So I bought and unlocked my HG 612, what next?

As the title covers I bought it and unlocked it. My speed has dropped to 25-26Mbs although via telnet commands in the tutorial pdf the line supposedly supports 32Mbs.

I have the suite of logging tools but I don't really know where to go next. I don't know why the speed has dropped I did reattach the ECI modem for a while to see if that made a difference but it didn't appear to.

Can someone help point me in the right direction? I have recorded some stats but I am not entirely sure what to do with the information or how to read it correctly.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

run this in telnet and paste back the results.

xdslcmd info --show

No problem Thank you for replying.

# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6310 Kbps, Downstream rate = 32820 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 6204 Kbps, Downstream rate = 27887 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.1
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 11.6 3.8
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 63 194
M: 1 1
T: 64 5
R: 16 16
S: 0.0730 0.9988
L: 8766 1690
D: 443 1
I: 80 211
N: 80 211
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 6048082 277379
OHFErr: 14 45
RS: 1161231486 3597618
RSCorr: 153338 102
RSUnCorr: 327 0

Path 0
HEC: 67 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 1139829238 0
Data Cells: 3016669 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 5 45
SES: 0 0
UAS: 18 18
AS: 21279

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 3.50 16.23
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 54.78 19.22

Bitswap: 8052 0

Hope this gives you more insight than me.

Btw. Why does the TB Speed Test report speeds of UL 5.26 DL25.83 Latency 29ms? This seems to differ from the results above.



http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtestresults.html?... ----> latest test

Thanks for helping.

you are interleaved on the downstream so this gives extra latency and your sync speed will be below the attainable speed due to FEC.

Can you post the results of

xdslcmd info --pbParams

Working test link http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Your actual connection speeds are in the Path line, and the downstream is so much lower than the Max because, as Chrysalis says, your line is set to Interleaved, probably because of noise and so errors on the line.

Unless you are on Sky or TalkTalk as the ISP there is then a thing called the IP Profile applied, which restricts your downstream throughput speed to 96.79% of the downstream rate in the Path line.

27887 x 0.9679 = 26992kbps.

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

Here are the requested results:

# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6334 Kbps, Downstream rate = 32820 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 6204 Kbps, Downstream rate = 27887 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 6334 kbps 32820 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 3.8 dBm 11.7 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 4.1 44.1 64.4 N/A 20.0 55.9 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 4.1 44.1 0.0 N/A 20.0 55.9 N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.9 6.0 0.0 N/A 6.4 6.3 N/A
TX Power(dBm): -3.7 2.0 -4.1 N/A 10.5 5.5 N/A


Unfortunately I am with BT and they will do nothing to help unless the line is functioning outside their anticipated parameters. Worst ISP I've ever had by some margin. So what if anything can I practically do to deal with any of this?

The speed of the connection has dropped down to what we are seeing now only recently, beforehand it was in the low 30's. I don't understand this? Is it possible interleaving was absent before?

On several occasions recently the connection has just locked up, crashed, failed or whatever you'd call it and the only recourse was to restart the modem and hub.

My TB profile has results of the Speed Test spanning several months and the trend has been steadily downward from an initial 34.21/7.64 to what we are seeing now.

I didn't really anticipate all this bother when moving to fibre and BT my previous adsl connection showed little or no variation and the ISP was much better too.


I am very grateful to everyone who has read and posted replies. Many thanks.

In reply to a post by Opabinia:

My TB profile has results of the Speed Test spanning several months and the trend has been steadily downward from an initial 34.21/7.64 to what we are seeing now.

I didn't really anticipate all this bother when moving to fibre and BT my previous adsl connection showed little or no variation and the ISP was much better too.

It just sounds like crosstalk problems. Very common as more and more people take up the service on your cabinet. Hopefully it won't drop much further. There is a technology called 'Vectoring' that BT are trialling at the moment which would hopefully help you but it's probably at least a year off implementation.

You should definitely get on to BT if your router is crashing - that's something they can fix. I doubt it'll get fix your speed but it should be able to run 24/7. As for their quality as an ISP - you can't really blame them for this speed drop as it looks to just be the way your line is. A good ISP will try and get Openreach to come out and investigate but there are specific criteria that have to be met for that to happen and I'm not seeing that in your stats. You might be able to agree to pay for an engineer to come out but I suspect it'd be a waste of money. Seems like you're just quite a way from your cabinet and your line is picking up noise from your neighbours. Nothing much anyone can do about either of those for now,

Thanks for the reply.

So this quite dramatic drop of 4-5 Mbs is due to crosstalk on the line from increased user load? It almost sounds as if the line cannot support what is being asked of it in terms of supporting that number of people. In which case is it not reasonable to question BT/Openreach not doing something about it?

I live in a small village on Anglesey and although I don't know how many people are attached to my cabinet and of those how many even have a fibre connection it sounds not unlike the same story we have heard for a while that we are being sold products with promises of performance that the infrastructure cannot support.

I'm still left paying for a product that doesn't do what I was promised it would. I will contact BT once again and no doubt be sent from phone operator to phone operator to be told the same thing in a different voice in a slightly different way and it will all amount to nothing we can do or are going to do.

I wish there was something I could do having access to the HG612 but it would seem not.

I'm very grateful to everyone who has taken time to read and answer. Very many thanks.

Cross talk is a fact of life for RF signals down a cable, work on Vectoring to use fast maths to alleviate a lot of this is ongoing, i.e. a couple of years away.

Failing that full FTTP is an option, just the cost and time to roll-out is the issue. Or put another way, FTTC now, or wait longer or spend a lot more to get full Fibre.

The issue might not be cross talk, could be a neighbour with a new electrical appliance creating interference, wander around with a battery AM radio at 600KHz and you'll be surprised how much noise everything makes in the home.

In reply to a post by Opabinia:

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 6334 kbps 32820 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 3.8 dBm 11.7 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 4.1 44.1 64.4 N/A 20.0 55.9 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 4.1 44.1 0.0 N/A 20.0 55.9 N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.9 6.0 0.0 N/A 6.4 6.3 N/A
TX Power(dBm): -3.7 2.0 -4.1 N/A 10.5 5.5 N/A

The problem seems to be something to do with the attenuation which rises sharply as the frequency increases. This may indicate your line is aluminium rather than copper.

In reply to a post by Opabinia:

So this quite dramatic drop of 4-5 Mbs is due to crosstalk on the line from increased user load? It almost sounds as if the line cannot support what is being asked of it in terms of supporting that number of people. In which case is it not reasonable to question BT/Openreach not doing something about it?

Whilst a drop from 34 to 27 Mbit/s downstream speed is frustrating, does that have any practical effect apart from showing up on speed tests? It's a 20% loss of your original speed, but the extra time taken for most tasks will be small and unless you are regularly using your connection at full capacity (for example if there are multiple users), you probably won't notice it.


As MrSaffron says, the cause may be interference, in which case some hunting around with a radio may not go amiss. BT Openreach can do little about RF ingress to their network and have a fairly high threshold for getting involved in such matters. A bit of self-help may be a good start.


If the cause is, indeed, crosstalk, that's a fact of life with FTTC. BT Openreach are doing something about this - as Andrue said, they're working on deploying vectoring, which will help with crosstalk related problems. However, deployment is some way off.

Initially, if you're one of the first connected to an FTTC cabinet, you may get some way in excess of the estimated speed for your line. This is, in part, because the estimate allows for crosstalk that may come along later. You will never get the maximum speed shown by the modem's diagnostics, because you always need some noise margin to ensure stability.

Crosstalk is a matter of geometry. Your speed can drop significantly when one further activation is made if that user's line is in an unfavourable geometric relationship to yours within the cables.


In the longer term, the BT FTTC deployment is enabling for 'deeper fibre' technologies. Fibre to the Distribution Point is being worked on by various companies but remains in the research stage. Fibre to the Premises is possible by building out from the cabinets. At the moment, FTTDP is at the research stage and both are cost prohibitive for widespread deployment, but that may well change over time.

Eventually, anyone in an FTTC served area will be able to order FTTP On Demand, though the cost is so high as to be uneconomic for most people (typically £1000-1500 install cost, plus a minimum 36 months on the expensive 330/30 Mbit/s product). The high costs, long commitment and relatively low FTTPoD upstream speed make the current product unattractive to businesses who may otherwise consider it. Hopefully, as FTTP On Demand becomes a fully commercial product, BT Openreach will find economies of scale and realise it's a neat way of making end-users pay to deploy their FTTP network.


In other words, FTTC is not the last word, but a stepping stone to the future. It provides a cost-effective way of rolling out faster speeds to a sizeable proportion of the country, whilst moving fibre deeper into the BT Openreach network. In time, that fibre will be leveraged for future faster technologies.

_{Edit: Corrected three slight errors in the penultimate paragraph.}

Edited by deleted (Fri 27-Sep-13 20:58:48)

Well I guess I must be in the unlucky position of being in an unfavourable position because within the last 2 weeks the speed has dropped to current from 31/32Mbs which it had held steady at for some considerable time....well months at least.

BT did promise me a speed of 32Mbs which I have in black and white and was the reason they were reluctant to pursue my concerns about noise and latency before because I was getting that. Now I'm not.

I do appreciate the problems with noise from electronics and am aware of the problems it causes or has the potential to cause. I simply want what I'm promised and what I pay for. No a 20% reduction is much and yes there are frequently 3 people using the connection at once, including a son making video calls to his girlfriend in Canada. I also use Usenet. But it doesn't really matter what I use it for does it I'm not paying for a 20% reduction in 2 weeks.

Sorry if I sound petulant but it's been nothing but problems and I'm pretty fed up by now.

Thanks for all the explanations. I get it. I'm stuffed.

You have all been very helpful as always. I'm very grateful.

If you push hard the response will be 'accept that speed or if you don't we will let you leave your contract'

The DLM system runs all the time and if it decides to slow you down it has a reason, not everyone will agree with that reason of course. It might in time decide to put you back up to a higher speed.

As for the promise, it would be interesting to see the wording, as no provider can ever PROMISE a speed, even on FTTP they cannot promise your speed, the connection speed, but anything else is affected by what others are doing, i.e. shared medium of the Internet.

Post deleted by RobertoS

... relatively low FTTPoD downstream speed make the current product unattractive to businesses ....

Edit: Corrected two slight errors in the penultimate paragraph.

"upstream"?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

... relatively low FTTPoD downstream speed make the current product unattractive to businesses ....

Edit: Corrected two slight errors in the penultimate paragraph.

"upstream"?

OK - that's error number 3 in that paragraph that is now corrected. I think my brain went on strike.

For completeness, the two errors I've previously corrected I'd initially written 300/30, when FTTPoD is actually 330/30 (confirmation on the BT Openreach price list - the upstream speed really is less than 10% of the downstream, the same as the top tier of FTTP that isn't on demand).

I also wrote FTTC users can have FTTPoD, which was misleading. Anyone in an FTTC served area should be able to order FTTPoD once it's fully launched - there's no requirement to have FTTC first. I'm not sure how strict this will be - whether you have to be at an address served by an FTTC enabled PCP, or whether you can have the network built out to you from an FTTC cabinet if you pay the construction charges.

FTPoD doesn't come from the cabinet . It comes from the nearest(?) aggregation point to the premises. AIUI cabinets are connected to aggregation points as well.

Indeed.

All FTTPoD is subject to survey, giving BT Openreach a chance to consider how to build the network in the most appropriate way, and to decline the order if there's no appropriate way ahead.

The thought that lay behind my slightly sloppy language was whether there's any clarity yet on whether the FTTPoD requirement to be in an FTTx served area means any metallic pairs at your address must come from a PCP with an FTTC twin (albeit potentially too far from the PCP to get a usable VDSL2 signal), or whether FTTPoD is available to anyone within the footprint of an FTTx enabled exchange with an aggregation node sufficiently close. In other words, is FTTPoD going to be an option for those on EO lines or whose PCPs failed to gain funding for FTTC under the commercial criteria and BDUK?


It's conceivable that BT Openreach may elect to start a particular FTTPoD build other than at the nearest aggregation point for sound network engineering reasons such as redundancy or load balancing, though in that case I'd expect construction charges to be levied based on the nearest aggregation point as the ducting runs.

AIUI, FTTPoD is only available to those who are already connected to a fibre-enabled cabinet. Also, the installation charge is based on the radial distance from that cabinet to the premises.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

AIUI, FTTPoD is only available to those who are already connected to a fibre-enabled cabinet. Also, the installation charge is based on the radial distance from that cabinet to the premises.

Possibly the best information we have is in the aforementioned BT Openreach FTTPoD price list.

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDeta...:

Openreach will calculate the relevant distance band for an Order using the radial distance from the relevant aggregation node and calculated using the details recorded by Openreach.

This is clear that it's radial (i.e. straight line) distance from the aggregation node that determines the variable part of the construction charge. The aggregation node may well be inside / immediately under / next to the nearest FTTC cabinet, but could be elsewhere. If Openreach add aggregation nodes during FTTPoD builds, it's possible that the nearest aggregation node may be closer to you than the nearest FTTC cabinet.

What is not clear is what happens if Openreach decide the network should be built out from another, more distant, aggregation node. Do they quote based on the radial distance from the serving node, or the closest one?

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDeta...:

96% of premises are expected to be within 2km of the nearest NGA Aggregation Node, and these will be covered by distance bands A to G.

Approximately 4% of premises are 2km or further from the exchange, and although we are able to provide service to these premises, the costs to do so reflect the greater distances over which we would need to build the network to provide service.

This suggests, but is not conclusive, that you can have FTTPoD anywhere within the footprint of an enabled exchange, so long as you're prepared to pay the construction cost relevant to the distance to the nearest aggregation node. If the straight line distance is over 2km, it's "price on application".

I'm not sure what the exchange has got to do with it?

Anyway

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibret...:

Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) on Demand will enable you to offer 330/30 Mbit/s broadband speeds to customers served by a GEA-FTTC enabled cabinet

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I'm not sure what the exchange has got to do with it?

The word 'exchange' came from the Openreach FTTPoD price list quote.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Anyway

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibret...:

Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) on Demand will enable you to offer 330/30 Mbit/s broadband speeds to customers served by a GEA-FTTC enabled cabinet

That seems pretty conclusive, but might be unnecessarily restrictive if applied strictly, especially when it comes to EO lines. There may be a nearby aggregation node with ducting all the way, but because the (completely irrelevant for FTTP) metallic cables run straight to the MDF, strict application of the 'must be on a FTTC enabled cabinet' rule means you cannot order FTTPoD.


The whole way that fact sheet (dated April 2013 in the PDF metadata) is written is that FTTPoD is a speed enhancement product for those within the FTTC footprint. If that is the sole aim of FTTPoD, the limited number of takers likely to result makes it hard to understand why Openreach bothered to develop FTTPoD at all.


Those who can already get even modest speed FTTC may well save money bonding two or even three FTTC lines together rather than opting for FTTPoD.

The minimum wholesale cost for three years of 330/30 FTTPoD is £2068 plus VAT, and there will likely be additional distance-based install costs to include for FTTPoD (I've only included the lowest £200 figure in the £2068, which assumes an aggregation node no more than 200m away).

A three year 40/10 FTTC connection is £356 plus VAT, and a three year 80/20 FTTC connection is £450.20 plus VAT - in both cases you need to add £298.31 plus VAT per line to install and rent the MPF for three years (I'm assuming MPFs are available without excess construction costs). If you work it out, it's cheaper to take three 'naked' 40/10 FTTC lines over three years than a single 330/30 FTTPoD line, though the FTTC option has lower up-front costs and a greater rental cost.

Before opting for FTTPoD it's clearly a case of working through the maths based on the available FTTC speeds (no point ordering 80/20 FTTC if the line can't exceed 40/10), speed requirement, existing and future PSTN requirements and length of commitment.

Bonded FTTC only involves a 12 month commitment and could, in a limited number of scenarios, offer a faster upstream speed than 30Mbit/s at a cost-effective price. I'm sure AAISP and some of their competitors could provide such a connection. If FTTPoD becomes more cost-effective, the bonded FTTC lines can be ceased after a year and replaced with FTTPoD.


Most who are too far from the FTTC cabinet for bonded FTTC to be feasible (or for FTTC to work at all) will likely find FTTPoD so expensive as to be unaffordable, especially as the only FTTP speed offered once installed is the expensive 330/30 offering. Depending on requirements, bonded ADSL or EFM might be more cost-effective, though neither can be defined as superfast. Some kind of wireless option or satellite are also worth considering.


Some who are close to an aggregation node but outside the FTTC footprint may well bite Openreach's arm off for FTTPoD, especially if the lower speed tiers are added to the FTTPoD line-up. If someone a couple of streets away from the FTTC footprint could pay £2000-3000 one-off installation charges for FTTPoD and then take the 80/20 service he would take if he was within the FTTC footprint, that may be a very cost-effective alternative to moving, even if there was a premium added to the ongoing FTTP rental for the first 36 months to go towards the construction costs.

Openreach clearly must subject any such FTTPoD request for premises outside the FTTC footprint to a reasonableness test. There may be perfectly good network topology reasons to reject out of FTTC footprint requests even with a nearby aggregation node, but a blanket "you can't get FTTC, so you can't have FTTPoD either" seems really harsh.

Fascinating stuff!

Actually "promised" were their words last time I endured a phone call with them.

I'm certainly in no mood to throw good money after bad even if I had it to throw.