FTTPoD what happend?

I have been waiting for some news on FTTPoD rollout, seems to have gone so quiet? I thought it would here in the summer, now its the end of the year? Anyone have some new information?

The news article below is the latest news that we have, exchanges are being enabled in groups and more are expected by the end of December.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6058-fibre-on-dem...

There will be very slow roll out just like FTTC roil out. I don't expect FTTPoD will be roll out pretty quickly.

The benefit of FTTPoD is that they only have to do work if someone is willing to pay for it. The downside is they need to train the local engineers (without knowing takeup) and the economics pay off when more than one person takes up a service within an area (a single person in a street is unlikely to cover all the costs and so BT are betting then on others taking up service).

So, much lower up front investment than FTTC but some of the same risks of costs not being covered if takeup is not high enough.

Don't really understand why they are limiting themselves to 300/30 when they're offering 80/20 for standard FTTP.

The 330/30 Mbit/s limit of FTTPoD is imposed for the same reason as the 36 month minimum term - to make the economics of ad hoc extensions to the fibre network more favourable to Openreach.

Hopefully, in time, Openreach find ways to extend the reach of the fibre network using cost sharing, but on terms that are more favourable to the CP and, ultimately, to the end user.

of course it works both ways tho.

the 36 months is a barrier to entry, it will reduce takeup.

the high setup fee is another barrier and someone who has a high estimated sync speed on FTTC will probably find it hard to justify the install costs for a extra measly 10mbit upload.

I think there's a broad range of developments needed if FTTPoD is to become anything other than a niche product for a small number of business users and wealthy residential users.


At the moment, the tiny number of exchange areas in which FTTPoD is available means it is really only in an early deployment type scenario. This may reflect the huge amount of FTTP work still to be done in relation to the commercial roll-out (though much of this was switched to FTTC) and for BDUK - if FTTP deployment resources are needed for this work, they are not necessarily available for FTTPoD roll-out.

As you rightly say, the product itself isn't that enticing - 30 Mbit/s upload is too slow for the costs involved.

The costs of FTTPoD are difficult to justify on a price/performance basis. Those who are the furthest from the cabinet, who have the most to gain from FTTPoD, are likely to be amongst the furthest from the aggregation node who therefore face the highest up-front costs for FTTPoD.

FTTP itself is sufficiently rare that few ISPs have a 330/30 Mbit/s product to offer.


I think the cost-sharing model for deeper fibre roll-out is a good one - Openreach invest knowing there is some sort of return, and the roll-out is targeted directly to those willing to subscribe. Hopefully the cost of FTTP deployment drops over time, allowing the creation of a more attractive FTTPoD offering.


I'd love to be free of DSL over a metallic pair, which I regard as a fundamentally kludgey (but nevertheless brilliant) technology. However, with solid fast path 80/20 Mbit/s service and almost no justification for a faster connection, I'm sticking with what I have at a very attractive price. I'm paying a few pence per month less today for unlimited 80/20 Mbit/s FTTC as I was this time last year for 16/1 Mbit/s ADSL2+ with a 200 GByte/month downstream cap.

The downside is they need to train the local engineers

But then they are training a few for the FTTP that is creeping in too. If interested, there are four engineers trained to install FTTP/oD round this way. But the work is still few and far between.

Cue http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6208-fibre-on-dem... another batch of 82

The costs of FTTPoD are difficult to justify on a price/performance basis. Those who are the furthest from the cabinet, who have the most to gain from FTTPoD, are likely to be amongst the furthest from the aggregation node who therefore face the highest up-front costs for FTTPoD.

I may well be in an unusual position but my line is about 600metres long giving me around 50Mb down and 15Mb up. But, radial distance from cabinet is around 150-200metres (it was a newer estate so it passes all the old houses and then does virtually a 180 turn to get up to my house - cables follow the road).

So, if the DP is anywhere near the cab it could be a relatively low cost install to get a 6 times up and double down rate.

Monthly costs don't worry me too much - it isn't necessarily wildly more than FTTC. But, there is no way I am signing up to a 3 year contract for broadband - things change far too quickly. Until they reduce contract term I won't be signing up for FTTPoD.

Yep 36 months is far too long contract for broadband. I don't think BT will never reduced this contract to short term for the future. BT want the money. You are better off with Virgin Media 152Meg in 2014 for 12 months contract and cheaper monthly payment but installation charge will be lots cheaper than Openreach £1500+ but who care about 330/30 anyway. We don't need that for the next ten years. 80/20 is more than enough for every days use of internet including HD/4K.

Edited by adslmax (Wed 18-Dec-13 15:25:50)

Unfortunately I am not better off with VM as they don't serve my part of the country (very limited coverage in my County with VM) - they were going to rollout to the city but the council refused permission to dig up the pavements (this was a long time ago!).

In reply to a post by ian72:

the council refused permission to dig up the pavements (this was a long time ago!).

The council might refused premission to dig up the pavements for FTTPoD to your property. As I believe you have to ask council premission or BT have to ask them first too.

Lots of mights, but FoD can go overhead or through existing ducting.

How often does a council refuse a property the right to a telephone line?

Ducts are already in place for BT - and likely even if they are blocked council would allow BT to repair. It was just VM they blocked I think in the 80's.

I'd give my right arm for the opportunity to take the FTTPoD package even as a residential user. The cost is potentially prohibitive, but the 36 month contract doesn't bother me - I've got no plans to move home.

I'm just hoping that Openreach/BT/whoever doesn't decree that my home is once more ineligible for any sort of modern broadband access. So far I've been denied ADSL 2+ because my exchange was not deemed worthy and I can't get FTTC because of a completely inappropriate network topography put in place for PSTN in the last century. I live about 3.5k from the exchange, but unfortunately about 3k from the FTTC-enabled cabinet.

I'm prepared to invest in the future of my property (and my career in software development, technical writing and audio production), but I'm at the mercy of Openreach and their slow roll-out (if I get it at all). It's frustrating to say the least.

Cheers,

Maurice

You will not be happy to hear that FTTPoD is ONLY available to those for which FTTC is available. So, under present rules you cannot order it.

Are you sure?
Sounds like mrkelly is connected to a FTTC enabled cabinet but is too far away to get a connection.

Could be eye wateringly expensive at that distance though
Requires a custom quote over 2000m.

My understanding is that people only get an offer of FTTPoD if they already get offered FTTC via the checker - if the checker says FTTC is not available for the line then I don't think you can order FTTPoD - but I have no way to confirm that so may be wrong.

Technically if it's available at your exchange and you're on an FTTC enabled cab you should be able to order FTTPoD, however the install cost has 3 elements to it. Setup, distance based charge and excess construction charges. The further away you are the higher the distance based charge and anyone that can't get FTTC because of distance almost certainly fits in the "quote available on request" category and there's also an increased risk of excess construction charges being needed (new ducts, road closures, new poles etc.).

In the trial we weren't able to find any of our customers on lines that fell into this category but did have a couple that were sub 15Mbps on FTTC. Had we been paying (original trial lines were free) one of them would've cost over £16k and the other around £2k I think.

In reply to a post by ian72:

My understanding is that people only get an offer of FTTPoD if they already get offered FTTC via the checker - if the checker says FTTC is not available for the line then I don't think you can order FTTPoD - but I have no way to confirm that so may be wrong.

I was made aware of the FTTPoD product by an employee of Openreach who was involved in the FTTC roll-out in Northern Ireland. He was asked if there were any plans to rationalise the distribution of cabinets in order to make FTTC available to more potential customers, and he said no - my only options were moving house, satellite, or FTTPoD when it became available. It's not an official word, but at the minute it's my only hope (I don't think I could tolerate satellite broadband, and I won't be leaving this house unless it's in a wooden box )

In reply to a post by DaveTomlinson:

Technically if it's available at your exchange and you're on an FTTC enabled cab you should be able to order FTTPoD, however the install cost has 3 elements to it. Setup, distance based charge and excess construction charges.

Thanks for this information. 16k would be steep, but I'd see it as future proofing my own property, and an investment in my work, and my kids education. Hopefully it won't amount to that much though!

Setup (AFAIR) is a fixed fee, so I'm not too worried about that.

The distance based charge is based on radial distance from the aggregation node, IIRC. I don't know where the aggregation node is specifically, but if it's beside the cabinet, then I estimate it being about 2.5km away (as is common with rural telephone lines, my line runs slightly in the wrong direction before taking a turn up my road). If it was from the exchange it would be even better as the exchange is closer radial distance wise! When the FTTC roll-out was taking place, the contracted engineers did a lot of work at the end of my road, as the fibre seemed to have a junction there - this could possibly be an aggregation node (in my hopeful mind). Out of interest, does anyone know if there's a way to locate aggregation nodes?

With regard to excess construction charges, I'm hopeful on that front as well. I've talked to employees of KN Network Services, who do most (if not all) of the FTT* work for Openreach/BT in Northern Ireland. They kindly informed me that there are fibre connections running right past my house between two towns as part of a schools hookup program. While I'm not na�ve enough to think they can just "tap" off that fibre, it gives me confidence that they have ducting all along my road. I'm also confident that I know the precise location where my own telephone line surfaces from it's underground travels and snakes up the poles for the last 20-30 metres to the house. This gives me further hope that FTTPoD for me is a case of blowing extra fibre along existing ducting and performing the work required at each end.

There's a lot of assumptions in there, but hopefully I'm not just a dreamer. I'm also an electrical engineer who now works in software, so I've got reasonable expectations and an understanding of how the technology works, and the practicalities of it. The biggest unknown for me is probably the business decisions that go into it.

In the meantime, I'm going to keep setting aside money each month into my savings pot marked "FTTPoD Fund". Don't tell the wife

Cheers,

Maurice

For me it's not even the install that's the issue. It's the 36 month contract and retail propositions around the 100GBP/month mark that are the not so hot parts.

An awful lot can happen in 36 months, I take a moment of pause signing up for 12 or 18 months, let alone a full 3 years.

If the contract were less prolonged and the products available better reflected the full GEA-FTTP product set it would be a different matter.

your post says a lot, a person who is internet affluent and spends more than the average joe bloggs on connectivity stating the FTTPoD terms are an issue. Doesnt bode well.

BTW Dave, I'm currently with BT Broadband, but I had been keen to move to PlusNet when FTTPoD became an option. My employer's ISP is PlusNet and I've been really impressed with the service, so I've been wanting to jump ship, just not yet as I didn't want to tie myself into another regular ADSL contract.

Are there any communication channels I can subscribe to with PlusNet to find out more about FTTPoD products and availability in the meantime. Or to get involved in future trials of such products?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

your post says a lot, a person who is internet affluent and spends more than the average joe bloggs on connectivity stating the FTTPoD terms are an issue. Doesnt bode well.

Yep, the big problem is that the costs are a lot for most home users. Not so bad for businesses, but I think the lack of SLAs compared to leased lines make them less appealing to people whose income depends upon their connectivity.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

If the contract were less prolonged and the products available better reflected the full GEA-FTTP product set it would be a different matter.

I'm not competent to comment on whether the charges reflect the actual costs, but a common inference in this sort of situation is that the company is under pressure from someone¹ to make the product available, but they don't really want to� then in due course they can claim "Look, there's no demand for it"


¹ Ofcom? it would make a change.

Get a quote from BTO how much in total inc VAT for FTTPoD and get a quote from Virgin Media how much in total inc VAT for Cable Broadband Stand Alone.

I bet Virgin Media come out the cheaper one than BTO.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I bet Virgin Media come out the cheaper one than BTO.

It certainly would in my case, Virgin cable is already available at the end of my front garden if I want it!

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Get a quote from BTO how much in total inc VAT for FTTPoD and get a quote from Virgin Media how much in total inc VAT for Cable Broadband Stand Alone.

I bet Virgin Media come out the cheaper one than BTO.

What's the significance of Cable Broadband Stand Alone? I don't live in a cabled area anymore so I'm not sure what it's supposed to offer over FTTPoD or FTTC.

Hmm.

A better comparison would be to compare FTTP in areas where it's already built with Virgin Media.

If comparing FTTPoD with asking VM for a quote to service a single new property that isn't on their network then, no, Virgin wouldn't be cheaper even if they did supply a quote. With FTTPoD Openreach are sucking up a fair whack of the costs on the first connection, VM would be wanting the full cost of construction.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

your post says a lot, a person who is internet affluent and spends more than the average joe bloggs on connectivity stating the FTTPoD terms are an issue. Doesnt bode well.

You need to copyright the phrase 'internet affluent'.

Yes, by Monday I'll have 2 x FTTC coming in, one of which my employer pays for, but even then FTTPoD doesn't even enter the equation as it stands.

It's very much a niche product for now, which is exactly how Openreach want it else they'd deliver more options.

In reply to a post by mrkelly:

Yep, the big problem is that the costs are a lot for most home users. Not so bad for businesses, but I think the lack of SLAs compared to leased lines make them less appealing to people whose income depends upon their connectivity.

The case for this versus 2 x FTTC lines, load balanced via diverse carriers is a precarious one.

A business that can make do with 30Mb upstream is unlikely to require more than 100Mb downstream.

FTTPoD's main takers, for me, will be businesses that don't want to pay for a leased line, and are too far away from their serving cabinet to receive good FTTC speeds.

In other words, not very many.

From a purely selfish point of view I really don't care where they're positioning the product. It's pretty much all I can see that could get me a directly connected downstream speed above 5Mbps and upstream above 0.4Mbps. If they're offering only because they have to keep Ofcom or some other body happy so be it. As long as it's not just yet another product on a shelf that I can't have because of the postcode lottery that is nationwide broadband provision in the UK.

At the moment our trial is open if anyone can get it and wants to take part but we aren't actively promoting it.

For availability the best way is to check the BTW checker:

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

If/when it's available it will show on there.

When we move to anything beyond the low key trial we'll put an update on our community site. If it already shows as being available then feel free to contact me via PM and I can get you a better idea of the cost.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

For me it's not even the install that's the issue. It's the 36 month contract and retail propositions around the 100GBP/month mark that are the not so hot parts.

An awful lot can happen in 36 months, I take a moment of pause signing up for 12 or 18 months, let alone a full 3 years.

If the contract were less prolonged and the products available better reflected the full GEA-FTTP product set it would be a different matter.

I may be missing something but why is 36 months such a problem for homeowners who don't plan on moving? It's not as if you're signing up for something which is current technology that might get replaced (eg ADSL2 replaced by FTTC) - nothing is going to be faster than FTTP in the next 3 years?

Any awful lot can happen in 36 months !

A desirable but non-essential commitment of £100pm for three years is not something most of us take on lightly, even if at the time we can afford it. Quite apart from in this cases the high initial capital outlay.

sorry but 3 years is ridicolous and your comment is also insulting to the millions who dont own their home.

Many isps change hugely over a 3 year period and as stated earlier a 18 month contract already requires a lot of thinking to commit to never mind 3 years.

Even with homeowners, they cant really see the future, issues may happen that leads to them moving home.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

sorry but 3 years is ridicolous and your comment is also insulting to the millions who dont own their home.

Many isps change hugely over a 3 year period and as stated earlier a 18 month contract already requires a lot of thinking to commit to never mind 3 years.

Even with homeowners, they cant really see the future, issues may happen that leads to them moving home.

I take your point that 36 months is not suitable for people renting (who would also be unlikely to want to pay the upfront outlay given it is not an investment in their home). As I mentioned though, I would only consider a 36 month contract as a home owner who did not intend to move - it's hardly an insulting comment to anyone!

RobertoS mentioned £100 per month. Where does this number come from? During the 3yr contract term, AAISP charge £20 + the number of units you use (around £5 per month for the amount I use it). People's circumstances change but other broadband packages are not much cheaper than this so it's not an excessive commitment if you think you'll need broadband irrespective of your circumstances. AAISP's monthly price increases after the initial 3yr term but you're free to move at that point if someone is better.

The fact that ISPs change over 3 years is very fair - there is clearly a risk here so you would need to choose your ISP carefully.

It's clearly a niche product given the upfront cost is not affordable to everyone. However, it is an option available which is better than not having any choice at all isn't it? The install cost is a significant barrier to people but if you can afford and justify this, the 36 month contract seems less of an issue to me on a relative basis.

Where did you get the AAISP figures from?
Are you pricing that at 40/10 speeds?
For their normal FTTP product they charge an extra £51.60 a month to up your speed to 100/30.
Link

A 330/30 product would be a very scary product for me on the units based tariff.
You could be billed at around £500 per hour during the day !

FTTPoD 300/30 isn't suitable for council renting house or flat for 36 months. For homeowner, yes if they already paid off their mortgage and had no plan to move within the next 36 months.

I think 36 months is a bit harsh by BTO. Should be 12 months.

In reply to a post by bdo21:

I may be missing something but why is 36 months such a problem for homeowners who don't plan on moving? It's not as if you're signing up for something which is current technology that might get replaced (eg ADSL2 replaced by FTTC) - nothing is going to be faster than FTTP in the next 3 years?

It's all well and good not planning on moving. Given 1 in 6 home owners would be put into deep excreta by a relatively modest interest rate increase and hardly anyone has a totally secure job it seems very few indeed could be assured they'd be safe.

If you have no outstanding mortgage and a fixed, guaranteed income perhaps you're fine. For those who aren't retired / buy to let landlords / independently wealthy / baby boomers it's a quite different story.

Am sure a shorter contract is possible, but will mean it costs more money

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Am sure a shorter contract is possible, but will mean it costs more money

Can you find out how much money if customer option for 12 months?

In reply to a post by gmoorc:

Where did you get the AAISP figures from?
Are you pricing that at 40/10 speeds?
For their normal FTTP product they charge an extra £51.60 a month to up your speed to 100/30.
Link

A 330/30 product would be a very scary product for me on the units based tariff.
You could be billed at around £500 per hour during the day !

They told me this in an email when we were clearly discussing FTTPoD (which is only available 330/30 so it can't be 40/10. I agree the metered pricing is concerning although I don't expect my usage to increase materially. The price is £75/month after the 3 year contract (+usage). A quote from the email is below:

"Monthly cost for first 3 years is £20.00 and then £75 per month thereafter. Usage will charged be based on units tariff. Minimum of 2 units required for entry level at £3.90 per unit. Each unit would give either 2.5GB peak download allowance or 50GB off peak"

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Am sure a shorter contract is possible, but will mean it costs more money

Can you find out how much money if customer option for 12 months?

If the AAISP pricing in my other post is correct, then one way of implicitly converting this into a one year contract is to compare it to paying two years of the 3 year contract upfront or buying out the 2nd and 3rd years of the contract (ie 24 monthly costs of £20 so £480 extra upfront/buyout costs)

Thanks. That's interesting.
If you can live within their units tariff that's a great price. Almost too good!
Wonder if Openreach have promotional tariffs for FTTPoD at the moment?
The only Openreach price I can find is £45.60 a month including vat for the product rental.

Can I invoice you my consultancy bill first?

Or alternatively - take the roughly £40/month revenue to Openreach over 3 years and now pay that over 12 months.

When I asked originally about the 36 month term, Openreach replied that there was nothing to stop the ISP ramping up the cost so that the 3 years term was paid over a 2 year or any other period

In reply to a post by bdo21:

RobertoS mentioned £100 per month. Where does this number come from?

RobertoS got it from what you quoted in your post that he was replying to .

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 21-Dec-13 14:16:47)

droitwich has fttpod

wr97re

in the case of someone renting a landlord might invest, but the problem is the landlord would also be commiting to a retail isp the tenant may not want, the landlord cannot invest just in the underlying cable itself.

Your BQM is interesting...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

RobertoS got it from what you quoted in your post that he was replying to .

In turn the source of it was a fairly sizable ISP speaking with me about the product and their potential plans for it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Any awful lot can happen in 36 months !

Too right it can. 12 years ago I moved into a new house and two years later I had to sell it as part of a divorce settlement.

maybe in 5 years to sign up to broadband one needs an extensive credit check so they can be approved for the 20 year commitment.

Errr - you have that wrong Chrysalis.

The broadband will be about the same price as now. It's the line rental and calls that will need that.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 22-Dec-13 09:32:17)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

It's all well and good not planning on moving. Given 1 in 6 home owners would be put into deep excreta by a relatively modest interest rate increase and hardly anyone has a totally secure job it seems very few indeed could be assured they'd be safe.

If you have no outstanding mortgage and a fixed, guaranteed income perhaps you're fine. For those who aren't retired / buy to let landlords / independently wealthy / baby boomers it's a quite different story.

I hate to say it, but maybe this product isn't actually intended for everyone to take advantage of. There seems to be a certain amount of entitlement floating around, to the tune of "there's a fast product available right to my door, but it's priced too expensively and the terms are too constrictive for me to take advantage of".

This is an expensive product, that seems to be there to fill a niche requirement, at least in the short term. If someone doesn't have the income, or the stability of accommodation, to take advantage of it, then they can't have it.

I personally would rather the terms were shorter, and the cost lower, but I'm very lucky to have a good job, and some savings to cover it. All I need is for Openreach to get a move on and enable my local exchange, so that I can actually see if it's a viable option.

(PS this response is not intended as a personal attack on Ignitionnet, his/her post was just the one I responded to, as it summed up the sentiments that were expressed by a few posters.)

In reply to a post by mrkelly:

I hate to say it, but maybe this product isn't actually intended for everyone to take advantage of. There seems to be a certain amount of entitlement floating around, to the tune of "there's a fast product available right to my door, but it's priced too expensively and the terms are too constrictive for me to take advantage of".

This is an expensive product, that seems to be there to fill a niche requirement, at least in the short term. If someone doesn't have the income, or the stability of accommodation, to take advantage of it, then they can't have it.

I personally would rather the terms were shorter, and the cost lower, but I'm very lucky to have a good job, and some savings to cover it. All I need is for Openreach to get a move on and enable my local exchange, so that I can actually see if it's a viable option.

(PS this response is not intended as a personal attack on Ignitionnet, his/her post was just the one I responded to, as it summed up the sentiments that were expressed by a few posters.)

No attack taken Mr Kelly you are absolutely spot on. I know this product isn't intended for everyone and, indeed, isn't intended for most people. It's intended for a 'sweet spot' of SMEs and home offices.

This product has an intentionally small niche to avoid it impinging too heavily on leased line revenues and to keep take up low.

For all the complaining about its cost at very least the first install to a street costs Openreach a ton of money, absolutely no question.

Initially you need to be on a FTTC capable line, but suspect this will relax slightly in time once the demand levels for FTTPoD show it was worth doing

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Initially you need to be on a FTTC capable line, but suspect this will relax slightly in time once the demand levels for FTTPoD show it was worth doing

From a personal perspective, that would be intensely disappointing, but I guess these are the problems with commercially driven markets. I can't imagine there being much more than me wanting the service on my rural exchange given that it is actually reasonably well covered for FTTC but for certain pockets of poor coverage as a result of inappropriate network topography.