Cabinet commercial criteria

I live in a fairly new estate in Cheltenham (built 2007-2010), connected to cabinet 82 (GL52 5GH).

I've been trying for a long time to find out why my cabinet is not included in any plans by Openreach ... I've even sent them emails directly and the best I've got is probably a standard reply saying "The rollout is based on the commercial criteria for each cabinet. Unfortunately when assessed cabinet sscmn82, to which your line is connected, did not met these and is not included in the rollout programme".

Now, does anybody have any idea what this commercial criteria is? Cabinet 82 covers quite a few postcodes and I think all the houses in my estate are connected to it (must be several hundred houses, my estimates).

Almost everybody around my estate seems to be on FTTC or FTTB and it�s highly frustrating and depressing to not be even included in any plans � Any info greatly appreciated!

As the commercial project is targeting around 2/3rds coverage with £2.5bn then the ones that cost a few pounds more end up not being done, sometimes the decisions are revisited.

Number of premises served via cab
Cost of installing second cab and futher distance equals more underground ducting
Cost of getting power (can be very variable)
Cost of getting fibre to the cab e.g. if existing ducting is known to be full or blocked cost can be a lot higher

A look on google maps shows a building site, that looks a mixed commercial one, or has a lot of homes appeared since then.

Google satellite images are very old (~2007), street view is less than a year old. Commercial buildings would be only Sainsburys.

I think cabinet 82 is this http://goo.gl/maps/j5L5O

As you can see there are 3 boxes, doesn't this imply they serve a large number of lines?
Also, I can not see the location or power being a problem there ...

I don't think it is those cabs, but may be this one

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.902329,-2.047952&sp...

that is on Redmarley Road.

The number is normally stencilled on the cab so non-local engineers can be sure they are at the right one.

Has the council adopted the roads yet? As some developers can be odd (or want a chunk of money) for adding extra cabinets beyond the minimum required to provide telephone services.

Looking at number of properties, some may be Exchange Only, and the other cabs outside Sainsbury may also be being used, and the distance means lower speeds. Thus to serve the area may require a number of FTTC cabs

According to the BT spreadsheet that cabinet passes the following postcodes and covers 50% or more of them:

GL501EF
GL525GB
GL525FP
GL525GH
GL525GA
GL525GG
GL525GJ
GL525GE
GL525GD
GL525GF
GL525FW
GL525FR

This gives a coverage of about 379 premises passed.

Best guess is that some of the construction happened after BT counted the premises so they think there are less there. 5GH and 5GA alone are 117 premises s oif they were built after the count that'd certainly have tipped the balance.

Interesting ... you could be right, I've missed that box. I wonder what the other 3 at the boottom of the estate are? Those 3 have no numbers on them, I'll check this one out when I go home tonight.

There were issues with adopting the roads but as far as I know everything was sorted out last year ... this is good point, I need to confirm if they are actually adopted now. Is there an easy way to find out?

According to this doc it servers quite a few postcodes in my estate (if not all) and very few outside but you could be right about the large area and more FTTC cabs required.

The 2011 data shows GL501EF is split

Cab P82 was down as coming soon back then
Cab P86 enabled

and is some 1.8 miles from the development which is also served by cabinet P82 (GL52 5GH)
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=GL501EF&daddr=C...


Was using http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/fibre/checker.php and if someone has newer data am happy to roll it into that.

Anything below GH and GA were finished in the first stage which was about 2008. I can't believe BT counted the premises so early. The exchange was enabled in 2011 if I remember correctly.
Second stage (Yorkley and Brockweir road upwards) were built sometime around 2009 and 2010 ... but all done by the end of 2010 as far as I know.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The 2011 data shows GL501EF is split
and is some 1.8 miles from the development which is also served by cabinet P82 (GL52 5GH)

That clearly can not be right, too far away ... I think it's easier to get information about these cabinets from GCHQ down the road than from Openreach/BT
BTW, this estate was built on the old GCHQ location ... I can only guess what net connections they used to have here ... if only they left one cable in my back garden

it may be that the first properties were feed by a cable from cab 82 which may be closer to GL501EF and latter development got its own cabinet or two.

In reply to a post by horeaa:

Interesting ... you could be right, I've missed that box. I wonder what the other 3 at the boottom of the estate are? Those 3 have no numbers on them, I'll check this one out when I go home tonight.

The label on the manhole covers in front of them will also be a clue. The cabinets will likely connect into those boxes.

There were issues with adopting the roads but as far as I know everything was sorted out last year ... this is good point, I need to confirm if they are actually adopted now. Is there an easy way to find out?

The council will know if they are now responsible for them. I guess the highways department is a good start.

According to this doc it servers quite a few postcodes in my estate (if not all) and very few outside but you could be right about the large area and more FTTC cabs required.

As your postcodes were included in that old spreadsheet, it suggests that the number of properties were counted in the 2010-2011 timeframe - although they probably counted lines, rather than properties. So they could still be running off old numbers.

The usual guesstimate here is that a cabinet needs to have of the order of 300-400 lines to get included, and we've seen ones in the high 200's get left out.

These kind of issues - uncounted properties on new-ish developments - are the kind of thing that your local BDUK project want to know about. Any place they can get BT to cover commercially means that somewhere else gets included in the county project.

Certainly there is evidence that this has been done - the Warwickshire project included an item in their newsletters that such negotiation had added 45,000 properties to the commercial rollout!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

it may be that the first properties were feed by a cable from cab 82 which may be closer to GL501EF and latter development got its own cabinet or two.

Possible, as I have no evidence, but I remember first properties (including demo houses) were built where GL525GB shows on the map ... and that postcode is split with cab 185, so I say it's more likely before 82 was installed, cab 185 was used.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

The usual guesstimate here is that a cabinet needs to have of the order of 300-400 lines to get included, and we've seen ones in the high 200's get left out.

These kind of issues - uncounted properties on new-ish developments - are the kind of thing that your local BDUK project want to know about. Any place they can get BT to cover commercially means that somewhere else gets included in the county project.

BDUK for my area is http://www.fastershire.com. I've sent them an email but I didn't get anything back. Not a great start. They only talk about villages and no mention about not spots in towns ... anyway at this stage they don't seems to know anything about the order they will do an area. I hope you are right and my cabinet will be included by BDUK ... even if I'm surprised to see such a large estate left out by Openreach.

Can you email me [email protected] and I'll pass this onto BT and see if they can use a stick to prod the spreadsheet people.

Include contact details for yourself and the list of postcodes covered by the estate.

In reply to a post by horeaa:

Now, does anybody have any idea what this commercial criteria is?

Only BT know what their criteria are. Like all private companies they will endeavour to keep that secret to avoid their competitors finding out.

If you can work with your local council you might be able to find out what kind of subsidy would swing the balance in your favour. I believe it's been done before. In effect you take on some of the installation costs making it viable for BT.

Also as other have suggested, contact BDUK.

But ultimately it's BT's money and BT's decision. It's not like there's a legal obligation to upgrade your cabinet. It's something BT are choosing to do of their own volition and as such they can pick and choose where and when as the mood takes them.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 13-Jun-13 13:22:01)

In reply to a post by Andrue:

Only BT know what their criteria are. Like all private companies they will endeavour to keep that secret to avoid their competitors finding out.

...

But ultimately it's BT's money and BT's decision. It's not like there's a legal obligation to upgrade your cabinet. It's something BT are choosing to do of their own volition and as such they can pick and choose where and when as the mood takes them.

Competitors? What competitors!? Virgin has no cables in my estate. There is no competition ... it's a monopoly and that is the problem!
I understand that you cannot force them to enable a cabinet or another but to provide some information about some of their decisions should be the minimum they could do, especially when going from 2Mbps to 60Mbps could be, for some, a life changing experience. In my case I think they have taken the wrong decision by not counting all the houses after they�ve been built, but having no official data from them I can not be sure if that's the case. The lack of information it's the part that frustrates me most.

Virgin Media on are on the very edge of the estate, so just as easy for them to expand to new builds and gain lots more triple play customers.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Virgin Media on are on the very edge of the estate, so just as easy for them to expand to new builds and gain lots more triple play customers.

They could, and I wish they would, but probably they won't. I used to live down the road in a "Virgin area". We were in a property with 8 flats (all separate entries). 4 could get virgin and 4 couldn't. My flat couldn't but nevertheless I was getting lot of advertising from them. When I've asked them to install it ... "hmm, ooops, we can't as we need to put another cable underground and it's not worth it". So, if they can't be bothered to install a 5 meter cable to reach the next door flat why would they bother with this new estate where they need kms of cables? Anyway they should have done it by now as the roads were finished only in 2011. I doubt that the council will allow them to dig brand new tarmacked roads. As I said, I hope they would do it but I don't see it happening ... so, as it stands BT have monopoly in my estate.

Which goes back to the developer not thinking that it might be a sales feature to add:

Cable TV with superfast broadband available in all properties on the estate, by working with Virgin Media during the build phase.

Advantage to developer would be less Sky dishes spoiling the lines of their pretty new estate.

Your situation is down to lots of peoples decisions, where broadband is a long way down the list of priorities.

I couldn't agree more ... just to shame the developer: Taylor Wimpey.

I work in IT so having a good internet connection would make a massive difference: I could work from home, I could run a website, I could start my own business, etc ...

The only real choice is satellite broadband, more expensive and with its own drawbacks but if nothing happens with cabinet 82 by the end of the year I'll have to seriously consider it.

GL50 1EF is 4 premises in total so I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Virgin Media on are on the very edge of the estate, so just as easy for them to expand to new builds and gain lots more triple play customers.

Where developers engage them and give them infrastructure they do.

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-Jun-13 15:05:03)

In reply to a post by horeaa:

Competitors? What competitors!? Virgin has no cables in my estate. There is no competition ... it's a monopoly and that is the problem!

But (and I'm playing Devil's advocate a bit here) that just shows there's a problem. Especially since Mr Saffron has pointed out the VM does exist elsewhere in your town. It appears that there are two CPs (Communication Providers) who are unable to justify providing you with a better service.

The point I'm trying to make here is that you seem to be implying that BT are somehow refusing to upgrade your cabinet just because they hate you and that if only you could see the figures you could prove that there was a case force them to do what you want. That makes no sense to me. BT are declining to upgrade your cabinet for sound, well thought out business reasons. Those same reasons appear to also be preventing VM from improving your service.

It's annoying, yes. But I think you need to accept that these companies have good reasons for their (in)actions. I just think you'll make more progress if you accept that and work with them rather than trying to attack and question their procedures

In reply to a post by horeaa:

I couldn't agree more ... just to shame the developer: Taylor Wimpey.

You won't be the first person to shame them

I work in IT so having a good internet connection would make a massive difference: I could work from home, I could run a website, I could start my own business, etc ...

Depending what you actually do you might not need a high speed connection to work from home. For the past two months our office (three software developers) has been in closer than normal collaboration with developers in Poland and the US. We've been forced to do a lot of our work on Virtual Machines in the US rather than using the 'mirror' setup we'd normally rely on.

Despite the fact our office currently(*) only has poor 3.5Mb/s down, 1Mb/s up bonded ADSL connection it's been fine. RDP is a wonderful technology and most of our systems are internet based so it's not been a problem. As for the rest of what you suggest - there's an argument for anything server related being best placed near the edge of the network rather at people's homes. More relevant though is the fact that most people don't need to do any of that. RDP and Cloud working caters for working from home and all you need there is reliability. Raw speed doesn't often have to be an issue.

But that's by the by. I'm not trying to suggest that you shouldn't want something better. I got FTTC even though I didn't need it so you keep pushing. It's just that broadband is fairly low on infrastructure priorities and I can see why. I'd love to know how much its presence or lack thereof actually impacts house prices. I have a feeling it doesn't make much difference.

(*)We now have a leased line with 10/10 and it's active. Just waiting on our IT to find time to come and transfer over our VPN and put us on the corporate VOIP system.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 13-Jun-13 15:18:09)

I live in an estate that stated to be built in 2008 and is nearly completed with just under 500 homes, it is served by cab 31, off Mickleover exchange. Last year the checker started to show RFS date of 30-Sep-12, this came and went and it changed to 31-Dec-12, that also came and went. Then we had 31-Mar-13 and you can guess what happened. Now we have 30-Jun-13 and nothing has been done still so I'm guessing it will also come and go!

I think the whole process is a joke, why give dates if you cannot meet them?

Must be a curse over cabinet 82, had a lot of issues in my own right with one though thanks to a lot of perseverance it became clear Openreach had no good reasons for their inaction this time around and the procedures had failed.

VM's reasons are simple, they budget 300GBP per home passed and above this level don't consider upgrades viable. When I queried VM on upgrading a new estate they gave me their full cost breakdown and showed it to be about 524GBP / home passed.

Ok Andrue, long answer coming ... Virgin Media is known to only offer cable in parts of Cheltenham and as far as I know is the same network they had long time ago. There are areas where there is FTTC and no Virgin cable and other way around. I can't not see why our estate would be less profitable than any other estate in the vicinity. On the contrary, the fact we have tiny gardens and there are a few block of flats it means more households per square mile so should be more profitable than old houses with large gardens and being far apart. I think you trust their business decisions too much, I don�t And that�s not because they hate me, it�s probably because they don�t take all the facts into account.

I'm really trying to work with these companies but that's the main problem ... they don't want to hear from guys like me ... and no useful information is provided. It�s not easy even to find direct contact numbers. You'll be surprised on the kind of answers I got... one that I remember now was from a BT employee that was trying to convince me that the cabinets numbers to be upgraded are chosen randomly


My upload speed is the main issue � I can only get 0.6Mbps reliably (LLU Be). Remote desktop to work kind of works but the lag becomes irritating after a while and it slows my productivity a lot.
Uploading an HD video anywhere takes ages and almost takes offline all my devices while uploading. Even sending photos to family and friends becomes a pain. I�m on almost the same broadband speed as 10 years ago � but in the meantime the size of media increased significantly.
I get what you say about cloud computing and all that but the costs can be tremendous for a start-up especially if it involves video recording and other high data transfers. It�s much cheaper to use some of my existing home infrastructure and once the idea generates money all can move into the cloud. Anyway, I�m daydreaming again.

In reply to a post by horeaa:

I'm really trying to work with these companies but that's the main problem ... they don't want to hear from guys like me

I feel that isn't true. Andrew has already asked you to PM him and I suggest you do so. My development in central London similarly has no access to either VM or FTTC due to being all EO Lines. Andrew asked me to PM him with full details which I did. Since then I have been contacted by BT and they are due to carry out a site survey early next month.

My advice is to listen to the advice you are being given rather than moan, as I did, about BT and their inflexibility.

The dates show that at least it is coming to the area, rather than never coming. Dates change as other areas have delays or you have delays with other elements like power or ducting on your cab.

With some 30,000 cabinets built to date (rough figure) there are always going to be some that are messed about.

I had the email a couple of hours ago, and passed it on, with some comments about what was evident from streetview.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I had the email a couple of hours ago, and passed it on, with some comments about what was evident from streetview.

Thanks Andrew. I can confirm that cabinet 82 is the one you suggested on Street View. I can't believe I walked passed it so many times without noticing it I probably already had my mind fixed on those at the bottom of the estate.

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-Jun-13 18:30:25)

It is worth highlighting this information to BT, and if Andrew can pass it on even better.

It's a vast project and some cabinets are going to get overlooked for what ever reasons.

When I started mapping our local area, there was one cabinet that seemed to have been over looked (NDBRO 5), it covered a large residential area, probably around 500 - 600 houses but it was not scheduled in the 2011 data. I could see no reason why it wasn't.

I emailed Open Reach and the CEO of BT group, I got bog standard replies from both to start with, but then a later email came back and told me it was planned for March this year, it's now live.

Now I can only guess at whether my email made a difference or not, they did also do another cabinet which wasn't planned the other side of town, and I hadn't mentioned that one so they may have just picked them up in a later survey or stage.

I don't believe it is ever coming. I know of one person so far on the site who has moved due to the lack of FTTC broadband!

All the other cabs round the area have been done nearly 3 years ago now. When roadworks.org showed the activity for FTTC nothing happened!

Even speaking to people 'in the know' they have no idea why it's not being done!

I agree. Any developer that doesn't do this or have it on the agenda is bonkers these days. If even 5% of people don't move into a flat/house in a new build because they didn't, that's going to cost them £100ks of lost profit.

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

If even 5% of people don't move into a flat/house in a new build because they didn't, that's going to cost them £100ks of lost profit.

I don't follow that logic. It's not like there's only a hundred people ever going to buy and 5 choose not to so 5% of units remain empty. The most you could say is that it might require 105 viewings to complete the sale instead of 100.

Lack of broadband can only impact profits if the price has to be dropped in order to compensate. Given the way house prices have held up in recent years (especially in the south) I don't see that happening. I haven't moved house in a long time but I know a few people who have and none of them mentioned broadband as a factor. I do watch things like Location, Location, Location and I can't remember anyone ever mentioning connectivity on those shows either.

I think there are so many other far more important considerations like schools, shops crime rates, parking, decoration etc. that connectivity is rarely considered. That wouldn't be the case for me. If I move I'll want to be within 500 metres as the cable runs to my cabinet

Edited by Andrue (Fri 14-Jun-13 19:52:05)

My brother just moved house, and he didn't even give it thought, I think mainly because he's always had good broadband speeds, and not suffered with very low speeds. Fortunately he can get FTTC if he wants it at his new house.

I would certainly be making sure I was close to a cabinet if we ever moved, and that fibre was available - would be a major downer only to find the cab was full!

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

I agree. Any developer that doesn't do this or have it on the agenda is bonkers these days. If even 5% of people don't move into a flat/house in a new build because they didn't, that's going to cost them £100ks of lost profit.

If you want to make developers pay attention, all you have to do is wander into a showhome, ask about fibre provision, and walk out if they don't have FTTP pre-organised. You don't need any true ambition to buy, but you do send a message...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Has the council adopted the roads yet? As some developers can be odd (or want a chunk of money) for adding extra cabinets beyond the minimum required to provide telephone services.

Unexpected surprise:
"Further to your recent email, as yet the roads on the Battledown Park (GCHQ Oakley) development have not been adopted by the Council as highway maintainable at the public expense. The Developer, Taylor Wimpey, does intend to offer the roads for adoption but first there are certain things he must do before this can happen i.e. carry out road safety audits, complete any remedial works to the road and street lighting, submit as-built plans and sewer adoption certificate etc. The Developer is currently progressing this matter but unfortunately I am unable to offer a timescale for the adoption of the roads.
...
Gloucestershire County Council"

Maybe Taylor Wimpey not only has failed to think about broadband/cable during build but also is sabotaging the installation years later?

We live in Great Missenden, and it appears our cabinet that will not be connected, unless we pay BT £38000, in which case they may do it within the next 18 months.

As it is we are stuck with ADSL2 which gives us a great download speed of between 500 and, on a good day when no-one else is on-line, 2.0.

Not the greatest speed for streaming, so don't think we will be taking up BTs offer to change to them to get BT Sports for free!