FTTC Availability - Puzzled

Hi Folks,

Since last November, the cabinet at the end of the road (KA3 6LU, Cabinet 29) has had a "Fibre Enabled" sticker on it, although checking with BT Wholesale says it will not be enabled until March 31st 2014. Fair enough, though frustrating. However, my current ISP, Sky Broadband, is offering me a fibre connection albeit at a maximum download of 10.5 Mb, which is not enough of an increase to be worth considering. I am puzzled as to how Sky can offer me a fibre connection at all, given BT's estimated activation date. I do know that the main Kilmarnock exchange is flagged as "accepting orders", so is it possible that Sky would use an enabled cabinet at some further distance, thus accounting for the low line speed?

You can only get FTTC via the cabinet your line routes through, and the availability of a connection there is not dependent on which ISP you select.


Most ISPs use the BT Wholesale network to get their traffic from the BT Openreach fibre handover node (at your exchange, or sometimes at another nearby exchange depending on the chosen routing for the local BT Openreach fibre network) back to the ISP's own network. The BT Wholesale connection is almost invariably available from the day FTTx service is available, so there is no additional delay in ordering from any ISP using BT Wholesale.

There are a handful of ISPs who use their own backhaul networks rather than BT Wholesale:

• TalkTalk (including, I guess, TalkTalk wholesale)
• Sky
• Zen (in some cases - though Zen use BT Wholesale if their own network is unavailable)

These ISPs sometimes take longer to get connected to the BT Openreach fibre handover node, so there can be an additional delay for those wishing to use these ISPs.


The most interesting thing will be the output from the BT availability checker. If possible, use your phone number. If that doesn't work (for example, if your line is currently with Sky or TalkTalk), use the address version. The postcode version is unreliable for FTTx.

Is this output still showing March 31st 2014? This is a placeholder date, and cabinet are often enabled sooner than the placeholder date.


If Sky are giving you an estimate of around 10 Mbit/s downstream speed, it sounds like your line is on an enabled cabinet, but you're a long way away from it. Some ISPs won't sell an FTTC based service unless the estimate is at least 15Mbit/s, which might explain what you are seeing.

Unfortunately, there's no cheap way of taking FTTC from another apparently closer cabinet. This would be regarded as a network rearrangement, for which you'd likely have to pay all the install costs. If this is what you wish to do, it would likely be better to wait for full FTTP On Demand roll out and have FTTPoD - though that won't be cheap.

_{Edit: extensive clarifying edits to the original second paragraph, which has now been split in two.}

Edited by deleted (Sat 26-Oct-13 15:11:36)

Thanks for the prompt reply David. Yes, the address checker gave the same availability date, and actual distance from the cabinet is about 300 yds, not accounting for any underground routing, but walking route.

I guess I'll have to stick with ADSL for the time being, although as I rely on the 'net for just about everything - I'm disabled and effectively housebound - I was hoping for a significant speed increase. Ah well....

Once the cabinet goes live you should be able to get a much greater connection speed. At present that cabinet isn't even powered.

Was this from an online Sky checker, or a phone/email discussion? What happens if you try another ISP's site, such as BT itself, PlusNet or AAISP?

In reply to a post by Ribble:

Once the cabinet goes live you should be able to get a much greater connection speed. At present that cabinet isn't even powered.

Then why his cabinet FTTC got a sticker on? If there is a sticker on mean it powered up and LIVE. Very fishy BT.

Sticker shouldn't be there. Unfortunately many cabinets have stickers placed on them before they are live, so the sticker itself is not proof.

Erm...

Hi,

Sorry to hear your having issues.

I've had a look at some historic data and ADSL checker results for some of your neighbours.

It looks like your homes is connect to a cabinet some distance from your bungalow. But BT didn't think it was previously.. I have no idea why! Your neighbours are not connected to the same cab.

I don't think there is much you can do but it is something I've seen before. Is there a second line etc in the property?

What is the history of the property was it a show home etc at some point ?

Have you ever complained about ADSL sync and had BT improve it for you?

Best wishes and good luck.


Regards,


Gareth

Edited by deleted (Sat 26-Oct-13 23:41:52)

As with "Puzzled" I am a loss as to why BT can offer FTTC via a recently enabled FTTC cabinet but other ISPs are unable to use their circuits.

Is this a restraint of trade or does each ISP have to have its own equipment in each enabled exchange?

I would prefer to remain with my current ISP if possible but would dearly like a reasonable speed. Mine has seen 4.2 meg once on a morning test dropping to 0.60 on an evening test!

Any thoughts would be welcomed. Yes Openreach has been out twice since August and all is apparently OK.

Thanks.

In reply to a post by BBPETER25:

As with "Puzzled" I am a loss as to why BT can offer FTTC via a recently enabled FTTC cabinet but other ISPs are unable to use their circuits.

Is this a restraint of trade or does each ISP have to have its own equipment in each enabled exchange?

The answer lies within a post I made earlier in the thread:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Most ISPs use the BT Wholesale network to get their traffic from the BT Openreach fibre handover node (at your exchange, or sometimes at another nearby exchange depending on the chosen routing for the local BT Openreach fibre network) back to the ISP's own network. The BT Wholesale connection is almost invariably available from the day FTTx service is available, so there is no additional delay in ordering from any ISP using BT Wholesale.

There are a handful of ISPs who use their own backhaul networks rather than BT Wholesale:

• TalkTalk (including, I guess, TalkTalk wholesale)
• Sky
• Zen (in some cases - though Zen use BT Wholesale if their own network is unavailable)

These ISPs sometimes take longer to get connected to the BT Openreach fibre handover node, so there can be an additional delay for those wishing to use these ISPs.

If you are currently with Sky or TalkTalk, you have to wait until the ISP has their network connected to the relevant BT Openreach fibre handover node. It is up to the ISP to extend their network to that node and order the link (called a GEA Cablelink) from BT Openreach.

To my knowledge, all other ISPs use BT Wholesale, which is usually available from the day FTTC is enabled.


Simplifying all this, a FTTC connection has three elements. The first element is the BT Openreach network, which runs from your house to the cabinet over a pair of wires, then on fibre back to the BT Openreach handover node at your exchange or sometimes a nearby exchange. At the BT Openreach handover node, the second element comes into play - a backhaul network, either BT Wholesale or one provided by another company, which takes the traffic to the ISP's core network. The ISP's core network is the third element, which connects the traffic to the wider Internet.

An ISP must use the BT Openreach network to the BT Openreach handover node. From there, it's up to the ISP how much it provides itself and how much it buys from other companies. If an ISP will only use a provider that does not serve the relevant node, you can't order FTTC service from that ISP.


A restraint of trade would be a massive regulatory breach by BT Openreach. BT Openreach have to offer their products to other BT Group companies and non-BT customers on a non-discriminatory basis. Each customer must be treated equally.

_{Edit: corrected all occurrences of "BT Openworld" to "BT Openreach" - what was I thinking?}

Edited by deleted (Sun 27-Oct-13 16:29:52)

More enlightenment about the complexities!

Thanks very much for that information.

In reply to a post by David_W:

It is up to the ISP to extend their network to that node and order the link (called a GEA Cablelink) from BT Openworld.

OpenReach - a BT Group Business. Not "BT Openworld" and its not "BT OpenReach" as the idea is to show its separate from the rest of BT but just owned by. Ask Ofcom as to why they allowed the owned by bit :-/

The email addresses of staff are [email protected] - note no BT in the domain name either.

I have no idea why I wrote "BT Openworld" (an obsolete BT ISP) instead of "BT Openreach" in three places in my that post, James - call it brain fade. I meant "BT Openreach" throughout and have corrected the original post - thanks for pointing it out.

As for the corporate identity versus regulatory arguments, I'll leave those to better minds than mine whilst accepting fully what you say. The logo is "Openreach BT" like, and the domain name is as you say. As it's part of the BT Group, and most people latch on to "BT" but won't necessarily understand anything by "Openreach" without a "BT", I'm not sure what to do for the best.

Edited by deleted (Sun 27-Oct-13 16:33:48)

In reply to a post by David_W:

I have no idea why I wrote "BT Openworld" (an obsolete BT ISP) instead of "BT Openreach" in three places in my that post, James - call it brain fade. I meant "BT Openreach" throughout and have corrected the original post - thanks for pointing it out.

No worries

I'm not sure what to do for the best.

Its a complete mess, Ofcom are to blame. The "average jane/joe" who doesn't follow the debate would assume there is just BT and they're one company with lots of divisions.

Openreach is supposed to be more than just a division (e.g. BT Retail, BT wholesale) - and really be a completely new company that supplies BT in the same way it supplies Sky or TalkTalk. However they're fully owned by BT.

They should have been prevented from using the BT orb logo, or colours, and had a new logo created. Instead it seems a bit of a deliberate (but not illegal) ruse to confuse the consumer :-/

For the sake of the people reading this thread David, I feel I have to say I don't like this description of handover points at exchanges being referred to as nodes. There is also a crucial stage missing from your description of how traffic gets from the exchange to ISPs' core networks.

In the context of your outline description of how UK broadband customer link to their ISP, node these days is usually taken to mean the 20 (BT Wholesale) WBC (Wholesale Broadband Connect) nodes and 10 IPSC (IPStream Connect) nodes dotted around the country. The handover to all BT Wholesale based ISPs occurs at one or more of these nodes, depending on where the ISP wants to transfer it to their own backhaul.

You are right that for FTTx the handover from Openreach to BT Wholesale/Sky/TalkTalk/(a few Zen) occurs at the exchange via GEA (Generic Ethernet Access) , which may or may not be where the user's copper connection is. Some enabled exchanges do not have their own FTTx handover, but the fibre is routed to a "head-end" exchange. You are also correct that BT Wholesale and its using ISPs are often the first to have GEA links installed at newly-enabled exchanges, though Sky and TT are getting better at early provision than they were. (Never beating BTW though).

BT Wholesale ISPs rent handover capacity at the WBC and IPSC nodes. Entanet is a useful case in point, as they use all thirty nodes and publish the loading for their rented handover, updated at 5-minute intervals. I provide a couple of links so people can see where they are, but note that these WBC and IPSC loadings are only for the kit Enta rent and nothing can be gathered about other ISPs from these graphics. Note also that the IPSC handover at these nodes is physically separate equipment and cabling from the WBC stuff. (Presumably merged later).

Sky and TT and a few Zen connections are taken direct by these ISPs from their exchange GEA links into their own backhaul and the WBC nodes are nothing to do with their traffic.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 28-Oct-13 00:28:10)

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/reply/fibre/t427797...

Initially the Sky checker said it was unavailable, so I registered interest for when it became available, and received an email a couple of weeks ago saying that I could now get a fibre connection from them. Every other ISP I have tried (all of 'em) says that fibre is unavailable in my area, like BT Wholesale (presumably because it's BT's data they are referencing). This is why I'm puzzled as to how Sky can offer me fibre at all, let alone at a low speed.

Sorry to all for the delay in responding, was in hospital for a few days - sans broadband, aargh!

Hi,

Sorry to hear your having issues.

I've had a look at some historic data and ADSL checker results for some of your neighbours.

It looks like your homes is connect to a cabinet some distance from your bungalow. But BT didn't think it was previously.. I have no idea why! Your neighbours are not connected to the same cab.

I don't think there is much you can do but it is something I've seen before. Is there a second line etc in the property?

What is the history of the property was it a show home etc at some point ?

Have you ever complained about ADSL sync and had BT improve it for you?

Best wishes and good luck.

I'm a little confused by this reply, was it to me?

Anyway, the house is a mid-terrace council property, and was certainly never a show home, nor has it ever had a second line installed. There are new, private properties at the end of the road, albeit with a different street address, and when these were being connected by BT, about 3 years ago, they inadvertantly disconnected my ADSL and then tried to tell me I'd never had an ADSL connection at all, despite my having had it for about four years at that point. At this time my ISP was UKFSNet, and it took about a week before I got my connection back. Since then, and since moving to Sky Broadband, I've had no problems with ADSL, I'm just somewhat confused by Sky's offer of fibre, as the cabinet appears to be unconnected as yet.

Sky cannot provide you a FTTC connection at this time. I'd guess their sales/marketing team has jumped the gun. Maybe there was a forecast date which has been put back and they didn't stop the email going out.

As with Openreach / BT / BT Openreach, the "handover node" terminology is troubled, as Bob and I have discussed by PM.

Openreach's own documentation uses "handover node" (see, for example, the picture in this GEA Cablelink data sheet, where "NGA Hand Over Node" is used - NGA is "Next Generation Access", one of the acronyms applied to the Openreach FTTx system).


I chose to 'black box' BT Wholesale by saying:

In reply to a post by David_W:

An ISP must use the BT Openreach network to the BT Openreach handover node. From there, it's up to the ISP how much it provides itself and how much it buys from other companies.

In this context, I was merely trying to draw out that different ISPs use different backhaul, and it is the availability of the different backhaul networks at the relevant Openreach fibre handover node that determines which FTTC ISPs you can order from.


For anyone interested in opening the 'black box' and delving into the architecture of the BT Wholesale networks, I commend Bob's post.

Unfortunately, BT SIN 472, which documents BT Wholesale WBC, is extremely technical. In Section 5, the terminology used for the nodes Bob refers to is WBC PoSI node (Point of Service Interconnect), with an associated virtual router for the ISP termed an AP (Aggregation Point) and an EP (Extension Path) to connect the AP to the ISP's core network.

WBMC Shared, the service where BT Wholesale provide presence at the 20 WBC PoSI nodes and the 10 nodes where 20CN traffic is available for interconnect in a 21CN like manner (referred to as "IPStream Connect BRAS nodes" in section 3.3.3 of BT SIN 482) and aggregates the traffic on a shared network before delivering it across Host Links to the ISP adds a further level of complexity on top of WBC. There's a diagram in section 4.1 of SIN 471 that gives a high level overview.

There's also a more bespoke version of WBMC called WBMC Dedicated, which allows larger ISPs to have WBMC bandwidth dedicated to them from one or more of the WBC PoSI nodes and IPsC BRAS nodes. They can use WBMC Shared for any nodes where they don't have WBMC Dedicated presence, or they can use WBC at those nodes and haul that traffic back to their network themselves (though a WBMC and WBC mixture is a complex setup that BT Wholesale don't recommend).


The more you delve into WBC, WBMC and IPsC, the more levels of complexity are revealed. What I don't see is "handover node" anywhere in the documentation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was used somewhere.



In the context this arose - which ISPs are available from a particular FTTC line, I'm sure 'black boxing' BT Wholesale was the right decision!

Thanks to all who replied to my post, I guess I'll just have to be patient for a little longer.