FTTP - Do you also have to pay the line rental charge?

If you have an FTTP on demand service, do you need to pay the BT line rental charge if you discontinue your copper connection?

Depends on what rules the retail provider decides to impose

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Depends on what rules the retail provider decides to impose

OK, so would BT Openreach charge the retail provider for the copper and fibre connections separately?

Yes, they both need to be maintained.

If I remember correctly, the bundled charge from Openreach (to the wholesaler) for both voice and broadband amounts to largely the same amount as broadband alone.

And I think that remains true whether the voice goes down copper, or as a separate VLAN on the fibre.

Of course, to Opereach, a line rental is to help provide the access network - an empty pipe - not to provide either a broadband or telephony service over the top of it.

Obviously the wholesale level needs to add their charges for supplying telephony as a distinct service from broadband - and they may decide that bundling is an appropriate way to go too.

In reply to a post by ryant704:

Yes, they both need to be maintained.

Why maintain the copper connection? I see no need for a copper connection. I could use VOIP for a landline connection.

Sorry, I thought you wanted both.

You will have to pay off the remaining amount of months of your line rental unless the ISP are willing to do this for you.

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Apr-13 21:58:16)

Looking at the GEA-FTTP price list, two options seem to exist one with the copper and one without.

Would need to confirm it at the Openreach level, and then the other levels might pick to make it a requirement, so that they get revenue from xfactor voting

Why maintain the copper connection? I see no need for a copper connection.

Maybe you don't, but perhaps the next owner of your property might want to use a service provider who does not provide a fibre based product,

999 calls?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Why maintain the copper connection? I see no need for a copper connection.

Maybe you don't, but perhaps the next owner of your property might want to use a service provider who does not provide a fibre based product,

Then they can have the copper part reconnected. I don't use a phone line and have had mine disconnected, but it is still physically connected to my house, in fact there is still a dial tone, but i can't phone out and no one can phone in.


About time they got rid of the need to pay line rental or full line rental anyway on FTTC or normal broadband, if you are not going to use that part of the service.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

999 calls?

VoIP, that is what I have got, ok if there is a fire and power cut then you are stumped, but most people these days also got mobile phones.

I don't have any phone line anymore.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

About time they got rid of the need to pay line rental or full line rental anyway on FTTC or normal broadband, if you are not going to use that part of the service.

Again - you are equating the term "line rental" with meaning the telephony service that runs on the line. No surprise, because this is how BT has always done things.

Try thinking of it as 3 different services:
- line rental - of a raw, empty line
- telephony
- data

You can't have the data without also having a line, so you must pay some line rental.

At the moment, BT has a tendency to bundle together the real "line rental" with the "telephony service" into one thing. You can't separate the two.

If BT ever did separate the two, you can rest assured that you will still pay some form of line rental even if you took no telephony service.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

About time they got rid of the need to pay line rental or full line rental anyway on FTTC or normal broadband, if you are not going to use that part of the service.

Again - you are equating the term "line rental" with meaning the telephony service that runs on the line. No surprise, because this is how BT has always done things.

Try thinking of it as 3 different services:
- line rental - of a raw, empty line
- telephony
- data

You can't have the data without also having a line, so you must pay some line rental.

At the moment, BT has a tendency to bundle together the real "line rental" with the "telephony service" into one thing. You can't separate the two.

If BT ever did separate the two, you can rest assured that you will still pay some form of line rental even if you took no telephony service.

I would not mind paying some rental as i understand that the infrastructure have to be maintained, even if Bt is making massive amounts of profit, after all I pay a standing charge for my energy meters. but if I don't use some of the services then I think I should not have to pay the full amount. the same with gas electric, if I don't have gas then I don't pay a standing charge for it.

Ok, I know that is not really comparing like for like, but you get the idea.

For the amount I used to use my home phone, I thought paying £15 a month or what ever they charge now is a lot of money, which is why I changed my phone service to First telecom, I was paying a tenner most of the time, it went up to £11 if I used the phone a lot. Why they only charged me a tenner I have no idea since it was suppose to be £11 something.

Now I don't pay any line rental and I use VoIP, i will keep the VoIP even if i ever go back to a fixed line, which to be honest, I really don't want to as it means going back onto a BT system and also the prices for FTTC is a bit high unless i went with one of the larger ISPs and i don't really want to do that.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

If you have an FTTP on demand service, do you need to pay the BT line rental charge if you discontinue your copper connection?

The general fibre pricing comes in too flavours - data only and "transition product" alongside a copper service. The latter is cheaper for the fibre, and probably combined - there was an earlier thread where I dug that out.

Copper represents a revenue opportunity for Openreach or CPs.

Edited by yarwell (Mon 22-Apr-13 12:26:19)

WLR rental sites at ~£9 per month (£7.90 ex VAT).

Then many retail providers add their overheads in billing and allowance for the inclusive calls that are normal.

So there is scope for a cheap as chips WLR with no calls in the bundle at all, and then E&W calls as say a £3 add-on and anytime as another £4 add on (examples not costed properly).

Full LLU is cheaper by about £1.20 per month compared to SMPF + WLR, and any naked DSL option would be firmly oppossed by the full operators if it undercut them.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Copper represents a revenue opportunity for Openreach or CPs.

And the (not occasional enough) tea-leaf

also £1,000 rewards on offer from Openreach on a local roundabout for information leading to conviction

Haven't seen any of those yet... sounds like a sensible idea.

and all paid to one big monopolising company.

We could build another local loop across the UK, so that one big PLC did not have the power, but would one big .gov owned firm be better?

Or we could do the way of regional operators, making it fun around the borders between them.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

999 calls?

I think most VoIP providers (well Sipgate do) optionally allow you to register your number and address for the emergency services so it's not a problem.

In reply to a post by simon194:

I think most VoIP providers (well Sipgate do) optionally allow you to register your number and address for the emergency services so it's not a problem.

It is if your ATA and ONT are out of power.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

It is if your ATA and ONT are out of power.

My IP PBX, DECT basestation, router and FTTC modem are all on a UPS - Next?

Edited by ferretuk (Mon 22-Apr-13 16:20:02)

My modem, router and IP phone are as well.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by simon194:

I think most VoIP providers (well Sipgate do) optionally allow you to register your number and address for the emergency services so it's not a problem.

It is if your ATA and ONT are out of power.

As long as the BT exchange UPS is working

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

We could build another local loop across the UK, so that one big PLC did not have the power, but would one big .gov owned firm be better?

Or we could do the way of regional operators, making it fun around the borders between them.

There have to be a better way surly? allowing BT a private company to make huge profits and now via the tax payers, because they have a monopoly.


i know that regional operators can be a pain, My cousin lives int he states and she have had problems, because one operator say it is not their problem and another one says it is not their problem. but we get that here anyway, with ISps saying it is a Bt problem when it is not, or the other way around.

I have had a couple of arguments with a ISP, who blamed Bt and BT blamed my ISP.

but there have to be a different way. i am glad that at the moment I don't rely on BT.

In reply to a post by ferretuk:

In reply to a post by yarwell:

It is if your ATA and ONT are out of power.

My IP PBX, DECT basestation, router and FTTC modem are all on a UPS - Next?

Which clearly doesn't have an unlimited battery :-/

In reply to a post by pete_thomson:

In reply to a post by ferretuk:

In reply to a post by yarwell:

It is if your ATA and ONT are out of power.

My IP PBX, DECT basestation, router and FTTC modem are all on a UPS - Next?

Which clearly doesn't have an unlimited battery :-/

Maybe not, but running those things are not really going to stretch a decent UPs, so it should last for a few hours.

I remember when I first said I was going for a wireless service and getting rid of my phone line and going VoIP, I had people saying what if there is a power cut and you need to phone out.

I can use a UPS, which at the moment I have not got, well not for the network stuff. i got a mobile phone.


I don't miss my landline, I put £20 on sipgate about 9 months ago and I still got about £18 left. i don't really use it, I got 300 mins on my mobile and that is more than enough.


But other peoples situation may be different.

I have FTTP with voice over fibre and yes you have to pay the same line rental although there are deals