Best way to use FTTC with an extension line?

Currently, I'm using an extension line going to my upstairs study to connect to my ADSL2+ service. I wish to keep using broadband from this location when I switch to FTTC (and I want a wired solution, not wireless). However apparently you have to have the VDSL modem next to the master socket, and mine is downstairs. What are my options in using my upstairs extension for a FTTC connection? Can I ask for my extension socket to be turned into the master socket? Do I need to run a second cat5e cable up, alongside the existing extension cable? This would be rather annoying as my extension cable goes neatly through a hole drilled in the ceiling.

Edited by jez9999 (Mon 30-Sep-13 14:39:11)

If you ask the ISP to order the free of charge "Home Wiring Solution" along with your FTTC install, the engineer will provide an extension of up to 30m from the master socket, to which the BT Openreach modem is connected.

A better option is to have the master socket moved (which is another "Home Wiring Solution" option) which might be possible by reusing the existing wiring if it is of good enough quality. If this wiring is already Category 5e, that will do. The problem with this is that you have a longer line that you cannot subsequently shorten to try for better performance, as the former extension is now pre-NTE5 wiring that you cannot legally touch.

The FTTC signal can degrade quickly with distance. As such, the best option if there is power sufficiently near the master socket is to leave the master socket where it is, mount the modem by it, and use Ethernet between modem and router. This means a second cable, but will provide the best results. If possible, I'd run two cables, so you have a spare in case you need it later, but this might be inappropriate for decorating reasons.


It's well worth getting the ISP to order the "Home Wiring Solution" no matter what, as it costs them nothing and the BT Openreach engineer's options are constrained if it is not ordered.

As always, tea and biscuits may help get what you want from the engineer.

Sounds like the second cable might be the best solution, then, but ideally I'd like it running alongside the other cable. Hmmmmmm. That would mean sticking it through the hole in the ceiling. What do you think the chances are that the engineer would do that?

If you want cable running for Ethernet, that's really your responsibility. You might get lucky if you present the engineer with a length of solid conductor Category 5e cable that you ask him to run instead of the wiring in the Home Wiring Solution kit, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Is DIY not an option?

Connecting the faceplates to the cable is a simple DIY job if you have a Krone tool (ideally not a plastic one). A specialist stripper for the outer jacket helps, too - it's fiddly using a knife and you often nick the insulation of the inner conductors.


The cable in the HWS kit is 2 pair cable that could be used for Fast Ethernet (use the pairs for 1/2 and 3/6), the maximum the FTTC modems support. However, it's a dead-end solution, as faster Ethernet standards, notably gigabit, require 4 pairs.

" That would mean sticking it through the hole in the ceiling. What do you think the chances are that the engineer would do that? "

He will not drill a hole throught your ceiling but if you already have / drill a hole i can not see why not.

Probably best to be careful and locate any electric cables laid above the ceiling and under the floorboards, if relevant, when drilling holes?

In reply to a post by David_W:

If you want cable running for Ethernet, that's really your responsibility. You might get lucky if you present the engineer with a length of solid conductor Category 5e cable that you ask him to run instead of the wiring in the Home Wiring Solution kit, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Is DIY not an option?

Connecting the faceplates to the cable is a simple DIY job if you have a Krone tool (ideally not a plastic one). A specialist stripper for the outer jacket helps, too - it's fiddly using a knife and you often nick the insulation of the inner conductors.


The cable in the HWS kit is 2 pair cable that could be used for Fast Ethernet (use the pairs for 1/2 and 3/6), the maximum the FTTC modems support. However, it's a dead-end solution, as faster Ethernet standards, notably gigabit, require 4 pairs.

I'm confused - what do you mean "cable running for Ethernet"? What I want is to be able to plug the VDSL modem in upstairs, ideally. Failing that, the modem downstairs and an extension cable running from the modem to my study upstairs.

What exactly is the Home Wiring Solution kit meant to do? Plug a cable into the VDSL modem installed downstairs, or have an extension socket upstairs into which you plug the VDSL modem?

Home Wiring solution, filters the existing phone wiring at the master socket, and then runs a 30m cable that is dedicated for use by the VDSL modem to a location elsewhere in the property.

Home Wiring Solution is intended to go between the faceplate filter and the FTTC modem.

I'm suggesting that it's better to mount the FTTC modem at the master socket, keeping the phone line as short as possible. The Category 5e Ethernet cable is to connect the modem to your router.

This post describes the "Home Wiring Solution" very well.

However!!!

From your description and the ensuing conversation, it looks possible that the cable you already have in place is Cat5?

In which case, as has been suggested, the engineer should happily use that to move the master, and could, (not approved but works), backwire to the existing master if you need a phone there.

A better solution, hinted at but not suggested, if that cable is Cat5, is to have the Openreach modem installed at the current master, then use a second pair in the cable to connect it to a router upstairs. Not being near the modem doesn't matter.

So no need for a second cable.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 30-Sep-13 15:48:47)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A better solution, hinted at but not suggested, if that cable is Cat5, is to have the Openreach modem installed at the current master, then use a second pair in the cable to connect it to a router upstairs. Not being near the modem doesn't matter.

This would involve running Fast Ethernet (which needs two pairs) and phone in the same cable, assuming that the cable remains in use for phone extensions. This would work, but it's not really good practice to run two different services in the same cable.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

This post describes the "Home Wiring Solution" very well.

However!!!

From your description and the ensuing conversation, it looks possible that the cable you already have in place is Cat5?

In which case, as has been suggested, the engineer should happily use that to move the master, and could, (not approved but works), backwire to the existing master if you need a phone there.

A better solution, hinted at but not suggested, if that cable is Cat5, is to have the Openreach modem installed at the current master, then use a second pair in the cable to connect it to a router upstairs. Not being near the modem doesn't matter.

So no need for a second cable.

Well I installed that extension when I moved into the house, but *ahem* I don't know whether it's a Cat5. How can I find out?

If you installed phone wiring then it will not be CAT5 if you installed an Ethernet cable then very likely it will be cat5

It's usually written on the outer insulation

e.g. "CAT5E LAN CABLE UTP SOLID 4 PAIRS"

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 30-Sep-13 16:24:59)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If you installed phone wiring then it will not be CAT5 if you installed an Ethernet cable then very likely it will be cat5

Yeah, it's phone wiring, I didn't think it was CAT5. I have an ADSL filter, phone, and ADSL modem connected to it. Might it be possible/advisable to turn it into my master socket?

If you mean get the master socket relocated, then that might be possible, depends on what the engineer says on the day

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If you mean get the master socket relocated, then that might be possible, depends on what the engineer says on the day

So just to get this straight, it appears there are 2 options:
- Install the faceplate and VDSL modem on the master socket downstairs, and run an ethernet cable upstairs to the study alongside the existing phone cable
- Move the master socket to be the extension one in the study upstairs, and use that cable to turn the former master socket into an extension somehow

Is this right? If I go for moving the master socket, are my speeds likely to drop much? I'd say the extension involves about 6 metres of cable. Also, will the engineer bring along an appropriate master socket faceplate? I'm guessing the cheapo one I'm using right now for my extension socket won't be good enough...

Edited by jez9999 (Mon 30-Sep-13 17:00:08)

It is possible to use a long ethernet patch cable for LAN purposes although a properly installed LAN with CAT5E, short ethernet leads and rj45 wall sockets is a more "professional" job.

The later would give you the opportunity of having a gigabit LAN in the future if required...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

It is possible to use a long ethernet patch cable for LAN purposes although a properly installed LAN with CAT5E, short ethernet leads and rj45 wall sockets is a more "professional" job.

The later would give you the opportunity of having a gigabit LAN in the future if required...

So in other words, the more "professional" job is moving the master socket upstairs, you mean?

Wouldn't that reduce the broadband speed because of the longer phone line (it would be going through my extension)?

Edited by jez9999 (Mon 30-Sep-13 17:21:05)

The effect of 6m of good quality cable should be negligible.


Many years ago, back in the Home Highway days, the NTE5 of what is now our FTTC line was moved upstairs to a room with network connections and uninterruptible power, in order to place the Highway box was near the ISDN equipment. The engineer achieved this by tying three pair phone cable to the two pair cable previously used to run to the upstairs extensions, before using the two pair cable to pull in the three pair cable. The incoming line was wired using one pair of this three pair cable, and the downstairs extensions were 'back wired' using the other two pairs (including the ring wire).

When it came to switching from Highway to ADSL, we needed to retain both analogue numbers from the Highway installation, which meant two incoming pairs were needed and there were insufficient pairs left to 'back wire' the extensions including the ring wire (not necessarily a good idea to include the ring wire, but as a faceplate filter was installed, it didn't affect the ADSL performance). To resolve the situation, I installed two runs of Category 5e solid core cable - one to transfer the extensions on to (the engineer did that for me, though it would only have been a couple of minutes' work to DIY and one to give me a wired Ethernet cable.

The wiring remains the same today: both lines come in underground and run from the crimps over that three pair cable to the NTE5s. The interstitial filter is fitted to the FTTC NTE5, with the modem wall mounted next to it. There is an Ethernet connection between the modem and router.


I wouldn't worry excessively about 6m of additional cable before the master socket or as a data extension from the VDSL filter, so long as good quality cable is used. If the phone cable you currently have is of unknown provenance with no specification marked on it, it may be best to let the engineer replace it with the cable from the Home Wiring Solution kit, or run in your own Category 5e cable.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

So in other words, the more "professional" job is moving the master socket upstairs, you mean?

Wouldn't that reduce the broadband speed because of the longer phone line (it would be going through my extension)?

Personally I would go for keeping the existing NTE5 where it is, locating the modem there and running CAT5 up to the router in the computer room. If in the future you get an all-in-one modem/router, rather than a separate modem and router, then the CAT5 installation will allow you to connect the modem/router to the computer directly.

Also keep the voice extension up to the computer room and this will be connected to the new filtered faceplate fitted to the existing NTE5 and will feed filtered voice to a phone socket in the computer room.

However if the installation engineer can re-locate the NTE5 to the computer room, preferably without using the existing extension wiring, that would certainly be another option.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I wouldn't worry excessively about 6m of additional cable before the master socket or as a data extension from the VDSL filter, so long as good quality cable is used. If the phone cable you currently have is of unknown provenance with no specification marked on it, it may be best to let the engineer replace it with the cable from the Home Wiring Solution kit, or run in your own Category 5e cable.

The cable probably came from a DIY extension kit I bought about 5 years ago from Maplin or somewhere. It's unmarked, but has worked quite well for ADSL2+.

I just realized that there are actually 2 extensions in a row; one downstairs (the master socket is located in an unhelpful position) and the one upstairs. I'm thinking that relocating the master socket upstairs would be my best bet, so go from this:

(1)Master --> (2)Extension --> (3)Extension

To this:

-------------------------------------> (3)Master --> (2)Extension --> (1)Extension

That means that if a phone were connected to what is now the master, it's going allll the way upstairs and round again back to the first downstairs socket. Not sure how hard it would be to "backwire" the two downstairs sockets as extensions, and I'm not sure whether the Openreach engineer will bring a new NTE5 with them (presumably that will be needed to install upstairs if the master socket is moved upstairs).

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

So in other words, the more "professional" job is moving the master socket upstairs, you mean?

Wouldn't that reduce the broadband speed because of the longer phone line (it would be going through my extension)?

Personally I would go for keeping the existing NTE5 where it is, locating the modem there and running CAT5 up to the router in the computer room. If in the future you get an all-in-one modem/router, rather than a separate modem and router, then the CAT5 installation will allow you to connect the modem/router to the computer directly.

Also keep the voice extension up to the computer room and this will be connected to the new filtered faceplate fitted to the existing NTE5 and will feed filtered voice to a phone socket in the computer room.

The trouble is, running a new cable would be a total PITA. The route the existing extension takes is a little laboured (including going through a hole in the ceiling), and running a second cable alongside would not be fun.

However if the installation engineer can re-locate the NTE5 to the computer room, preferably without using the existing extension wiring, that would certainly be another option.

What would be the alternative? Rip out the existing wiring and just replace it? It's all hammered in to the wall; what an annoyance.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What would be the alternative? Rip out the existing wiring and just replace it? It's all hammered in to the wall; what an annoyance.

No you could keep your existing extension for filtered voice from the NTE5 filtered faceplate to a phone socket in the computer room.

Or:

Use that existing extension for filtered voice if the NTE5 is re-located in the computer room feeding down to an extension socket which was previously the master NTE5. The NTE5 in the computer room would be re-wired from the incoming raw feed and only an OR authorised engineer could do that.

There are lots of options in the thread so far.

My preference is to put the modem as close to the point of entry as you can which will mean at the master. Then run a Cat5e lead from the modem to the upstairs location. Taking the raw VDSL signal through te ceiling may work, but how many lighting and power cables will you be near? Every meter in the house is the opportunity for further noise to be injected with a potential lowering of sync.

In reply to a post by MHC:

There are lots of options in the thread so far.

My preference is to put the modem as close to the point of entry as you can which will mean at the master. Then run a Cat5e lead from the modem to the upstairs location. Taking the raw VDSL signal through te ceiling may work, but how many lighting and power cables will you be near? Every meter in the house is the opportunity for further noise to be injected with a potential lowering of sync.

I'll take the loss of a megabit or two for removing the hassle of running a second wire all the way upstairs and through the ceiling.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What would be the alternative? Rip out the existing wiring and just replace it? It's all hammered in to the wall; what an annoyance.

No you could keep your existing extension for filtered voice from the NTE5 filtered faceplate to a phone socket in the computer room.

Or:

Use that existing extension for filtered voice if the NTE5 is re-located in the computer room feeding down to an extension socket which was previously the master NTE5. The NTE5 in the computer room would be re-wired from the incoming raw feed and only an OR authorised engineer could do that.

Isn't that what I suggested as an option in another post? You mean turn the upstairs extension into the master socket, and the downstairs sockets into extensions off it, right?

Have recently seen a similar situation where moving the master downstairs resulted in an increase of around 10Mbps on downstream and 3Mbps on Upstream

Can you use the existng wire to pull an alternate through? If so, pull Cat5e through then wiring appropriately you use 2 pairs for teh Ethernet from Modem to Router which only needs 100Mb and another pair for the voice circuit.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Have recently seen a similar situation where moving the master downstairs resulted in an increase of around 10Mbps on downstream and 3Mbps on Upstream

Can you use the existng wire to pull an alternate through? If so, pull Cat5e through then wiring appropriately you use 2 pairs for teh Ethernet from Modem to Router which only needs 100Mb and another pair for the voice circuit.

What do you mean use the existing wiring to pull an alternate through?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Isn't that what I suggested as an option in another post? You mean turn the upstairs extension into the master socket, and the downstairs sockets into extensions off it, right?

Yes, but it may not be a viable/practical solution - check with the installing engineer and see what he says.

Probably best at the moment to request a "data extension kit" as part of the installation - that can be up to 30 metres in length and may not have to be threaded through holes in the ceiling etc. Routing through holes in the ceiling etc. may degrade the vdsl signal and this is also a job you seem unwilling to do even with CAT5 ethernet between the modem downstairs and the router upstairs.

Tape the end of your existing wire to a new length of Cat5e and then pull from above so that it replaces the existing and you do not have to fiddle about poking through holes or under the floor.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Tape the end of your existing wire to a new length of Cat5e and then pull from above so that it replaces the existing and you do not have to fiddle about poking through holes or under the floor.

I don't get it. How does the new cat5e connect to my upstairs phone?

Edited by jez9999 (Mon 30-Sep-13 20:19:04)

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Isn't that what I suggested as an option in another post? You mean turn the upstairs extension into the master socket, and the downstairs sockets into extensions off it, right?

Yes, but it may not be a viable/practical solution - check with the installing engineer and see what he says.

Probably best at the moment to request a "data extension kit" as part of the installation - that can be up to 30 metres in length and may not have to be threaded through holes in the ceiling etc. Routing through holes in the ceiling etc. may degrade the vdsl signal and this is also a job you seem unwilling to do even with CAT5 ethernet between the modem downstairs and the router upstairs.

I already have requested that as part of the installation, but it seems to me that that would just be re-installing what I have now - a phone cable going to an extension upstairs. Unless I'm missing something about what the data extension kit does?

CAT5e carries 4 pairs, two are needed to support 100 Mbps ethernet if wired to Base 100TX spec, and then one of the other pairs can be used for the telephone.

If that means nothing to you, then opting for a possible lose in speed which should be minimal with a 6metre run, so long as modem is not sat very near plasma tv, noisy power supply etc

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by MHC:

Tape the end of your existing wire to a new length of Cat5e and then pull from above so that it replaces the existing and you do not have to fiddle about poking through holes or under the floor.

I don't get it. How does the new cat5e connect to my upstairs phone?

Use two pairs of the Cat5e Green and Orange to provide te Ethernet connection. 1 & 2 >>>> Wh/Gn & Gn and 3 & 6 >>>> Wh/Or & Or.

Then use Blue pair to connect 2 & 5 of the phone with one of the Brown pair to provide ringing on 3 if required.

I had my master socket moved, and have regretted it since.

I only have about 3 to 4 meters of CAT5 from the original master to the new location, but I was estimated as 57/20, but only get low 40's. As my master socket has been moved I can't rule the additional bit of cable being the cause of my much lower than estimated speeds - I'm a good 20Mbps slower than a lot of people around 450 meters from the cab.

Keep the master where it is, and either use a data extension, so the modem is upstairs, or better still as others are saying put the modem next to the master socket.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

I already have requested that as part of the installation, but it seems to me that that would just be re-installing what I have now - a phone cable going to an extension upstairs. Unless I'm missing something about what the data extension kit does?

A "data extension kit" would include a filtered faceplate for the master NTE5, probably 2 pair CAT5 cable and a rj11 dsl extension socket. The CAT5 cable can be plugged into the front of the filtered faceplate via the dsl socket or hardwired at the back.

Your current voice extension(s) will be connected to the filtered faceplate via the terminals 2 and 5 on the back of the faceplate or if it's an interstitial filtered plate via the existing bottom unfiltered NTE5A faceplate plate with the extension(s) still attached to it. The filtered voice extension to the computer room would be terminated with a phone socket.

You would have two cables leading to the computer room from the master NTE5, one of high quality CAT5 for the vdsl signal terminating in a rj11 socket and the other pre-existing extension for filtered voice terminating in a phone socket. Neither of the sockets in the computer room would have to be filtered since the rj11 socket is carrying the raw vdsl signal to the modem and the phone socket is carrying filtered voice to a phone from the filtered faceplate on the NTE5 downstairs.

Could you not ask the engineer to try the VDSL modem is both locations to see if you lose an significant speed from the extension?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Probably best at the moment to request a "data extension kit" as part of the installation - that can be up to 30 metres in length and may not have to be threaded through holes in the ceiling etc. Routing through holes in the ceiling etc. may degrade the vdsl signal and this is also a job you seem unwilling to do even with CAT5 ethernet between the modem downstairs and the router upstairs.

I already have requested that as part of the installation, but it seems to me that that would just be re-installing what I have now - a phone cable going to an extension upstairs. Unless I'm missing something about what the data extension kit does?

There is another solution, depending on the geography.

Modem at the current master, and run the Data Extension Cable (HWS) externally. The engineer can do that.

Makes sense, but it still involves running a whole new cable up to the study next to the existing phone line cable, which is going to be really difficult (the hole through the ceiling is only about big enough for one cable, I'd have to widen it with a long drillbit...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There is another solution, depending on the geography.

Modem at the current master, and run the Data Extension Cable (HWS) externally. The engineer can do that.

If they do that then they might as well re-locate the NTE5 to the computer room if using external quality cable and then feed the internal extensions using the existing house wiring from the filtered faceplate?

That would work but does give you even more extra VDSL2 distance, so speed degradation. My way you get full speed, and internal phone wiring is unaffected.

A thought!
If you have the modem at the existing master, is there a power socket for it?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A thought!
If you have the modem at the existing master, is there a power socket for it?

Yes...?

In reply to a post by PiKe:

Could you not ask the engineer to try the VDSL modem is both locations to see if you lose an significant speed from the extension?

Wouldn't that mean he'd have to set up the study extension socket as a master socket just to test the VDSL? A bit time consuming...

What about, VDSL modem into a powerline adapter?

Well, last time I bought "white" CAT5e 4 pairs solid core it was £6.50 for 20 metres from Amazon and I just followed the route of an existing phone extension. I linked the router, which was adjacent to the NTE5, to a computer in another room via CAT5e, rj45 sockets and short ethernet leads, in other words also usable as a gigabit LAN. I kept the phone extension in place, leading to the same room, since it was filtered from the NTE5 filtered faceplate.

A similar setup would certainly be possible for the OP if he routed the CAT5 externally, not following the existing internal extension, and he was simply linking the modem to the router

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Well, last time I bought "white" CAT5e 4 pairs solid core it was £6.50 for 20 metres from Amazon and I just followed the route of an existing phone extension. I linked the router, which was adjacent to the NTE5, to a computer in another room via CAT5e, rj45 sockets and short ethernet leads, in other words also usable as a gigabit LAN. I kept the phone extension in place, leading to the same room, since it was filtered from the NTE5 filtered faceplate.

A similar setup would certainly be possible for the OP if he routed the CAT5 externally, not following the existing internal extension, and he was simply linking the modem to the router

By the way, this is my current study extension panel:
http://game-point.net/misc/phonePanel1.png

I'm guessing 2 and 5 are being used for the phone line right now. Sorry to be simple, but why can't the 2 orange ones in the middle be used for VDSL?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

By the way, this is my current study extension panel:
http://game-point.net/misc/phonePanel1.png

I'm guessing 2 and 5 are being used for the phone line right now. Sorry to be simple, but why can't the 2 orange ones in the middle be used for VDSL?

Yes you could utilize the orange/white and white/orange pair for vsdl from the filtered faceplate on the master NTE5 downstairs to a dedicated rj11 dsl socket in the computer room but you may get a considerable drop in speed relative to the speeds attainable with a CAT5 "data extension kit" where the vdsl signal would be carried on the CAT5 and the filtered voice on a separate extension...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

By the way, this is my current study extension panel:
http://game-point.net/misc/phonePanel1.png

I'm guessing 2 and 5 are being used for the phone line right now. Sorry to be simple, but why can't the 2 orange ones in the middle be used for VDSL?

Yes you could utilize the orange/white and white/orange pair for vsdl from the filtered faceplate on the master NTE5 downstairs to a dedicated rj11 dsl socket in the computer room but you may get a considerable drop in speed relative to the speeds attainable with a CAT5 "data extension kit" where the vdsl signal would be carried on the CAT5 and the filtered voice on a separate extension...

What about totally replacing this cable with the cat5e one and using two of the twisted pairs in the cat5e cable? What I really just want to avoid is having 2 cables side-by-side, it seems redundant.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What about totally replacing this cable with the cat5e one and using two of the twisted pairs in the cat5e cable? What I really just want to avoid is having 2 cables side-by-side, it seems redundant.

That's this suggestion earlier.

Be aware that the extension may be tacked to a beam or something similar so pulling through doesn't work.

(as I've discovered annoyingly!)

The OP fitted the existing cable, and referred to its fixing at the end of this post.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What about totally replacing this cable with the cat5e one and using two of the twisted pairs in the cat5e cable? What I really just want to avoid is having 2 cables side-by-side, it seems redundant.

That's this suggestion earlier.

I didn't understand that suggestion as it seemed to suggest using 3 pairs instead of 2; was it just broken English?

Also, what would be the advantage of using 2 pairs in a cat5e rather than the 2 pairs in that existing phone cable? Is it just that the design of the cat5e reduces the signal attenuation?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What about totally replacing this cable with the cat5e one and using two of the twisted pairs in the cat5e cable? What I really just want to avoid is having 2 cables side-by-side, it seems redundant.

That's this suggestion earlier.

I didn't understand that suggestion as it seemed to suggest using 3 pairs instead of 2; was it just broken English?

The assumption was being made that the existing cable was 4 pair Category 5e.

100Base-TX Ethernet (Fast Ethernet) needs two pairs. This is fast enough for an FTTC modem (the BT Openworld modems only have Fast Ethernet ports), but will not be fast enough for future faster connections, as Gigabit Ethernet needs four pairs.

Phone needs one pair - whilst you arguably still should wire up the ring wire (3), all modern phones are perfectly happy with just the main pair (2/5).


Unfortunately, looking at the picture you posted, it looks like the cable we're talking about is two pair oval cross-section stuff, which may not have the pairs twisted together. Not only do we not have enough pairs for phone and Fast Ethernet in one cable, a lack of twists would make the cable unsuitable for Fast Ethernet or the FTTC signal.

Cable with twisted pairs is almost always round in cross section, not oval and definitely not flat.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Also, what would be the advantage of using 2 pairs in a cat5e rather than the 2 pairs in that existing phone cable? Is it just that the design of the cat5e reduces the signal attenuation?

It's the pitch of the twisting of the pairs that is crucial. Each pair has a different twist pitch.

Phone cable is to a lower specification than Category 5e.


If you are going to run new cable, I strongly suggest using solid conductor Category 5e (there's no point using Category 6a for this application - it would just be a nuisance) and wiring any cable used for Ethernet as four pair, so that you can later upgrade the link to Gigabit without rewiring.

You can always use some plastic trunking to keep things neat and tidy.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Tape the end of your existing wire to a new length of Cat5e and then pull from above so that it replaces the existing and you do not have to fiddle about poking through holes or under the floor.

To stop the taped connection coming apart, it's best to wind the wires in the new cable tightly and individually round the wires in the old, then protect and reinforce the joint with electrical tape. There's nothing more frustrating than the taped joint coming apart somewhere inaccessible.

Once you've pulled the new cable gently through, cut off and discard the end 200mm or so. Bulk Category 5e cable is cheap enough that it costs very little to throw away the end portion in case it's been damaged whilst being pulled.

As a matter of good practice, you should leave enough spare cable tucked away in a void to cut off and remake the ends a couple of times.


Mentioning how cheap bulk cable is, if anyone in Central Bedfordshire is desperate for some grey Category 5 cable, I've got something like 100m remaining in a 305m quick draw box in my loft from wiring up the house years ago. As Category 5 rather than the later Category 5e it's technically out of spec for Gigabit Ethernet, though, in practice, Gigabit works fine on short runs. The only long runs here are in fibre.


As has been pointed out, the 'old cable as draw cord' trick doesn't always work, especially if the old cable is cable clipped somewhere inaccessible.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by MHC:

Tape the end of your existing wire to a new length of Cat5e and then pull from above so that it replaces the existing and you do not have to fiddle about poking through holes or under the floor.

To stop the taped connection coming apart, it's best to wind the wires in the new cable tightly and individually round the wires in the old, then protect and reinforce the joint with electrical tape. There's nothing more frustrating than the taped joint coming apart somewhere inaccessible.

Once you've pulled the new cable gently through, cut off and discard the end 200mm or so. Bulk Category 5e cable is cheap enough that it costs very little to throw away the end portion in case it's been damaged whilst being pulled.

As a matter of good practice, you should leave enough spare cable tucked away in a void to cut off and remake the ends a couple of times.


Mentioning how cheap bulk cable is, if anyone in Central Bedfordshire is desperate for some grey Category 5 cable, I've got something like 100m remaining in a 305m quick draw box in my loft from wiring up the house years ago. As Category 5 rather than the later Category 5e it's technically out of spec for Gigabit Ethernet, though, in practice, Gigabit works fine on short runs. The only long runs here are in fibre.


As has been pointed out, the 'old cable as draw cord' trick doesn't always work, especially if the old cable is cable clipped somewhere inaccessible.

This is a vertical hole through the ceiling, about 40cm long. I rather doubt I'll need to use a cable to drag the other one up; I can just push the new one through from the top.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Also, what would be the advantage of using 2 pairs in a cat5e rather than the 2 pairs in that existing phone cable? Is it just that the design of the cat5e reduces the signal attenuation?

It's the pitch of the twisting of the pairs that is crucial. Each pair has a different twist pitch.

Phone cable is to a lower specification than Category 5e.


If you are going to run new cable, I strongly suggest using solid conductor Category 5e (there's no point using Category 6a for this application - it would just be a nuisance) and wiring any cable used for Ethernet as four pair, so that you can later upgrade the link to Gigabit without rewiring.

You can always use some plastic trunking to keep things neat and tidy.

Right I see. I shouldn't really need to use trunking if the cable is white, I can just tack it to the wall and it should look OK. Let's say I replace the existing cable with 4 pair cat5e; how do you think I should do this - before or after the engineer's visit? I'm guessing his data extension kit cable won't be 4 pair cat5e (actually looking at this image, maybe it will??? http://community.bt.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id... ) so would it be best for me to replace my existing cable with 4 pair cat5e before he comes?

There's also the issue of the 'intermediate' extension socket to consider. My setup is:

Master --> Downstairs extension socket --> Upstairs extension socket

Obviously I can run the voice wiring through the downstairs extension socket, but will that socket have the ability to "forward through" some other pairs too, for the data? Or, maybe the engineer could replace that socket with the NTE5 he will presumably bring with him as part of the data extension kit (I'm guessing an NTE5 can forward multiple signals through)? What do you think? I'm not sure how it would be wired up at the master socket, though; I mean the voice pair would need to come from the socket, whereas the data pairs would need to come from the modem, wouldn't they? So how would you connect the cat5e cable up to both?

Edited by jez9999 (Tue 01-Oct-13 09:20:26)

A you certain that you don't want two cables, i.e. phone and CAT5, running together up to the computer room?

Is a few more feet of cable really going to make that much difference if the OP is within 200 metres of his cab?

The "data extension kit" would certainly be the easiest solution and as you say it would only add a few more feet of cable, but those few more feet could be susceptible to noise generated by other electrical/electronic devices and perhaps adjacent electric cables in the house...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

A you certain that you don't want two cables, i.e. phone and CAT5, running together up to the computer room?

Yes, I'd certainly like to avoid it. The current phone cable runs through some very narrow areas and through a hole in the ceiling; it could be replaced but there isn't really room for 2 cables without some drilling. A one-cable solution would be much better. However, what I'm saying is, can't that one (cat5e) cable carry everything I need? Both the phone and the data?

Edited by jez9999 (Tue 01-Oct-13 10:36:21)

In reply to a post by PiKe:

Is a few more feet of cable really going to make that much difference if the OP is within 200 metres of his cab?

Hang on I don't quite understand; aren't you talking about moving the master socket upstairs here? I'm talking about leaving it (and the VDSL modem) downstairs and extending both a phone line and a data line to the upstairs.

Yeah I'm talking about extending the master.

In reply to a post by PiKe:

Yeah I'm talking about extending the master.

Why did we move back on to that solution?

It's the laziest, I mean, simplest

In reply to a post by MHC:

Have recently seen a similar situation where moving the master downstairs resulted in an increase of around 10Mbps on downstream and 3Mbps on Upstream

If the cabling leading upstairs would cause that kind of a speed drop, why wouldn't it cause the same kind of speed drop from the VDSL modem to the router over a data line? Does the VDSL modem act as a kind of repeater?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

A you certain that you don't want two cables, i.e. phone and CAT5, running together up to the computer room?

Yes, I'd certainly like to avoid it. The current phone cable runs through some very narrow areas and through a hole in the ceiling; it could be replaced but there isn't really room for 2 cables without some drilling. A one-cable solution would be much better. However, what I'm saying is, can't that one (cat5e) cable carry everything I need? Both the phone and the data?

OK loosen off the phone cable and use it later to pull the CAT5 through the hole. The "data extension kit" will include CAT5 so you should be able to use that for both filtered voice to the computer room and the ethernet connection between the modem connected to the NTE5 downstairs and the router upstairs in the computer room.

Or:

You could buy some 4 pair solid core CAT5e now and use that to replace the phone cable. That would require you to connect one twisted pair to the NTE5 and the other end to the socket in the computer room. This would allow you to continue using the phone and current ADSL router in the computer room. The CAT5e would then be in a suitable position ready for the more complex connections that you will need to do once the FTTC modem is installed via a filtered faceplate on the NTE5 downstairs.

Edit: I still prefer the two cable solution but if you only want one CAT5 cable then that's your choice

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 01-Oct-13 11:17:13)

No and no.

VDSL signals are at a very low level and susceptible to noise. The modem converts the data carried in the VDSL signal to Ethernet. Ethernet operates at much higher levels and is not susceptible to noise to the same degree.

I know phone cable isn't Cat5, but couldn't you use that existing cable for ethernet, if you're not bothered about having a voice line upstairs?

No,

It will/might "work" but there will be impedance mismatches and cross-talk and probably only give 10Mbps capability with a lot of errors.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

A you certain that you don't want two cables, i.e. phone and CAT5, running together up to the computer room?

Yes, I'd certainly like to avoid it. The current phone cable runs through some very narrow areas and through a hole in the ceiling; it could be replaced but there isn't really room for 2 cables without some drilling. A one-cable solution would be much better. However, what I'm saying is, can't that one (cat5e) cable carry everything I need? Both the phone and the data?

OK loosen off the phone cable and use it later to pull the CAT5 through the hole. The "data extension kit" will include CAT5 so you should be able to use that for both filtered voice to the computer room and the ethernet connection between the modem connected to the NTE5 downstairs and the router upstairs in the computer room.

That's what I was thinking. Would the Openreach engineer be willing to take the time to replace that cabling, though? Also, I'm not quite sure how the twisted pairs would be connected up in the computer room. Two pairs would have to go into the data faceplate, and one would have to go into the phone faceplate; but how would that work with only one cable leading into the room?

You could buy some 4 pair solid core CAT5e now and use that to replace the phone cable. That would require you to connect one twisted pair to the NTE5 and the other end to the socket in the computer room. This would allow you to continue using the phone and current ADSL router in the computer room. The CAT5e would then be in a suitable position ready for the more complex connections that you will need to do once the FTTC modem is installed via a filtered faceplate on the NTE5 downstairs.

Yep but buying that cat5e seems like a bit of a waste of money if the data extension kit is going to come with some free of charge.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Yep but buying that cat5e seems like a bit of a waste of money if the data extension kit is going to come with some free of charge.

Absolutely But then you will have the job of installing the cable and all the bits and pieces before you can use the router and phone via the same CAT5 cable upstairs. The installer will probably only be prepared to do a simple "data extension" from the NTE5 interstitial faceplate to the modem located upstairs in the computer room.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Yep but buying that cat5e seems like a bit of a waste of money if the data extension kit is going to come with some free of charge.

Absolutely But then you will have the job of installing the cable and all the bits and pieces before you can use the router and phone via the same CAT5 cable upstairs. The installer will probably only be prepared to do a simple "data extension" from the NTE5 interstitial faceplate to the modem located upstairs in the computer room.

Sigh, that really sucks. Would it be that much more difficult for him to replace the existing wiring? In any case he's going to have to run the new cable upstairs.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Sigh, that really sucks. Would it be that much more difficult for him to replace the existing wiring? In any case he's going to have to run the new cable upstairs.

But you want to just use the CAT5 for both filtered voice and ethernet and he may not be able to do that for you. He may however be able to pull the CAT5 through the hole in the ceiling using the existing phone cable and then you will have the "data extension" installed with the modem in the computer room, although if the phone cable is removed you will not have a working phone socket in that room. Then later you can sort out the connections and have the modem downstairs etc. etc.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Would the Openreach engineer be willing to take the time to replace that cabling, though? Also, I'm not quite sure how the twisted pairs would be connected up in the computer room. Two pairs would have to go into the data faceplate, and one would have to go into the phone faceplate; but how would that work with only one cable leading into the room?

It's really your job to do this work, as it's customer side cabling.

You can see the typical colour codes on this page. Most work today is done to EIA-568B codes. As you can see from the table under the picture with the colour codes, Fast Ethernet uses only two pairs: 1/2 and 3/6.

If you're going to use one cable, I'd wire as follows:

RJ45 faceplate (following EIA-568B colour codes)

1 Orange/White
2 Orange
3 Green/White
4 n/c
5 n/c
6 Green
7 n/c
8 n/c


Phone (following BT colour codes, other than the ring wire which would normally be Orange/White)

1 n/c
2 Blue/White
3 n/c (or Brown/White if you want a ring wire on the extension)
4 n/c
5 Blue
6 n/c


Tuck the unused Brown (and Brown/White if you don't connect the ring wire to the phone extension) neatly out of the way rather than cutting them off. You can get some nice modular faceplates that will give you an RJ45 socket and a secondary phone socket in one single-gang unit.


It's well worth getting hold of a knock-off of the proper Krone punch-down tool, which will cost you about £8. The plastic disposable tools are rubbish and if you aren't careful can damage the IDC punch-down blocks.

When you lay out the wires before punching them down, you should untwist the minimum length you can get away with. If you use a proper Krone tool rather than a plastic one, the tool will cut off the excess length of any wire - make sure you gather up any bits rather than leaving them amongst the wiring.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Yep but buying that cat5e seems like a bit of a waste of money if the data extension kit is going to come with some free of charge.

If you ask around, someone local to you may give you some cable and maybe lend you the punch-down and outer jacket stripping tools for a couple of beers. Category 5e cable in bulk is not expensive and I can't be the only one that has the remains of a 305m (1000ft) box sitting around as it was cheaper to buy the whole box than the ~150m I needed as a measured length.

It might be worth asking on Freecycle or similar if someone has some cable you can have - but only use new cable. Attempting to recycle cable can be disastrous, as the wires inside might be damaged.


If you have to buy the bits and pieces, Comms Express want £23.99 for 100m of cable. They want £8.34 for a knock-off of the Krone tool and £10.20 for an outer jacket stripping tool (you can get away without one and use a craft knife if careful) - or, as an alternative, offer a useful installation tool kit with alternatives to both these tools and a useful tester for £41.99.

For faceplates, they sell an RJ45 module for £1.44, a secondary voice module for £2.04, and the faceplate to install them in for 55p. If you only want to put one module in a faceplate you need to put a quarter blank at each side of the module (11p per quarter blank) or one half blank at 19p. A single gang back box is 72p - or you can use other styles (such as dry lining boxes that you can let into plasterboard) from your local DIY store.


If you can find someone to give you a few metres of cable and lend you the tools, you can see that this is an inexpensive project. Even if you have to buy the tools (which I'd keep afterwards - if you buy the tool kit, the tester is useful for weeding out broken patch cables, and you can do your mates' phone extensions and Ethernet cables), it's not too expensive a project.


The Data Extension Kit (aka Home Wiring Solution if the kit is deployed rather than the master being moved) is free of charge, but the cable is only two pairs, so will not give the flexibility to extend in (relatively noise immune) Ethernet that you get by running your own four pair cable (or, even better, multiple cables so that you can devote four pairs to Ethernet for future-proofing).

Thanks for this, very useful information!

This modular faceplate covers how the cabling will be terminated upstairs, but I have a couple of other things:

What about the intermediate extension? I'm guessing I'll need to use two cuts of cat5e; one from that extension to the upstairs modular faceplate, and one from that extension to the master socket / VDSL modem. But do you think that intermediate extension will be able to carry the signal of all 4 of the twisted pairs across?

Also, what happens at the master socket end? If one twisted pair has to go into the master socket and two of them into the VDSL modem, how does that work? The cat5e cable can't really be split in two.

In reply to a post by David_W:

The Data Extension Kit (aka Home Wiring Solution if the kit is deployed rather than the master being moved) is free of charge, but the cable is only two pairs, so will not give the flexibility to extend in (relatively noise immune) Ethernet that you get by running your own four pair cable (or, even better, multiple cables so that you can devote four pairs to Ethernet for future-proofing).

Yes I agree, it would be much better to use 4 pair CAT5e exclusively for ethernet rather than use one of the pairs for filtered voice

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by David_W:

The Data Extension Kit (aka Home Wiring Solution if the kit is deployed rather than the master being moved) is free of charge, but the cable is only two pairs, so will not give the flexibility to extend in (relatively noise immune) Ethernet that you get by running your own four pair cable (or, even better, multiple cables so that you can devote four pairs to Ethernet for future-proofing).

Yes I agree, it would be much better to use 4 pair CAT5e exclusively for ethernet rather than use one of the pairs for filtered voice

Nah, I can't fit 2 cables through easily!

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What about the intermediate extension? I'm guessing I'll need to use two cuts of cat5e; one from that extension to the upstairs modular faceplate, and one from that extension to the master socket / VDSL modem. But do you think that intermediate extension will be able to carry the signal of all 4 of the twisted pairs across?

Also, what happens at the master socket end? If one twisted pair has to go into the master socket and two of them into the VDSL modem, how does that work? The cat5e cable can't really be split in two.

The ideal is to site the FTTC modem at the master socket and run Ethernet to the router. In the case you don't need a VDSL extension.

Nevertheless, if you want an unfiltered VDSL extension, you pick that up from the two way IDC block on the interstitial filter. You use one twisted pair to wire that to the centre pair on an RJ11 or RJ45 connector.


For filtered voice, you use the IDC block on the faceplate of the NTE5 - the connections are numbered on the PCB. Use the colour code I already posted:

2 - Blue/White
3 - Orange/White (if you want a ring wire)
5 - Blue

I can't remember if there's a terminal for 4, but it doesn't matter in any case (it would be earth on a PABX system using earth recall).



If you have an intermediate phone socket, there's two ways to wire it.

One is to put two cables in the IDC blocks - punch the first one down, then punch the second one down over the top. The IDC connectors are designed for this.

The other is to strip a section of insulation from the middle of the cable run, and punch the wires down without cutting them (there's a plastic collar you push round the neck of the official Krone tool which inhibits the cutter - the knock-off tools typically lack this and the collar is often lost anyway unless it's tied to the handle). This is likely to be almost impossible to achieve using a modular faceplate. If you can manage it, leave any uninvolved pairs twisted at their usual pitch and keep them out of the way.


I'm quite used to 'mid cable' IDC connections from my days supporting Acorn's Econet system at a large school where I was a pupil in the 1980s and early 1990s. Econet used braid and foil screened two pair cable with a drain (earth) wire - I believe the typical cable was a Brand-Rex product. It was a beggar to strip mid cable, as you had to cut away the outer insulation, trim away all the braid and cut off the foil before you got to the inner wires. There was also a plastic wrap under the foil.

It was quite common to break the drain wire when stripping the cable - if you got the knife in the stripping tool set slightly too deep whilst attempting to bruise the braid for easy stripping, you cut the drain wire. Sometimes you nicked the drain wire rather than cutting it outright, which subsequently snapped as you formed the wires across the IDC connectors before punching them down (as this was a shielded system, earth had to be connected to each station). Less commonly, you damaged one of the inner wires when stripping the cable.

Fortunately the layout of the IDC blocks on the faceplates used allowed you to cut the cable in two and connect up both ends if a 'mid cable' connection attempt went wrong.

It was a relief when, in the dying couple of years of Econet, there was a switch to twisted quad cable with a foil screen and drain wire but no braid. This cable was much easier to work with, especially stripping 'mid cable'. Stripping braid with just a side cutter is no fun (you couldn't use the sort of tool used to strip coaxial cable before installing an F type connector because the drain wire was in the way when stripping mid cable).


Those were the days - you had somewhere between a few tens of kilobits and low hundreds of kilobits shared between every station on the network (bus topology), which contended for the available bandwidth (using the same CSMA/CD approach as is used for non-switched Ethernet). Leased lines were typically BT Kilostream (64 kbit/s) - Megastream (often 2 Mbit/s) was available but fearsomely expensive.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Yes I agree, it would be much better to use 4 pair CAT5e exclusively for ethernet rather than use one of the pairs for filtered voice

Nah, I can't fit 2 cables through easily!

The single CAT5 solution for filtered voice and ethernet requires the fitting of several extra bits and pieces for the installation though A LAN 4 pair CAT5e ethernet connection from the modem downstairs might serve you better in the long term though and that would only require 2 rj45 sockets and a couple of short ethernet patch leads...

If you place a RJ45 socket immediately next to the master socket then the CAT5 cable can be stripped back long enough to reach both.

As for the other telephone socket, simply run a bit on normal cable from the master to the socket, perhaps even your existing one can be utilised.

Telephone extensions can be wired in a star format, think of all extensions coming from the master to the extension socket, but going nowhere else.

Take a look in my signature, there is a guide for a data extension.

I'm sure I also have some CAT5 cable leftover after wiring the house up - I'm in Broadstairs.

Edited by R0NSKI (Tue 01-Oct-13 13:41:06)

In my case, my house had a master socket in the garage, and then goes via internal wiring to the extension in the lounge.

Would the OR engineer simply thread a new cable through? I don't want to start drilling holes everywhere.

If the existing extension wiring is used for vdsl then you may, as described earlier, suffer a considerable reduction in speeds compared to the CAT5 "data extension" solution and even more so compared to a CAT5 ethernet link from the modem located close to the master

In reply to a post by 4M2:

If the existing extension wiring is used for vdsl then you may, as described earlier, suffer a considerable reduction in speeds compared to the CAT5 "data extension" solution and even more so compared to a CAT5 ethernet link from the modem located close to the master

So the engineer is unlikely to pull through a new cat5 (data extension) cable? Argh.

He may be able to install the "data extension" via a convenient route

In reply to a post by David_W:

Nevertheless, if you want an unfiltered VDSL extension, you pick that up from the two way IDC block on the interstitial filter.

So does that mean a cable carries the phone signal out to the VDSL modem, and then the VDSL modem is connected back in to the master socket and ITS signal then goes out on the cat5e cable?

You use one twisted pair to wire that to the centre pair on an RJ11 or RJ45 connector.

Someone elsewhere on this thread said 100Mbit ethernet needed 2 twisted pairs; why is only 1 needed?

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Nevertheless, if you want an unfiltered VDSL extension, you pick that up from the two way IDC block on the interstitial filter.

So does that mean a cable carries the phone signal out to the VDSL modem, and then the VDSL modem is connected back in to the master socket and ITS signal then goes out on the cat5e cable?

You use one twisted pair to wire that to the centre pair on an RJ11 or RJ45 connector.

Someone elsewhere on this thread said 100Mbit ethernet needed 2 twisted pairs; why is only 1 needed?

I can see where the misunderstanding has come from now.


If you're extending over Ethernet you use a short Category 5e patch cable to connect the Ethernet port of the BT Openreach modem to an RJ45 faceplate on the wall at the modem end. This faceplate is connected via fixed Category 5e cabling (at least two pairs, ideally all four) to another RJ45 faceplate by the router, where you use another short Category 5e patch cable to connect to the router's Ethernet WAN port.

If you adopt this solution, there's no need for a (potentially performance sapping) VDSL2 extension - you connect the WAN side of the BT Openreach modem directly to the upper socket on the NTE5 / interstitial faceplate.

In this scenario, you install cabling for one Ethernet link, plus whatever you need for your (filtered, i.e. voice) phone extensions.


You only fit a VDSL2 extension (aka Home Wiring Solution, aka Data Extension Kit) if you're not siting the modem at the existing master socket and the engineer decides not to move the NTE5 master socket.

You are going round and round in cirlces.

Get a Cat5e cable from the upstairs to down stairs. Fit a standard back box at both locations and install two EuroModule connectors - an RJ45 and a BT phone in each.

There are two conventions for wiring Ethernet T568A and T568B - let's work with T568B.

Connect as follows:
RJ45
1 Wh/Or
2 Or
3 Wh/Gn
6 Gn

BT Phone
2 Bl
5 Bl/Wh

3 Bn - for ringing if required.

4 Bn/Wh - does nothing but can be connected for neatness.


The Technician will ensure a filtered faceplate is fitted.

Using a short length of Phone Cable (CW1308) wire from the removable faceplate pins 2 and 5 to 2 and 5 on the local BT module. That will extend your voice circuit to upstairs. You can plug a phone in and use it - if ringing does not work then you might need to connect pins 3 using Bn.

Use the supplied RJ11 cable to connect the Data Socket on the faceplate to the Modem input. The Modem output is connected using a short patch lead to the RJ45 socket that you have installed, That carries an Ethernet signal.

Upstairs, connect another patch lead from the RJ45 socket to the WAN interface on the Router and connect your PC to the router as usual.

That's a really helpful summary of the direction I was going - thanks MHC. My only comment would be that you can use Category 5e or CW1308 to connect to the NTE5 faceplate - whatever is to hand.


If you're going to order from Comms Express and don't have some suitable RJ45 patch cables already, this range would be a good choice. 0.5m is probably a little short - 1m would give you a little more room for manoeuvre. Considering how cheap these cables are, I'd order both lengths and see which fits best when everything is installed. The colour is up to you!

You can test the Ethernet link before your FTTC install by connecting one end to a LAN socket on your existing router and the other to a laptop or similar device.



If you're prepared to run two cables so that the RJ45 fixed wiring could support Gigabit Ethernet in the future (for example, to handle a future FTTP upgrade), I'd dedicate one cable to phone (you can then use the conventional colour code for the ring wire) and use the other to wire between the RJ45 sockets using the full EIA-568B colour code.


If I was doing this project, I'd be strongly tempted to use dual-gang faceplates and fit four cables in trunking. You never know what the rest might be useful for in the future - maybe an wired Ethernet link to a set top box or smart TV.

However, I appreciate you are trying to keep the number of cables, drilling and visual impact to a minimum.

The extension kits might now be 4 pair so it might be worth going for that solution initially and then the OP can change over to ethernet and filtered voice in the single CAT5 (rather than 4 pair gigabit which doesn't seem to be favoured at the moment) at his leisure assuming the installer leaves him plenty of spare length to play around with?

In reply to a post by David_W:

I can see where the misunderstanding has come from now.


If you're extending over Ethernet you use a short Category 5e patch cable to connect the Ethernet port of the BT Openreach modem to an RJ45 faceplate on the wall at the modem end. This faceplate is connected via fixed Category 5e cabling (at least two pairs, ideally all four) to another RJ45 faceplate by the router, where you use another short Category 5e patch cable to connect to the router's Ethernet WAN port.

If you adopt this solution

Let's ignore this solution for the sake of this thread because it means 2 parallel cables, which I don't want.

You only fit a VDSL2 extension (aka Home Wiring Solution, aka Data Extension Kit) if you're not siting the modem at the existing master socket and the engineer decides not to move the NTE5 master socket.

This I don't understand. Under what circumstance would you extend the line up to 30 metres, but not change the master socket to where you're extending it? I'm guessing I won't want to do that.

What I'm wanting to do it site the VDSL modem next to the existing downstairs master socket, then extend its ethernet connection (through the same cat5e cable as the phone line is going) upstairs to a modular faceplate which will have a phone socket and an ethernet socket. Is that possible, and if so, how do you connect the VDSL modem ethernet output to the twisted pairs in the cat5e cable? And does it need 1 pair connected or 2?

Edited by jez9999 (Tue 01-Oct-13 16:14:25)

The solution you want is this:

NTE5 with filter
[data socket on top of filter]
(RJ11 cable supplied by BT Openreach engineer with modem)
[WAN port]
BT Openreach modem
[LAN port]
(RJ45 patch lead)
RJ45 faceplate on wall next to modem
(two pairs of Category 5e)
RJ45 faceplate on wall next to router
(RJ45 patch lead)
[Ethernet WAN port]
Router


() is the connection method
[] is the port


You then use one further pair of the same Category 5e cable for a voice extension (one pair and one further wire if you need the bell wire) if you need that upstairs:

NTE5 with filter
[terminals on back of front plate]
(short piece of twisted pair cable from the NTE5 into your back box alongside)
secondary voice socket in same faceplate as RJ45 next to modem
(one further pair of the Category 5e cable)
secondary voice socket

and, from there, onwards to any further extensions.



MHC summarised my fuller directions on how to connect this up.

Deleted

Edited by ian72 (Tue 01-Oct-13 16:31:41)

I posted a number of queries before I had my fibre installed and I really had no need to bother. For my original ADSL connection I had installed a NTE5 filtered faceplate on the master. I ran a Cat5e cable from the unfiltered terminals on the back of this faceplate through a neat hole into the loft and down to a filtered extension socket by my computer.
The installer took one look at the set up and then connected the modem to the ADSLsocket on the extension, connected up the router and having powered up used the phone socket on the extension to make a call. Then tested the broadband and I got about 37Mbps down and 9+ up. The phones all work and the speeds have not changed since mid May.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Using a short length of Phone Cable (CW1308)

Does this have to be CW1308 or could you just use cat5e for this?

wire from the removable faceplate pins 2 and 5 to 2 and 5 on the local BT module.

Do you mean "master socket" by "local BT module"? Edit: actually I think I know what you're talking about; it's the "customer-side" unit that plugs in to the master socket, right?

That will extend your voice circuit to upstairs.

So just to make sure I have this straight, I'm going to have a BT phone socket module upstairs, wired to a BT phone socket module downstairs, but I'm not actually going to plug anything in to the downstairs one (or at least I don't have to) - the idea is to leave that closed, but extend its wiring to connect to the BT master socket? Therefore it would be a good idea to have this downstairs phone socket module sitting right next to the master socket?

Edited by jez9999 (Tue 01-Oct-13 16:52:58)

OK, I think I have it now (I'm going to try and draw a Visio diagram of this setup ). A couple of things:

You talk about using 2 twisted pairs of the cat5e cable for the modem -> router connection, but in an earlier post you said:

Nevertheless, if you want an unfiltered VDSL extension, you pick that up from the two way IDC block on the interstitial filter. You use one twisted pair to wire that to the centre pair on an RJ11 or RJ45 connector.

What did you mean there? It sounds like you're talking about connecting the master socket straight to an RJ45 connector, but I thought (slower-than-gigabit)ethernet required 2 twisted pairs and not 1?

Also, will running my phone connection along the same cat5e cable as my ethernet connection result in any significant interference with the ethernet signal? Is this something to be concerned about or not?

Yes Cat5e will be fine.

You are connecting the Voice IDC (Insulation displacement connector) on the removable part of the front plate to the IDC on the BT Module fitted to the downstairs backbox. Yes there will be an extra phone socket - but you don't have to use it. Gel Crimps instead of the module would be an alternative.

You can locate the new box and two modules close to the master but does not have to be right next to it.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by MHC:

Using a short length of Phone Cable (CW1308)

Does this have to be CW1308 or could you just use cat5e for this?

Any cable will do, as it's voice and a short run, though it really should be twisted pair. There's no problem using Category 5e.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by MHC:

wire from the removable faceplate pins 2 and 5 to 2 and 5 on the local BT module.

Do you mean "master socket" by "local BT module"? Edit: actually I think I know what you're talking about; it's the "customer-side" unit that plugs in to the master socket, right?

Yes. There's pictures in MrSaffron's pictorial explanation.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by MHC:

That will extend your voice circuit to upstairs.

So just to make sure I have this straight, I'm going to have a BT phone socket module upstairs, wired to a BT phone socket module downstairs, but I'm not actually going to plug anything in to the downstairs one (or at least I don't have to) - the idea is to leave that closed, but extend its wiring to connect to the BT master socket? Therefore it would be a good idea to have this downstairs phone socket module sitting right next to the master socket?

That's precisely it. If you butt the box you're installing up to the BT NTE5, you can put a hole through the side of both back boxes and run the cable through. There may well be a knock-out you can use rather than having to resort to drilling the boxes.

If you installed your box immediately below the BT box, you could use the slot in the bottom of the interstitial filter to run your cable. I'm not sure that's an 'approved' purpose (it's there to allow you to install the filter without disconnecting any extensions from the faceplate), but if it works, that's the main thing.

If you're planning on drilling back boxes, it's worth ordering a spare or two. Even using knock-outs doesn't always work - sometimes you make a right mess.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

You talk about using 2 twisted pairs of the cat5e cable for the modem -> router connection, but in an earlier post you said:

Nevertheless, if you want an unfiltered VDSL extension, you pick that up from the two way IDC block on the interstitial filter. You use one twisted pair to wire that to the centre pair on an RJ11 or RJ45 connector.

What did you mean there? It sounds like you're talking about connecting the master socket straight to an RJ45 connector, but I thought (slower-than-gigabit)ethernet required 2 twisted pairs and not 1?

Forget about that, as that was an alternative option we dismissed: an unfiltered VDSL2 extension before the BT Openreach FTTC modem. We're now talking about the superior option of fixed Ethernet wiring connected after the BT Openreach FTTC modem.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Also, will running my phone connection along the same cat5e cable as my ethernet connection result in any significant interference with the ethernet signal? Is this something to be concerned about or not?

It's highly unlikely to cause any problems. The alternative is the option you've dismissed of running two separate cables.

In reply to a post by MHC:

You are connecting the Voice IDC (Insulation displacement connector) on the removable part of the front plate to the IDC on the BT Module fitted to the downstairs backbox. Yes there will be an extra phone socket - but you don't have to use it. Gel Crimps instead of the module would be an alternative.

A third option is just to install an RJ45 faceplate in the box by the master socket (with the remaining half width blanked off), butt the boxes together, drill a hole/use knock outs so there's a hole for wiring to pass between the boxes, and poke the pair of wires you're going to connect to the NTE5 faceplate into the BT box.

For the minimal extra cost of a second voice module, I'd use a voice module and two separate cables rather than taking an unsheathed pair from the new back box to the NTE5 back box.

In reply to a post by David_W:

Any cable will do, as it's voice and a short run, though it really should be twisted pair. There's no problem using Category 5e.

It MUST be twisted pair - CW1308, Cat4, Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6 ... there is a need to minimise noise and present a reasonable impedance to the filter. In this case the distance might be small but in others it could be a lot more and is always best to use teh right solution.

Edit to add:

Could even use Cat3 cable. Just don't use alarm cable, flat telephone cable or bell wire - and I have seen phone installation with that!

Edited by MHC (Tue 01-Oct-13 18:51:00)

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Any cable will do, as it's voice and a short run, though it really should be twisted pair. There's no problem using Category 5e.

It MUST be twisted pair - CW1308, Cat4, Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6 ... there is a need to minimise noise and present a reasonable impedance to the filter. In this case the distance might be small but in others it could be a lot more and is always best to use teh right solution.

Category 3 if you still have any...

You make an excellent point. The filter attenuates noise, but does not block it completely, also an impedance mismatch will throw the filtering off.

In this case, it makes no difference, as Jez was checking Category 5e cable (twisted and of higher spec than CW1308) was OK to use. However, if that oval stuff I saw in his previous picture is untwisted as I suspect, I strongly recommend he replaces it with twisted pair cable.

Waiiiiit a second, aren't we talking about the phone line here rather than the signal that goes to the VDSL modem? Are you saying that it would be a bad idea to keep my current line for the voice side of things and add cat5e cable for the ethernet; that even the existing wiring should also be replaced with cat5e?

It's you that insists you don't want two wires.

To have the modem downstairs and the router upstairs you have to have Cat5e Ethernet between the two.

Therefore you either have two wires, or you replace the existing wire with the ethernet cable and do both through that.

I thought you got that 327 posts ago? .

Or are you getting mixed up with the physical layout at the master socket end. I have to admit that is giving me trouble as well, though what they are suggesting is a very professional setup.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It's you that insists you don't want two wires.

To have the modem downstairs and the router upstairs you have to have Cat5e Ethernet between the two.

Therefore you either have two wires, or you replace the existing wire with the ethernet cable and do both through that.

I thought you got that 327 posts ago? .

Or are you getting mixed up with the physical layout at the master socket end. I have to admit that is giving me trouble as well, though what they are suggesting is a very professional setup.

No I'm still considering the 2 wire possibility. But it looks like they're actually recommending that BOTH the wires be cat5e or something now...

Edited by jez9999 (Tue 01-Oct-13 21:20:36)

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Waiiiiit a second, aren't we talking about the phone line here rather than the signal that goes to the VDSL modem? Are you saying that it would be a bad idea to keep my current line for the voice side of things and add cat5e cable for the ethernet; that even the existing wiring should also be replaced with cat5e?

What we're saying is that, in an ideal world, you'd get rid of all non-twisted pair cable amongst your extensions, as it has the potential to introduce noise on the line notwithstanding the filter (and the BT Openreach interstital filter is a good filter - it's just a matter of physics).

The key thing is to use twisted pair cable right by the filter, as that's where any effect will be the greatest. As you're looking at installing new cable there, simply use whatever twisted pair cable you're installing to hook up to the NTE5.

I've got a nasty piece of cable amongst my extensions, which was installed by the builders through some brickwork so I can't easily replace it. It causes me no observable problems.


Sometimes, there's a gap between what is ideal and what is easily achievable. If you install things as we've suggested, with the modem at the master socket, the data running in Ethernet, and your extensions running over twisted pair cable right by the master, your installation will be much better than many already 'in the field' that work perfectly well.

There comes a point where 'suck it and see' is a valid approach. Once your FTTC is installed and working, if you think the speed you're getting is affected by your extensions, it's an easy job to disconnect them (remove the screws and pull the faceplate away from the filter) and see if things improve.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

...I'm still considering the 2 wire possibility...

Excellent ADSL2+ modem/routers ....

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Excellent ADSL2+ modem/routers ....

Yes I keep meaning to get one, but now plans have changed since they have just stuck a FTTC cabinet and laid optic fibre near my old cabinet and I'm now waiting for the FTTC self install go ahead from BTw...

Probably a lot of folks around here will self install onto existing extensions and many of them will be no better off for speed than if they had stayed on ADSL2+

Plusnet reckon FTTC will be available here and gave an estimated date of 31st May 2014. No news on self installs or all-in-one modem/routers yet though...the PN sales chap seemed very knowledgeable about fibre (and xDSL in general) and suggested calling again at the beginning of November (before the current fibre offers end) just to check again

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Plusnet reckon FTTC will be available here and gave an estimated date of 31st May 2014.

Be aware that "31st May 2014" is the current "we have no idea if or when it is coming" date.

In reply to a post by kasg:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Plusnet reckon FTTC will be available here and gave an estimated date of 31st May 2014.

Be aware that "31st May 2014" is the current "we have no idea if or when it is coming" date.

Cheers, actually I was more interested in a customer's own installation where a technician isn't needed for fitting a interstitial faceplate, modem and a possible "data extension kit" and, together with that, whether PN might be considering supplying all-in-one modem/routers at some point in the future.

I would imagine that when self install becomes the norm there would conceivably be a charge for a technician to fit the modem etc. ?

In reply to a post by David_W:

If you have to buy the bits and pieces, Comms Express want £23.99 for 100m of cable.

Do you know where I could get something like this, but with the cable in white? Grey really doesn't look good on a white-painted wall...

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

If you have to buy the bits and pieces, Comms Express want £23.99 for 100m of cable.

Do you know where I could get something like this, but with the cable in white? Grey really doesn't look good on a white-painted wall...

Possibly ebay for white if 20 meters is all you need http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270631025970?ssPageName=ST...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

If you have to buy the bits and pieces, Comms Express want £23.99 for 100m of cable.

Do you know where I could get something like this, but with the cable in white? Grey really doesn't look good on a white-painted wall...

Possibly ebay for white if 20 meters is all you need http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270631025970?ssPageName=ST...

Why is it so hard to find the white cabling though? A dodgy ebay site for a mere 20 metres, whereas with other colours they're all over the place.

Though given the wider picture that Openreach wants the commercial roll-out finished by end of Spring 2014 it is less of a moveable option than previous dates.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Why is it so hard to find the white cabling though? A dodgy ebay site for a mere 20 metres, whereas with other colours they're all over the place.

Can recommend* telephone-wiring.co.uk. Managed to get all the cable, crimps and junction boxes I needed from one place.

Solid copper LSZH cat5e here

Simon.

*No connection, just a customer...

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Possibly ebay for white if 20 meters is all you need http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270631025970?ssPageName=ST...

Why is it so hard to find the white cabling though? A dodgy ebay site for a mere 20 metres, whereas with other colours they're all over the place.

Good question!

Yet I bought some very good quality white, solid core, 4 pairs, CAT5e from Amazon a while ago and it was indeed less expensive, but I couldn't find any on Amazon a few days ago...

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 09-Oct-13 10:12:10)

In reply to a post by 4M2:

but I couldn't find any on Amazon a few days ago...

50m, £14.65, free delivery.

That may not be solid core... 100m reel, £30.07+p&p.

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

but I couldn't find any on Amazon a few days ago...

50m, £14.65, free delivery.

Is that solid core and why does it say "Suitable for up to 100Mbps"?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Is that solid core

Possibly not, hence Link

and why does it say "Suitable for up to 100Mbps"?

No idea.

Edited by billford (Wed 09-Oct-13 10:31:49)

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Is that solid core

Possibly not, hence Link

and why does it say "Suitable for up to 100Mbps"?

No idea.

I've got a 20 meter rj45 ethernet patch cable (not solid core) and certainly that's not really suitable for gigabit networking

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I've got a 20 meter rj45 ethernet patch cable (not solid core)

So have I, it works OK for short lengths though.

and certainly that's not really suitable for gigabit networking

FTTC (as per the OP) isn't gigabit

It should be fine for FTTC speeds I'd think.

But if the OP gets a 2 pair, sold core CAT5 "data extension kit" as part of the installation and he uses the 2 cables solution, i.e. one cable for 100Mbps ethernet from modem to router and retains the existing phone extension for filtered voice, that might also be viable for FTTC using the 2 twisted pairs of the CAT5?

4 pair CAT5e would be future proof though if he should wish to have a gigabit network at some point or indeed if he wants the single cable solution using 2 pairs of the CAT5e for 100Mbps ethernet and one pair for filtered voice...

It depends what the OP wants to do... and what equipment he's got.

Some of my network is gigabit capable but most of it is 10/100- simply because the devices on that part of it only have 10/100 ethernet ports. So why bother with gigabit?

If any of those devices get updated to ones with gigabit ports (and can make use of them!) the cost of a new length of cable is likely to be trivial and, looking at the devices involved, it's not very likely to happen!

Yep, I know what you mean: I've got an XP machine with a 100Mbps motherboard network adaptor, I can use a gigabit PCI adaptor but it tends to draw too much power from a low wattage PSU, so reverted back to the Intel 10/100

Best supplier of cable that I use:

http://www.fscables.com/Data/Structured+Wiring+Cable...

They will provide whatever length you require - subject to a minimum order quantity.

As like as not it will be CCA (cooper covered aluminium) cable.

This is "solid core" but not solid copper.

The last time I looked CCA cables were not approved to any standard but would, generally, work after a fashion.

These are available for around £50 or so for 305 metres so the sums just stack up.

Nasty, nasty cable though.

Yes the 20 metre length of CAT5e 4 pair, solid core cable I bought from Amazon some time ago is definetly 100% copper but ,as I said before, I can not find it on Amazon now...

In reply to a post by billford:

It depends what the OP wants to do... and what equipment he's got.

Some of my network is gigabit capable but most of it is 10/100- simply because the devices on that part of it only have 10/100 ethernet ports. So why bother with gigabit?

If any of those devices get updated to ones with gigabit ports (and can make use of them!) the cost of a new length of cable is likely to be trivial and, looking at the devices involved, it's not very likely to happen!

As I'm running fresh cable I want to run cat5e that is suitable for gigabit networking. Are any of the links posted in this thread good enough? Would this cable be OK?

As long as it is solid copper then yes. It it is solid (not stranded) but CCA then it depends on your view of CCA cables.

Many people purchase UTP cables assuming that they are solid copper rather than solid (not stranded) and they don't say what they are made of.

This cable "looks" ok and the price looks alright (not too low for it to be guaranteed CCA.

In reply to a post by bet_here:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Why is it so hard to find the white cabling though? A dodgy ebay site for a mere 20 metres, whereas with other colours they're all over the place.

Can recommend* telephone-wiring.co.uk. Managed to get all the cable, crimps and junction boxes I needed from one place.

Solid copper LSZH cat5e here

Simon.

*No connection, just a customer...

What an awful site. Tried to put in an order with them, got redirected to Worldpay, paid, and didn't get redirected back to their site. Reloaded their site and my shopping cart is still full! Called their phone number and got a [censored] answerphone. What a bunch of scam artists.

I tried to setup a couple of RJ45 panels connected by a cat5e cable as a test, and it isn't working! Here are some pics of it:

http://game-point.net/misc/wiring1.png
http://game-point.net/misc/wiring2.png
http://game-point.net/misc/wiring3.png

I plug my PC's NIC into one panel, and my router into the other. When they're directly connected with one cable, I can access a web interface on the router using its IP address, but through this setup, there's no connection. In addition, nothing lights up on the NIC card when I plug in the cable. What am I doing wrong??

Looks OK - do you have a basic meter to check continuity between pins on the two RJ45 sockets?

Try punching the cables in again. Make sure the two patch leads are straight through and working individually.

Looking at the third of your pictures (the close up), the '1' wire (orange/white) has definitely not been cut by the metal blade in the IDC block, which would prevent an Ethernet link from working. Some of the others look a bit suspect.

If you look from the side, the wire should be at the bottom of the channel in the IDC block if it has been properly pushed home. I'm not sure what tool you've used - it's not a proper or knock-off Krone tool, as that would have trimmed the excess wire. The plastic tools can be difficult to use, and can go blunt after one or two wires if you don't get the alignment of the tool and the connector just right. Don't ever use a screwdriver or similar - it ruins the blade in the IDC block.

If you have a multimeter, put it in continuity mode and touch one probe to the metal blade in the same 'colour' at each end. You'll soon figure out which wires have continuity and which don't. For 100Base-TX (fast Ethernet), you need 1/2 (orange pair) and 3/6 (looks like the green pair, but I'm not certain). Gigabit Ethernet uses all four pairs.


I realise you're just making up test pieces at the moment, but it will help to bring in the cable from the other direction - if you don't, you'll struggle to get the faceplate into the back box. The two holes (and the shackle in the middle of the IDC on the BT modules) are designed to cable tie the cable to the module, which is recommended but not essential. If you do fit a cable tie, don't pull it so tight that it crushes the cable.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Looks OK - do you have a basic meter to check continuity between pins on the two RJ45 sockets?

I was comparing 1 (white/orange) with 6 (green) on the third picture. On 6, you can see the lower, narrow part of the blade, which cuts through the insulation, with the wire nestling in the middle. On 1, you cannot see the lower part of the blade - just the upper part, with the wire sitting over the top. It looks like the wire has pressed into the plastic guide at the inboard side, but hasn't pushed into the blade.

It is much easier to make reliable connections with a proper Krone tool (or a knock-off) rather than a plastic tool. I usually push each connection twice to make sure.

I was looking at it on a 'phone screen! And did not want to type too much.

Looking at it now Or, Or/Wh & Bn/Wh look suspect. Bn may also be.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I'm not sure what tool you've used - it's not a proper or knock-off Krone tool, as that would have trimmed the excess wire.

Actually David I'm using the tool that came with the installation kit you mentioned in this post. It looks like this:

http://game-point.net/misc/wiring4.png

It has a black bit at the end that seems like it's meant to chop off excess cable but boy do you have to press the tool down hard to get the blade to move; feelsl ike you're going to break the plastic.

If you have a multimeter, put it in continuity mode and touch one probe to the metal blade in the same 'colour' at each end. You'll soon figure out which wires have continuity and which don't. For 100Base-TX (fast Ethernet), you need 1/2 (orange pair) and 3/6 (looks like the green pair, but I'm not certain). Gigabit Ethernet uses all four pairs.

Again, from that kit, I have a "cable tester". I doubt it's a multimeter.

Most tools need reasonable force but it does ensure correct insertion of the wires. Provided the tool is inserted correctly you should not have any problems and it will trim close to the connector.

When you remove the test wires, don't just pull them out by hand but use the hook on the tool you have - that is what it is for.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

I'm not sure what tool you've used - it's not a proper or knock-off Krone tool, as that would have trimmed the excess wire.

Actually David I'm using the tool that came with the installation kit you mentioned in this post. It looks like this:

http://game-point.net/misc/wiring4.png

It has a black bit at the end that seems like it's meant to chop off excess cable but boy do you have to press the tool down hard to get the blade to move; feelsl ike you're going to break the plastic.

There's a spring loaded mechanism in the handle of this tool (or a genuine Krone tool), which collapses with a loud 'click' when you press as hard as you're supposed to. The excess part of the wire is supposed to rest between the 'notch' that the blade will cross.

When you press down hard enough, the wire slides into the metal blade of the connector, piercing the insulation and making the connection, then the blade snips off the excess wire. Make sure there's something solid under the module when you do this - if you try to do this whilst holding the module in your hand, it will likely force the module from the faceplate, potentially damaging it.


As MHC says, you use the hook that swings out of the handle of the tool to pull a wire from the IDC blocks.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Again, from that kit, I have a "cable tester". I doubt it's a multimeter.

That tester is better than a multimeter for checking your work.

Detach the two parts of the tester from each other. Put a battery in the main part of the tester, and connect a patch cable between the left hand socket on the main part of the tester and the socket on the small part. With the mode switch in manual, you can press the other button to choose the wire you're testing - the LED next to the number will light on the main part. If that wire is connected correctly (and any other wire is connected somehow), the same number will light on the small part of the tester.

Switch to auto, and the tester will cycle round the wires slowly. You will notice that the ninth light (marked with a letter, likely E or G) will not light at the remote end - this is only for shielded cables, and you're testing unshielded cabling. At this point, you'll realise that you don't need sight of the main part to test a cable - you can leave that plugged in running on auto, whilst you watch the remote counting slowly 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, pause, 1 etc.


You've just tested one patch cable. Test another patch cable and prove it's also OK. Use these two patch cables to connect the two parts of the tester to your cabling run, and leave it in auto - you'll soon know which wires are good and which are not.

I suspect 1 is open, probably 2, and maybe some more. Once you've familiarised yourself with your tester, proceed to remake all the connections on both ends with sufficient force to trim the wires, and test again. I expect the cable will then test OK - but if not, you know which wire(s) you need to check at both ends. Once the cable tests OK, disconnect both halves of the tester, connect your equipment and all should work correctly.


Let us know how you get on.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I suspect 1 is open, probably 2, and maybe some more. Once you've familiarised yourself with your tester, proceed to remake all the connections on both ends with sufficient force to trim the wires, and test again. I expect the cable will then test OK - but if not, you know which wire(s) you need to check at both ends. Once the cable tests OK, disconnect both halves of the tester, connect your equipment and all should work correctly.


Let us know how you get on.

Happily, once I got the knack of using the IDC tool and trimming the excess cable, I managed to get much neater and tider connections and it worked fine! Well, the tester says it's fine and I can connect to my router's web interface if I connect it to the downstairs socket. It even inspired me to make a how-to image:

http://game-point.net/misc/rj45-faceplate-wiring.png

Next up is speed testing. That one might be a bit harder though, as I don't have a laptop. I wonder whether there's some way I could speed test the cable using my PC and my Technicolor router...

Edited by jez9999 (Sat 12-Oct-13 04:01:32)

I have a question.

Looking at step 8 (final step) in this pic:

http://game-point.net/misc/rj45-faceplate-wiring.png

It looks like the cat5e cable is meant to be held in place by something threaded through the guide through which I'm holding it? Tha guide is quite shallow too, so I'm guessing I'm meant to cut the cable sheathe by a couple of cm and hold the sheathed twisted pairs in place? Questions:

- Is it meant to be held in place as I described? If not, why is there a guide?
- If so, should the sheathe be removed another couple of cm and the twisted pairs held in place?
- What am I meant to use to hold it in place (some kind of cable tie?) and can I buy it at a bricks and mortar store like Maplin?

Edited by jez9999 (Sat 12-Oct-13 11:47:24)

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Is it meant to be held in place as I described?

Yes.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

If so, should the sheathe be removed another couple of cm and the twisted pairs held in place?

No. It's fine as it is. You should only remove enough sheath to terminate the wires.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What am I meant to use to hold it in place (some kind of cable tie?) and can I buy it at a bricks and mortar store like Maplin?

Yes. A small (generally white/opaque white) cable tie is usually inluded with the socket. in the same manner as this.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Next up is speed testing. That one might be a bit harder though, as I don't have a laptop. I wonder whether there's some way I could speed test the cable using my PC and my Technicolor router...

I usually test a gigabit LAN with file transfers from one computer to another: the transfer rate should be around 800Mbps (100MB/s) depending on the computer hardware and any read/write speed limitations...

panda has already given you some great advice, to which I wanted to add a few thoughts.

In reply to a post by panda:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Is it meant to be held in place as I described?

Yes.

Similarly, on the phone module, the cable should enter from the side so that it rests in the concavity of the plastic shackle in between the IDC blocks, and be cable tied to that shackle. If you are going to use cable ties, it's often easiest to cable tie the cable after stripping the cable's outer sheath, with a fair length of inner pairs exposed. You can then lay the wires across the IDC blocks, untwisting the minimum length possible, before using the Krone tool to insert the wires into the blocks and trim off the excess.

In reply to a post by panda:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

If so, should the sheathe be removed another couple of cm and the twisted pairs held in place?

No. It's fine as it is. You should only remove enough sheath to terminate the wires.

I agree. You put the cable tie around the outer sheath, resisting the temptation to pull it any tighter than needed to offer some support. You should not crush the cable.

In reply to a post by panda:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

What am I meant to use to hold it in place (some kind of cable tie?) and can I buy it at a bricks and mortar store like Maplin?

Yes. A small (generally white/opaque white) cable tie is usually inluded with the socket. in the same manner as this.

I can't verify the sizes on the Maplin web site, but I believe Maplin FP16S will do the job. After fixing the tie, it's best cut off the remaining length flush to the ratchet.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Next up is speed testing. That one might be a bit harder though, as I don't have a laptop. I wonder whether there's some way I could speed test the cable using my PC and my Technicolor router...

I usually test a gigabit LAN with file transfers from one computer to another: the transfer rate should be around 800Mbps (100MB/s) depending on the computer hardware and any read/write speed limitations...

I just tried to do that, but the only laptop I have available (my mum's old one) has a pathetic 100Mbit/sec network card. Still, the thing seemed to transfer OK at about 100Mbit/sec.

Edited by jez9999 (Sat 12-Oct-13 19:13:49)

In reply to a post by David_W:

I can't verify the sizes on the Maplin web site, but I believe Maplin FP16S will do the job. After fixing the tie, it's best cut off the remaining length flush to the ratchet.

I just ended up using one of my many black cable ties sitting around. Updated my diagram to illustrate (bottom left).

http://game-point.net/misc/rj45-faceplate-wiring.png

Edited by jez9999 (Sun 13-Oct-13 00:15:06)

In reply to a post by jez9999:

I just ended up using one of my many black cable ties sitting around.

That looks fine to me - a nice neat job.

Hopefully you're now comfortable with what you're doing. The IDC based system makes fast, reliable connections with a quality tool such as the one you're using.


Are you happy with the phone cabling? As I said earlier, the cables enter the phone module from the side, along the concavity of the plastic shackle. On the socket next to the master, you tie both the cable to the NTE5 faceplate and the cable to the extension to the shackle, and terminate one cable at a time. The IDC blocks are designed to take two wires, one on top of the other.

Perhaps the OP is now going for a 2 cable solution, i.e. a gigabit ethernet CAT5e link between modem and router and retaining the existing phone extension?

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

I just ended up using one of my many black cable ties sitting around.

That looks fine to me - a nice neat job.

Hopefully you're now comfortable with what you're doing. The IDC based system makes fast, reliable connections with a quality tool such as the one you're using.


Are you happy with the phone cabling? As I said earlier, the cables enter the phone module from the side, along the concavity of the plastic shackle. On the socket next to the master, you tie both the cable to the NTE5 faceplate and the cable to the extension to the shackle, and terminate one cable at a time. The IDC blocks are designed to take two wires, one on top of the other.

I haven't really bothered doing the phone cabling neatly, I think the narrow 'entry point' for the ethernet module is much nicer. For the phone cabling I have just removed the sheath for a few centimetres and pushed down into the IDCs as with the ethernet module.

I am indeed much happier doing this telephony wiring now! Thanks for all the help in this thread. Two further things have been brought to my attention today as I was finishing the cabling for Mr. Openreach tomorrow.

1) the cheapo extension I bought and ran upstairs when I first moved into this house 5 years ago seems to use aluminium as a conductor, not copper (good job I didn't opt to turn the upstairs socket into the master!)

2) the mechanism the cheapo faceplate uses for connecting the phone wire is horrendus. The only good thing about it is it's very compact. I basically had to removing the outer wire sheath with a stanley knife, then remove all the inner sheaths with a stanley knife, then put the exposed conductors into the right 'circular housings' and screw down a washer onto them. As I was moving this today to connect two sections of the extension wire, I had to do this simultaneously with 2 phone wires per 'circular housing' to connect them up! I was somewhat amazed when this Heath Robinson setup worked; voice from the faceplate is fine, and voice from the extension beyond that faceplate is also fine; and ADSL2+ still runs over that wire at about the same speed I was getting before! Nevertheless, glad I'll only be using it for voice from tomorrow eve as the ethernet cable will be for VDSL stuff.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Perhaps the OP is now going for a 2 cable solution, i.e. a gigabit ethernet CAT5e link between modem and router and retaining the existing phone extension?

Yep, I did go for that in the end. Works well, but the two cables do look a bit noticeable and ugly (cat5e one is significantly bigger than the phone one and has writing on it). A lick of paint will probably help.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Perhaps the OP is now going for a 2 cable solution, i.e. a gigabit ethernet CAT5e link between modem and router and retaining the existing phone extension?

Yep, I did go for that in the end. Works well, but the two cables do look a bit noticeable and ugly (cat5e one is significantly bigger than the phone one and has writing on it). A lick of paint will probably help.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

I haven't really bothered doing the phone cabling neatly, I think the narrow 'entry point' for the ethernet module is much nicer. For the phone cabling I have just removed the sheath for a few centimetres and pushed down into the IDCs as with the ethernet module.

I agree on the superiority of the entry style of the RJ45 module, which is why I steered you towards the newer 'low profile' RJ45 module with that style of entry. Some of the older Excel RJ45 modules have 'centre shackle' style connections, which are jolly awkward to wire up neatly - especially when wiring up four modules side by side in a double gang faceplate. Unfortunately, the Excel BT socket module is only available in a 'centre shackle' design, but it's still a good quality product at a reasonable price.

As you say, the phone wiring is less critical. Especially as there's fewer wires to support in that cable, I'd regard a 'good enough' job as entirely acceptable.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

1) the cheapo extension I bought and ran upstairs when I first moved into this house 5 years ago seems to use aluminium as a conductor, not copper (good job I didn't opt to turn the upstairs socket into the master!)

2) the mechanism the cheapo faceplate uses for connecting the phone wire is horrendus. The only good thing about it is it's very compact.

Your description underlines why reputable brand IDC based faceplates are infinitely superior to any with screw based terminals, and especially the cheap screw based faceplates in extension kits found on the High Street.

The cheap and nasty grade cable doesn't surprise me either. Sadly, it seems anything goes with these kits. Some use cable that isn't twisted pair, which can lead to very poor DSL performance. If your kit used twisted pair cable with a round cross-section, you might have got away using the external insulation stripping tool from the tool kit you bought rather than a Stanley knife, but if the cable is as nasty as you describe, that tool may have been unable to strip such shallow insulation without slicing off one or more of the wires!


A last resort approach to getting two wires into the same screw terminal is to twist the conductors together, but you have to be very careful not to fracture anything when twisting solid core wires.

It is a very bad idea to solder the wires together before inserting the soldered joint into a screw terminal, as the solder can flow over time within the screw terminal leading to a dodgy joint. Anyone going to the trouble of soldering should solder directly to the faceplate's PCB.

Faced with trying to join two wires at a screw terminal faceplate, I'd stick the faceplate in the bin and install a decent IDC one, especially if the existing setup used a standard back box. Many of the nasties found in High Street extension kits use strange miniature back boxes of non-standard sizes, which won't take a standard or small size IDC faceplate. Sometimes, the resulting decor damage or lack of space mandates reusing a screw terminal nasty.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Perhaps the OP is now going for a 2 cable solution, i.e. a gigabit ethernet CAT5e link between modem and router and retaining the existing phone extension?

Yep, I did go for that in the end. Works well, but the two cables do look a bit noticeable and ugly (cat5e one is significantly bigger than the phone one and has writing on it). A lick of paint will probably help.

I'm sure you did the right thing in the end. Some miniature trunking or paint should tidy things up nicely.

Installing new Category 5e cabling with all four pairs wired means that link will be ready for Gigabit Ethernet if you later move to a product that needs it, such as >100 Mbit/s FTTP. The tester allows you to prove that all four pairs are connected, even though your FTTC installation will only require the two used by Fast Ethernet. It's always a good idea to be future-proof to some degree when installing any cabling.



There won't be many jobs where the engineer discovers that the customer has made any necessary changes in their internal wiring ready for the new setup. I wish you well for the installation, and hope that you feel the effort you've put into preparing for the day is rewarded when everything is up and running.

I chose to let the engineer wall-mount the modem, as it is cooled much better that way. If you wish, you can ask for the modem to be left loose - you can always wall-mount it yourself later.


I believe you're moving to Zen FTTC. If so, I hope you have as good an experience with Zen as I have had in over ten years of being a customer.

...and a very useful feature about the gigabit LAN is that the router can be alternatively positioned next to the modem downstairs and thus there will be the potential for an ethernet connection up to the computer room

Word of warning: Apparently people like Zen are still sending out modems with cables that have "cat5e" written on them but only 4 of the damn pins are connected. I just wasted hours and moved/refitted my ethernet module before realizing that it was fine and the cable was a waste of space. Why the heck are they still making cables that don't have all the pins connected and how can they be called cat5e???

In reply to a post by David_W:

Installing new Category 5e cabling with all four pairs wired means that link will be ready for Gigabit Ethernet if you later move to a product that needs it

... as long as you're using cat5e patch cables that aren't awful 2-pair-why-pay-for-anything-more ones.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Word of warning: Apparently people like Zen are still sending out modems with cables that have "cat5e" written on them but only 4 of the damn pins are connected. I just wasted hours and moved/refitted my ethernet module before realizing that it was fine and the cable was a waste of space. Why the heck are they still making cables that don't have all the pins connected and how can they be called cat5e???

Category 5e is a standard to which the wiring must conform. I am not sure even a strict interpretation of the rules requires all four pairs are connected.

If a quick glance at the plug didn't make it clear the cable didn't have all four pairs connected (you can't always tell with some moulded plugs), the tester you have in your tool kit would have told you very quickly (using the instructions in this post).


I always discard patch cables supplied with equipment, as they're often of poor quality and usually only connect the pairs required for the job intended by the supplier. As my core network switches are both Gigabit, connecting a Gigabit interface using a cable with less than all four pairs usually results in a failure to negotiate a link (unless I force the switch port to a 10 or 100 Mbti/s mode).

There's only one place for a non-four pair cable in my opinion - in the pile of electronic waste waiting for recycling.