unbundled lines were being cross subsidised by wholesale line rental and Talk Talk shouted a fair bit about increases.

It doesn't really matter whether you need voice or data - both need a "line" (the physical connection from you to the cabinet/exchange. So I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that when you only need data.

It is also probably to be expected that the costs for this are higher than for basic broadband. Your line is dedicated to you, pretty much all the other equipment for supplying broadband is shared with a number of other customers.

The logic of that last response escapes me.

With ADSL or FTTC there is a copper pair that carries the broadband as well as carrying voice calls.

With FTTP there is no need for a copper pair back to the exchange, just a fibre optic cable that goes back to a data aggregator.

I am not sure how a voice line is provided over FTTP.

Is it a copper pair installed as well as the fibre?
Is it some sort of device that is effectively a VOIP ATA?
Is it some other solution that I've not thought of?

Whichever it is, it is something additional to the fibre data connection. And that must cost something to provide, which is a waste if you don't want it.

We have FTTC here, and so have to pay line rental for the requisite phone line. There is no phone connected to it.

With FTTP there is no need for a copper pair, no need for a connection in the telephone exchange. So why make it compulsory?

If you look at the Openreach regulated costs , (can be found somewhere within the OFCOM site) or on the Openreach site. You will see that on Copper the majority of the cost is loaded onto the voice service, this pays for the provision and repair of the copper. The smaller part is for the BB part.

On FTTP the reverse is true the majority of the cost is loaded onto the data service to pay for the cost of the Fibre provision and repair. The voice is a comparatively small add on part to cover the ATA and voice VLAN costs ( 135Kbit service), the CPs do not have to take this so you could have a naked fibre BB service. However the seperate BB cost is nearly the same as the combined ( £3 cheaper I make it) BB + voiceservice so expect to pay more to your ISP if you do not want voice.

All my figures above are for the 330/30 product but all prices are in the link.

FTTP plus copper seems to be the same cost as the Fibre voice product.

Voice of fibre is still being tested by end users, even though it's as an available commercially listed product on BT Openreach's site.

The copper line is left in situ as a further backup should there be a power failure knocking out the fibre ONT + backup power supply. A new NTE5 faceplate is installed with a little flick switch on the top of it which allows you to switch back to the copper connection.

BT Infinity have been testing some users on the 330/30 with voice over fibre in my area since June last year (for only £19.99 a month!). Other users are just getting the internet only service (160/20) but are required to enter a line rental contract for 12 months:

Fibre optic

Up to 160Mb download speed

Up to 20Mb upload speed

£35+ Line rental from the equivalent of £10.75

Line Rental Saver £129 12 months in advance by debit/credit card � (equivalent to £10.75 a month). One per household. You'll need to pay any additional call charges by Direct Debit and switch to e-billing for this service. Advance payment is non-refundable. Exclusions and conditions apply.

Standard line rental � £15.45 a month with Direct Debit. There's a 12 month minimum term and connection charges may apply.

I would imagine once the ISPs get FTTP packages sorted out (hopefully from 1 Jul) then there will be combined data + voice packages. But it does seem strange how BTO are not installing the NTE5 faceplates for FTTP as standard when doing the main install, as this will require another engineer visit at some future point.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

The copper line is left in situ as a further backup should there be a power failure knocking out the fibre ONT + backup power supply. A new NTE5 faceplate is installed with a little flick switch on the top of it which allows you to switch back to the copper connection.

This is for brownfield installations, I agree.

I believe in greenfield there is no copper provision.

So I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that when you only need data.

An FTTP fibre data service would suit the needs of some or perhaps many, without the need for a copper voice service. FTTP is a fibre optic line to the house, it has ample bandwidth without needing a twisted pair copper alongside it.

There appears to be something wrong with the assumption you can flick the switch 'back'.

My understanding is that you flick the switch to fibre and enter a code, this sets a number portability 'script' in place that moves (ports) your number to the Fibre voice product.

If you move the switch back your number will no longer be associated with the copper line so you will NOT get incoming calls. You also may not get a full outgoing service depending on the state the line has been left in, ( may just be emergency).

If there was a major (long term) failure no doubt the provider could revert the line to the copper service but I doubt the switch will do that on it's own.

Someone on here described what they had to do to change the service over to the fibre voice service but I cannot find the thread.

I think there's some misunderstandings being propagated in this thread - Perfectly understandably given the way BT Wholesale market their products.

There are three elements:

1. Circuit cost - Physical connection to the exchange aka Line
2. Voice service - Cost of telephony
3. Brodaband service - Cost of data service.

Up to now BTW have failed to join the 21st century and insist on linking items 1 and 2. So much so that, rather than referring to the circuit via its id they insist on using a telephony number.

Should you not require telephony - Tough. You have to have it!

Fibre gives the chance to break this model and charge for the service provision seperately. Whether BTW take this opportunity remains to be seen.

To answer the OP - There will always be 'line rental' as there's a circuit in place that needs to be paid for. The cost may (or may not) be inflated by the cost of compulsory telephony. I hope not as I have no need for telephony and it annoys me that I have to pay for something I don't need effectively because the system is built that way...

Edited by ferretuk (Sun 24-Mar-13 22:55:16)

I am sure they will do, but right now it doesn't make sense.

The only reason they'll do it is when they get start getting considerable savings on maintenance when they can start pulling out/getting rid of the copper network.

Considering even on a brownfield site with FTTP you could elect to restore the copper connection, there are no real savings to be made.

You miss my point. Line rental is not synonymous with copper. You rent a circuit and, at the moment, this is generally provided with a telephony service thrown in whether you want it or not.

There will always be line rental, even with fibre, but the time is now right to embrace the concept of paying for the line and then adding the services you wish to use. There's nothing stopping this happening with copper now of course...

So you mean a product like Fibre Voice Access?

In reply to a post by tonycollinet:

It doesn't really matter whether you need voice or data - both need a "line" (the physical connection from you to the cabinet/exchange. So I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that when you only need data.

It is also probably to be expected that the costs for this are higher than for basic broadband. Your line is dedicated to you, pretty much all the other equipment for supplying broadband is shared with a number of other customers.

I don't agree with any of this, and I think the OP and ferretuk are right - there should be an option to have a "landline" (be it all copper or only partly) without a traditional voice service. Some people (like me) simply don't want it, and pay enough on their mobile contracts to not need it either. Yes, you still need a "line" for a broadband-only service... but I don't see how that makes a difference, if/when you pay for broadband, surely you're paying for line rental. It doesn't cost BT/OR any more if you never use it for voice, quite the opposite, which I suppose is part of the point. ISPs can advertise broadband of whatever kind for £10 a month, unlimited downloads, etc., but then there's the "Oh of course you'll have to pay £15.99 per month for line rental". The adverts show some ultra-modern teenagers using fibre to stream MP3s to a house party, and that's exactly what FTTC etc is wanted for, not phoning people from an unnecessary handset and using "free" minutes up on that, when you have "free" minutes on your mobile which is likely to be smaller, more convenient, and without the need for a base station(s) taking up room in however many rooms you want it. A land voice line is just one of those traditional things which could and should be starting to be phased out now because it's not necessary, the only reason it's not is probably so ISPs can advertise 40Mb fibre for a tenner or whatever, when what they really mean is something like a minimun of £25, because you'll have to have the traditional phone stuff which a user might not need or want. It would be great if an ISP offered even ADSL2+, completely unlimited, for... say, £20 a month, no traditional voice service; just internet, to use as you please. Then you'd save a tenner a month over the example I offered up there, and you'd avoid a lot of spam calls wasting your time and distracting you, which is the only thing my landline does for me. All my friends have loads of free minutes to whatever on their mobiles too, it isn't 2005 any more when "calling a mobile" was a real issue, i.e. 40p straight away even if it goes straight to voicemail.

I'm not saying the traditional service should be withdrawn at all, for some people it's absolutely indispensable, and even if it isn't and a user simply prefers to have a traditional landline service then they they should still have the choice. But those who don't want it shouldn't have to put up with it being a mandatory doubling (in a lot of cases) of the cost of what is simply desired as a wired broadband service. There aren't any additional maintenance costs or inconveniences for OR if someone simply wants a broadband line, almost the opposite, if there's a problem then all an engineer has to do is exactly the same thing(s), minus taking traditional voice issues into consideration.

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 11:29:36)

AAISP offer what you desire, voice line rental but with NO support for voice calls on it, i..e just there to pay rental so you can have broadband on it.

The cost of the WLR line rental as of April is £7.90 a month, so maybe question is why at the retail level is it almost double this, and WLR has been dropping year on year.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5651-openreach-an...

Should you not require telephony - Tough. You have to have it!

Don't plug a telephone in and you don't have it. You only pay for telephony if you use it.

£85.04 is the annual rental of a copper circuit - full MPF LLU - whereas WLR with a connection to the BT voice exchange equipment is £94.75. Both ex VAT and wholesale.

I'm not seeing a massive cost difference there so your item 2 "cost of telephony" is being picked up in the (now rather high) connection charge per call and per minute rates.

Cheers for the reply Andrew, that's interesting. I actually wasn't aware that WLR was dropping in price, either.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Should you not require telephony - Tough. You have to have it!

Don't plug a telephone in and you don't have it. You only pay for telephony if you use it.

Er... in the real world, that isn't right, is it? If I unplug my phones from their ADSL filters now, will Talk Talk pick up on it and reduce my bill? Would any ISP? Would any ISP do it even if I ring them up and declare that I am not using telephony, and they are welcome to check as often as they like? Maybe some would offer you a different contract which excludes telephony but even if you found a co-operative ISP you'd probably have to wait until your current contract expires, or pay a switchover fee, or something. I was obviously unaware of the deal MrSaffron linked to up there with AAISP, but I bet if you rang 99% of ISPs and asked for no telephony and a price cut immediately to your monthly bill, the very very best you could hope for was them offering you a cheaper calls package, i.e. maybe £8 a month "line rental" instead of £15, on top of your broadband. You'd probably have to be on the phone for an hour and ask for a manager and threaten to switch ISP anyway, to which they'd simply argue the above, i.e. "If you want to terminate your contract early then fine, that'll be £50 [or whatever] please.". So bearing all of that in mind, I really don't think it's fair to say

Don't plug a telephone in and you don't have it. You only pay for telephony if you use it.

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 11:46:05)

AAISP can do the cheap line rental by charging realistic prices for the other elements of their broadband service.

There are cheap deals for voice, like Primus or paying for 12 months in advance.

The wholesale price is such that if there was a market for a lower cost rental with NO call support, not even emergency then it would be offered. For now some niche providers are doing that.

Which is the better deal?

BB £4, line rental £15 and ability to make the odd call
BB £8, line rental £11 and no ability to make the odd call

In reply to a post by gazzyk1ns:

... and that's exactly what FTTC etc is wanted for, not phoning people from an unnecessary handset and using "free" minutes up on that, when you have "free" minutes on your mobile which is likely to be smaller, more convenient, and without the need for a base station(s) taking up room in however many rooms you want it.

As yarwell suggested, just don't plug in any phones.

... the only reason it's not is probably so ISPs can advertise 40Mb fibre for a tenner or whatever, when what they really mean is something like a minimun of £25, because you'll have to have the traditional phone stuff which a user might not need or want. It would be great if an ISP offered even ADSL2+, completely unlimited, for... say, £20 a month, no traditional voice service; just internet, to use as you please. Then you'd save a tenner a month over the example I offered up there, and you'd avoid a lot of spam calls wasting your time and distracting you, which is the only thing my landline does for me.

If in the right area Plusnet offer Unlimited ADSL at £9.99pm plus the line rental which comes in at £10.49 if paid annually.

How do you get spam calls without any phones plugged in, and if they aren't ever going to be used why do you have any anyway, especially taking up living space?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 25-Mar-13 13:54:31)

I suppose my view is skewed slightly because I wouldn't have anything other than a BB deal that involved no transfer limits.

I was also musing about what I would like to see happen, rather than what actually is available (as you might have gathered from my ignorance with regards to the packages you mention, and the fact that I pay Talk Talk £30 a month). I do pay in advance which helps but not as much as if they offered a significantly cheaper "no voice" option. Again, I'm speaking from my perspective, if I wasn't tied to a contract and was simply choosing a new ISP right now then your advice would save me lots of money. I assume the £4 BB option includes transfer limits?

I think Virgin Media Cable offers just broadband doesn't it?

How much cheaper than £8+VAT a month do you actually think a naked DSL line would be?
The LLU MPF fee is identical even if the provider offers no voice service at all.

The problem is that you are looking at your situation and not the millions who seem happy to still use a landline for phone calls.

Offering a wide range of products can be more expensive, than actually just offering the 2 or 3 most popular deals. Perhaps the answer is move business to one of the providers who does offer the line rental option you want.

The BB in my illustration was identical.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The cost of the WLR line rental as of April is £7.90 a month, so maybe question is why at the retail level is it almost double this, and WLR has been dropping year on year.

That's ex-vat. Plusnet annual payment by end users is the equivalent of £8.74pm ex vat. Seems OK to me.

Even on monthly payment terms it is only £11.66pm ex vat. That's a 48% markup, which is far from excessive in most retail environments.

As yarwell suggested, just don't plug in any phones.

Well 99% of my point was that I wouldn't be charged anything less. Since I'm forced into having a voice service at the moment, and I already have phones so I don't need to spend any money on the hardware side fo things, it seems silly not to; and because...

How do you get spam calls without any phones plugged in, and if they aren't ever going to be used why do you have any anyway, especially taking up living space?

My parents are old fashioned, a bit hard of hearing, and don't regularly use mobiles; and their landline package allows them free calls to other landlines - so they call my landline. They needn't, as they share an O2 mobile which has free minutes to me, they just prefer to use a landline (and calling my mobile from that would cost them 20/40p a minute or whatever). So I don't need a landline, in an emergency they'd call my mobile from the landline or use their mobile. I can always call them free to either their mobile or landline, from my mobile.

Sorry for the long-winded and personal explanation, just explaining how I don't need a voice landline, and if I could save significant money then I'd opt out.

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 14:06:22)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

How much cheaper than £8+VAT a month do you actually think a naked DSL line would be?
The LLU MPF fee is identical even if the provider offers no voice service at all.

I don't know, I am just looking at my bill and seeing that I'm being charged money for something I don't need.

The problem is that you are looking at your situation and not the millions who seem happy to still use a landline for phone calls.

Of course I'm looking at my own situation, I' not a representative of anyone or a salesman. I've explained above that I too am happy to use a landline if necessary, I'm 30 and so grew up with no mobiles. It just seems that most people do have a mobile now, which can take care of their voice needs if they can get acceptable coverage, so there's no need to be paying for free minutes on both your mobile and landline - just use your mobile for voice if you choose to have one (and again, aren't going to lose a signal in the event of an emergency).

Having said all of that, point taken about having the backup of a landline at minimal cost - again, just my circumstances, isn't it...

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 14:20:03)

In reply to a post by gazzyk1ns:

Sorry for the long-winded and personal explanation, just explaining how I don't need a voice landline, and if I could save significant money then I'd opt out.

Seeing as the whole system isn't likely to change any time soon, it looks like you could save a significant amount by migrating the lot to Plusnet. Just in case, could you tell us your exchange please so we can check it is a low cost one?

Still having the benfits re your parents phone usage preferences that also apply to millions of others and are a significant factor in the providers' overall pricing strategies, in turn preventing the change you would like.

Yes, I've posted above to concede some points there.

My exchange is EAHAS, I'm on cabinet 3, which is accepting orders for FTTC. I don't need to pay the extra tenner for 40Mb though, as I get the full 18/1 on ADSL2+. I've paid up-front for another... erm... 8 or 9 months now, I think.

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 14:18:47)

In reply to a post by gazzyk1ns:

... so there's no need to be paying for free minutes on both your mobile and landline - just use your mobile for voice if you choose to have one (and again, aren't going to lose a signal in the event of an emergency).

Having said all of that, point taken about having the backup of a landline at minimal cost - again, just my circumstances, isn't it...

I have the landline with BT, with free included E & W due to being on a legacy package. I use my O2 mobile during landline charging periods except for 0800 and such that cost a ridiculous amount on mobiles.

Which I use during E & W depends on convenience on each occasion.

I recently signed up for BT SmartTalk. That is great as it allows me to use my landline E & W plan from my mobile - so letting me make free 0800 from it, and chargeable 08xx numbers also at the landline rate. As I understand it, not yet tested, I can also do that at any BT WiFi site.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 25-Mar-13 14:22:57)

Well... I've learned something, cheers for the discussion everyone. I didn't mean to start an argument. I'll certainly look at migrating from TalkTalk when the time comes.

OK, it's a Market 2 exchange which means you would get the headline Plusnet prices.

Unlimited FTTC on Plusnet is £19.99 compared to the ADSL2+ £9.99. Is your TT FTTC or ADSL2+?

It's ADSL 2+. I suppose I definitely have an answer with regards to what I should do ASAP - but again, I've paid for another 8/9 months now. I should have done more homework really, although to be fair to me, my FTTC cabinet was physically there but not accepting orders when I paid TT in advance last year.

Yep, you should have done more homework. I'm paying £30.48 less my referrals for unlimited fibre and telephone with unlimited evening and weekend calls, which we rarely use, as like you we have mobiles with free minutes.

I always hated homework

Considering even on a brownfield site with FTTP you could elect to restore the copper connection,

But if the site has never had any copper network, how would you be able to do that ?

I don't know, I am just looking at my bill and seeing that I'm being charged money for something I don't need.

Only if you start from a preconception that the basic line rental charge is being inflated by the provision of telephony bundled with the line. I start from a preconception that the line rental is a constant and calls are billed in addition.

You need the line, to carry the DSL, and the ability to make phone calls and pay for them either PAYG or bundled comes with the line, but you don't have to incur any call costs on the landline if you don't use them or don't buy into a bundle.

Of course it's a lot cheaper to ring many numbers from a landline ( like 0800 ! ) and it's a lot cheaper for many people to call you on a landline, so the facility to make and receive lower cost calls is quite handy. Just got my bill - a shade under £15 for line rental and two hours of calls.

yarwell the point was about fttp/fttb and how 'future line rental' was to be costed not the current status quo, new product with perhaps with modern 21st century options rather than line rental is x pre-paid and 50% more on top if pay monthly.

yes i appreciate a circuit has to be paid for but from where i've been sitting for last few years costs of line rental have been going up up and up, well above inflation without any explanation or justification to costs or efficiencies by openreach they seem to just change it up when suits and soon as they do virgin joins in behind them and everyone moans by just pays as do we all.

I am trying to ask the question what if i want a different option, maybe a cheaper option? from where i'm sitting no one wants to ask questions how can it be better as well as cheaper. because in my own opinion landlines are not required by alot of people these days they just have them because they are there.
give them the option of cheaper circuit/line rental without a phone see how many drop it!

I have a mobile with 2000mins a month this takes care of all my needs full stop and my mobile won't be going and with 4g in its infancy the potential of time as data increases on packages. The question will come do i need broadband at home or will mobile pick up the slack answer probably yes just run the lot from the mobile to home network i reckon in next 5 to 10 years and openreach supplied BB could be in real issues. the world is always evolving as is technology also so is the age population then ask the teenagers how many use a landline i think you will find the answer is incredibly low!
but i would like a little bit of thought going forward but as they say time will tell and if it doesn't evolve mobile markets always do.

anyway put my thoughts forward hope i have cleared it up what i was getting at a 21st century solution not a 1960 exchange.

basil

I would reconsider your thoughts when the cost of WLR has been dropping in the last couple of years.

Ofcom in 2012 hailed the latest price cut as bringing savings to consumers, but retail level still went up.

ultimately land lines are a ripoff, but BT and VM arent just going to cancel the charges because they not needed by the customer as to them thats throwing money down the drain.

On FTTP I would fully expect if no line rental they just whack the missing revenue onto the FTTP price instead.

VM do allow you to save some money without a landline but not all of it, if no landline the broadband price goes up.

Basil

You are right it is a fiddle BUT it is propagated by the "buy the cheapest broadband" arttitude. ISPs have been subsidising the cost of the BB service from the voice service, so the total price changes little.

WLR prices have been dropping year on year to the CPs as have MPF prices until recently. However Retail prices for line rental have gone up to subsidise the cheap supposed BB prices. If you look at my post earlier you can see on FTTP the prices for the Data path and for the Voice path. If looked at seperately the Data path looks £4 cheaper than the combined total per year. The combined total is split Voice and Data with the data price being about £100 cheaper than the Data only price ( 330/30 price). ie the circuit cost is being split between both, if you only take 1 you pay the whole cost.

Taking this to the logical extension the BB only price on Copper will be the line rental plus BB tarriff, exactly what you pay today.

When loooking at LLU equipment you would find it handles both services on the same port / card / Chassis and backhaul, so if they were only getting money from one service they would have to raise the BB price to cover the lost voice revenue.

I believe this is why both TalkTalk and Sky want people to take both services when they move to LLU and may refuse to allow people to take one service only. ( Bundled only products).

People do not recognise that the BB price is artificially low due to the inflated voice line rental.

That is exacty what is available, see my post at the start of the thread for the links to Openreach prices.

The prices are FVA only £183.48
combination with 40/2 £186.48
Price for 40/2 £183.48

The £3 differential for the combination stays steady right up to the 330/30 product.

Inference is the VLAN set-up and billing costs less than £3 and the "fibre" costs £180.48 at their payback period.

The second line is definitely a rip off as it costs the standard copper £103.68 when it should cost more like the £3.

Of course ISP will load their own costs on here as well but these show the underlying price from Openreach