Concerned about FTTC connection

Hi
I had my FTTC connection installed on Monday - it was done by a contractor, Quinn something or other. The installer did not seem very competent.

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

The phone line in this house hasn't been used for years and there is a junction box in the cubby hole out front that looks quite old. None of this was checked and no line tests were carried out. Can someone tell me if they should have been?



Am I justified in being rather unimpressed?

I was estimated to get 46meg. Initally the modem synced at around this mark ~44000. Within 24 hours the sync had changed to 44800. Less than another 24 hours it has dropped back to ~44000 and today its now synced at:

Downstream rate = 41677 Kbps

My attainable rate has started at 45800, went down to ~40,100 and s back up now at 48372.

DLM seems to have added some INP and delay where as before it was 0

INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61


Also my FEC has gone up a lot - is this anything to worry about?

My total line stats:

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.2 6.2
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.4 3.3
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 51 237
M: 1 1
T: 64 36
R: 12 16
S: 0.0397 0.9291
L: 12897 2187
D: 815 1
I: 64 127
N: 64 254
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 24774264 1538334
OHFErr: 39 92
RS: 2047144998 1455025
RSCorr: 3030767 121
RSUnCorr: 959 0

Path 0
HEC: 210 0
OCD: 7 0
LCD: 7 0
Total Cells: 769134334 0
Data Cells: 5284400 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
AS: 63192

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61

Bitswap: 7399 1068

Total time = 1 days 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 3030767 546
CRC: 39 539
ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
LOS: 10 0
LOF: 10 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 8312 5
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 8612 2
CRC: 0 2
ES: 0 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 398735 14
CRC: 4 6
ES: 1 6
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 2632032 145
CRC: 35 117
ES: 916 102
SES: 10 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Since Link time = 17 hours 33 min 11 sec
FEC: 3030767 121
CRC: 39 92
ES: 15 78
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

Am I worrying over nothing here?

Thanks

FEC counters tot up the errors that were fixed with fancy maths, the ones that weren't fixed are CRC errors so it's the latter that you don't want to see a lot of.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

I had my FTTC connection installed on Monday - it was done by a contractor, Quinn something or other. The installer did not seem very competent.

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

It isn't the normal way, but it does happen - and is the standard way of finding a pair if it really is hard to find... and they can be sometimes.

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

Not ideal, but it is getting close to what is about to happen live, where you get to install the modem for yourself.

By itself, it doesn't mean you are going to suffer any extra problems. I've had engineer's install FTTC twice, and while they *have* gone through the test process, they haven't actually gone and changed anything anywhere (save the original switch at the cabinet)..

The phone line in this house hasn't been used for years and there is a junction box in the cubby hole out front that looks quite old. None of this was checked and no line tests were carried out. Can someone tell me if they should have been?

So was this part of installation of the phone too? I'm surprised that no-one tested the line, and that it had the right number. Perhaps that doesn't happen so much any more - others will have to comment.

Am I justified in being rather unimpressed?

Certainly more unimpressed than impressed.

I was estimated to get 46meg. Initally the modem synced at around this mark ~44000. Within 24 hours the sync had changed to 44800. Less than another 24 hours it has dropped back to ~44000

Such small changes don't matter too much, but were the resync's caused by you manually doing something? Or automatically?

Otherwise, you'd normally expect there to be little change over the first 48 hours. Until...

and today its now synced at:

Downstream rate = 41677 Kbps

DLM will usually only intervene after 48 hours, so this is reasonable timing. You've lost less than 10%, so it isn't too bad.

My attainable rate has started at 45800, went down to ~40,100 and s back up now at 48372.

The first figure matches your original speed. Ironically, the attainable rate seems to go up a little when DLM adds interleaving & FEC - by about the same amount as the actual speed drops by. No problem with the third figure.

The drop of attainable to 40M is a bit more worrying, indicating some noise on the line that wasn't there at sync time (as the sync has never gone that low). The corresponding good news is that you must have stayed sync'd at the time.

DLM seems to have added some INP and delay where as before it was 0

INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61

INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms is a fairly common setting that DLM uses to turn on interleaving and FEC - treat it as a "standard level", and we've seen worse.

Also my FEC has gone up a lot - is this anything to worry about?

Yes - the FEC counter starts running as soon as DLM turns on interleaving alongside FEC.

This alone isn't a worry, but I understand your concern.

The question is what is happening to the CRC counter (or the OHFErr counter; same thing).

A level of 35 CRC in 24 hours isn't bad. If that is maintained, the level of interleaving/FEC isn't going to be made any worse.

The level of FEC is high enough, so DLM isn't going to be turning the interleaving off.

Am I worrying over nothing here?

How long has the cabinet been there, and orderable? If it has been there a while, then I'd be less worried. If it is new, and you're one of the first subscribers, I'd be more worried.

But either way, there isn't much you can do if things stay as they are, speed-wise, and everything stays stable.

If those resyncs were automatic, and if you continue to see more of them, and the speed jumps around some, then I'd report a fault - and mention the low standard of install.

Thanks for the replies - I appreciate the time taken. All the re-syncs were automatic.

The phone line was new (re-activated - previous occupant had VM) as part of the install but talktalk do things in stages so they activate the line and ADSL and then make you book the FTTC install after at which point they de-activate the ADSL.

One thing I have noticed is that while my line is quiet - after dialing a number I get a series of clicks before it rings (even 1471) I have never noticed this on any other line I've had.

Its a shame about the delay added - my pings are now worse than the ADSL2+ I had at my old place!

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

Thanks for the replies - I appreciate the time taken. All the re-syncs were automatic.

So how are you managing to get router stats ?

how are you managing to get router stats
If you have an HG612 it is easy to unlock and get the stats. Lots of threads on this forum.

http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com/about/ is the best place to start.

Edited by StephenTodd (Fri 26-Apr-13 17:56:50)

lol

Try re-reading my post .

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

I will nearly always go to the premises first, have a quick chat, then apply a tone before going to the cabinet. It makes life a lot simpler, and if you have ever seen inside these cabs, some can be a tad tricky.

I note that you are with Talk Talk for this, it is more than likely that the only telephone number given on the task notes was your mobile, then line being referred to as LLTH0123456 or some such, all this can slow the job down, by putting a tone on, the installer knows for sure they are on the right pairs.

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

The modem really ought to be wall mounted, thats just laziness.

The 'call back', an Eclipse test, should return two texts, one (hopefully) saying the line tests OK, and another saying the VDSL tests OK with associated up and down sync rates.

This is one of my bugbears with these guys, if an Openreach bod has to install VDSL, they have a mandatory instruction to have the line pass an end to end pair quality test, and a scripted VDSL closeout test, both these are uploaded after the task and are visible to both Openreach and the CP, oh and THEN do an Eclipse test. If the pair is iffy, they have to fix it there and then. If something wiring wise looks dubious, it's always worth taking a quick look, if there is a fault reported against the service within the 1st 28 days, the installer gets an ELF (early life failure) one of the many stats they are measured by.

The contractors have none of this to do. It has been asked why these guys can do 8 jobs a day, and Openreach only 4, go figure. False economy in my book, no one appears to realise how much time and money Openreach waste clearing up after these guys work, usually star wiring left in situ, extensions teed before the NTE, etc. Thats not to mention the installs they throw back in the pot for some trumped up excuse. Quality.

Never mind, self install VDSL on its way soon, so instead of clearing up after these guys, Openreach can be charging the CP's when their engineers have to go sort out the mess the punters have made.

Try re-reading my post
Whoops, sorry. Actually, I read the post -- I just didn't read who wrote it.

What does your only original post have to do with my reply to the OP ???????

You appear to be replying to the wrong posters.

OK, it's not just me thinking that then ...

LOL.

My point was that he has either flashed the modem, or replaced it. Hence at least one manual re-sync, contrary to the quote. Note the post did have -in-cheek.

The BT community forums only operate in flat mode.

The BT community forums only operate in flat mode.

....Ah, you've lost me there now.

Post deleted by RobertoS

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The BT community forums only operate in flat mode.

....Ah, you've lost me there now.

I don't think he means Flat Mode. I think he means they can't reply to specific posts.

Yes, I mean they operate in the manner that you can simulate here by replying to the last post in flat mode. Some posters here are more used to the BT Community forums, and it shows.

.... but this isn't The/A BT Community Forum ??





Oh, hang on, was that the poster with whom there was a big kerfuffle on the BT Broadband section several months ago ??

No, another one

OK, think I'm up to speed now Batty, thank you.

For someone who may be retarded .

I think I'm responding to the right post (and its even relevant to OP).

It would be interesting to hear Zarjaz's opinon on the thread
http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Infinity/Engineer-char...

Sorry - wasn't being too clear here - I had a flashed HG612 from my last install from my old house and as the engineer installed a 612 here, as soon he left I swapped it out. Maybe I should have waited - I don't know, I figured one re-sync wouldn't do any harm.

So, one re-sync was caused by me - the rest were automatic.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that as soon as I lift my telephone handset my SNR drops 1.1db with a corresponding drop in attainable rate.

Yes, my SNRM drops a bit more than that. Just like on ADSLx.

Re the Zarjaz thing, look at the header of your "Reply" to me earlier. You clicked the Reply button on his post, not on mine .

My Momma always said, "Life is like a box of chocolates."

There is always the option for HWS (home wiring solution) on these installs. Within this there is an option to have the existing NTE shifted (within reason). The installing engineer should have done what was asked, and at very least ensured that the NTE he did fit was fed directly, not with star wiring before it. That the poster has been charged ...........

Annoyingly DLM has changed my line profile again for the worse...

Path 0
INP: 6.00 4.00
PER: 2.51 11.57
delay: 15.00 6.00
OR: 76.41 31.08

New sync:

Max: Upstream rate = 9187 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46808 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 7016 Kbps, Downstream rate = 38898 Kbps

Can you post a link to the graphs?

I would but it happened when I was out and as my IP address changes every time there is a re-sync the TBB graph just shows red.

This is one of my bugbears with these guys, if an Openreach bod has to install VDSL, they have a mandatory instruction to have the line pass an end to end pair quality test, and a scripted VDSL closeout test, both these are uploaded after the task and are visible to both Openreach and the CP, oh and THEN do an Eclipse test. If the pair is iffy, they have to fix it there and then. If something wiring wise looks dubious, it's always worth taking a quick look, if there is a fault reported against the service within the 1st 28 days, the installer gets an ELF (early life failure) one of the many stats they are measured by.

...and having recently had 8 pstn circuits installed at the same premises (and for reasons that only make sense to openreach, all on different days), I can tell you that the lines that were installed by real, quality Openreach engineers work without issue, in 100% of cases.

The ones installed by "Kelly Communications" well, er, aren't all working - every single one has a fault, especially now we've added broadband. Openreach guys were each on site for about 45 minutes by the time they'd done the cabinet run, whereas Kelly were in for about 10-15 minutes. Admittedly in 2 cases the previous OR engineer had done some prep for them, but still.

I'm pretty close to refusing jobs where Kelly turn up.

The contractors have none of this to do. It has been asked why these guys can do 8 jobs a day, and Openreach only 4, go figure. False economy in my book, no one appears to realise how much time and money Openreach waste clearing up after these guys work, usually star wiring left in situ, extensions teed before the NTE, etc. Thats not to mention the installs they throw back in the pot for some trumped up excuse. Quality.

They can only do "8 jobs" if you define "done" as "not tested or finished"

Long live real Openreach engineers.

Never mind, self install VDSL on its way soon, so instead of clearing up after these guys, Openreach can be charging the CP's when their engineers have to go sort out the mess the punters have made.

Still think personally all BB installs should have been proper engineer installed, which eliminates loads of potential issues and makes it nice and tidy in the long run if a fault develops.

Still think personally all BB installs should have been proper engineer installed, which eliminates loads of potential issues

Nice sentiment, but sadly, cost is the true governing factor. It's not just the CP's, the average punter just wants it cheap as chips.

I realise that, but as usual that's because we've let everyone expect it for sod all.

If we'd kept BB pricing as it was when it came out, sure adoption would have taken longer, but the revenue and profitability would be higher and thus overall ability to invest and make things better higher too. But instead everyone plays race to the bottom.

Sadly BT Retail are as much a part of the problem as anything else.

What would happen if BT retail kept prices high? Users would select alternate ISPs which would result in the overall BT profit being lower which would also result in less money for BT to invest in overall infrastructure including FTTC/P &c. So, BT retail were forced to reduce prices which as you say is not good for long term investment.

In reply to a post by MHC:

What would happen if BT retail kept prices high? Users would select alternate ISPs which would result in the overall BT profit being lower which would also result in less money for BT to invest in overall infrastructure including FTTC/P &c. So, BT retail were forced to reduce prices which as you say is not good for long term investment.

Most of those "other ISPs" (unless you mean Virgin Cable) use the Openreach infrastructure anyway, so there would have been the same amount of money for infrastructure investment, no ?

Unless BT retail ISPs profits are ploughed back into Openreach, and not into the ISP side (ie, higher capacity peering connections).

All of BT's profits from every division go to BT plc. Each division puts forward an investment programme for the next 1, 2, 5 & 10 years and the BT board allocates funding to those programmes based specific criteria. So, if BT retail turn in less profit then there will be less for investment across the business - that would result in less available for OR and OR would have to reduce investment across all programmes. And if Retail profits are enormous there will be more for investment by OR (and to shareholders).

Just because a programme is underpinning a profit line for a division does not mean that division will get the money back for re-investment.

In reply to a post by MHC:

All of BT's profits from every division go to BT plc. Each division puts forward an investment programme for the next 1, 2, 5 & 10 years and the BT board allocates funding to those programmes based specific criteria. So, if BT retail turn in less profit then there will be less for investment across the business - that would result in less available for OR and OR would have to reduce investment across all programmes. And if Retail profits are enormous there will be more for investment by OR (and to shareholders).
Just because a programme is underpinning a profit line for a division does not mean that division will get the money back for re-investment.

That makes logical sense, cheers.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by MHC:

What would happen if BT retail kept prices high? Users would select alternate ISPs which would result in the overall BT profit being lower which would also result in less money for BT to invest in overall infrastructure including FTTC/P &c. So, BT retail were forced to reduce prices which as you say is not good for long term investment.

Most of those "other ISPs" (unless you mean Virgin Cable) use the Openreach infrastructure anyway, so there would have been the same amount of money for infrastructure investment, no ?

Unless BT retail ISPs profits are ploughed back into Openreach, and not into the ISP side (ie, higher capacity peering connections).

If we use that theory why do BT keep BT retail in existance? why not get rid of it, sack all the support and admin staff and just profit of BTw and openreach since apparently BT retail makes no money anyway according to talktalk.

I agree with the above poster a race to the bottom is not good for the market, only good for those who think anything above £10 a month for broadband is a ripoff.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

If we use that theory why do BT keep BT retail in existance? why not get rid of it, sack all the support and admin staff and just profit of BTw and openreach since apparently BT retail makes no money anyway according to talktalk.

If BT retail wasn't around, Talktalk and Sky would probably charge more for fibre, then BTw and Openreach would sell less product and lose money because customers find it too expensive.