No Fibre On New Build Estate

So here goes the story....

We've just bought a new build house on a modern estate in Plymouth (Site is called 504k and built by Cavanna Homes). As connectivity was an important factor in the choice of this house we were advised by the sales representatives to check the availability of fibre using the site postcode. This showed that the area was covered by an FTTC enabled cabinet and so all was good.

However when we actually moved in it turned out that the whole estate has been wired to a completely different cabinet. After doing some digging with BT Openreach (had to contact a manager directly in the end for a useful response) it turns out that this cabinet will not fall within their commercial rollout and also not within the BDUK scheme (Connecting Devon and Somerset). The options given to me are either wait, leased line, or privately fund a cabinet upgrade.

So, I�m absolutely amazed that we�ve bought a house in a modern upcoming area and no provision has been made by the developer (Cavanna) or BT Openreach for decent connectivity considering we are already on 100+ houses and this is the first phase out of three. We are currently getting around 2mb via ADSL as we are so far from the exchange.

Does anybody else have any similar experiences / suggestions on how we could tackle this issue? I have already written to the CEO of Cavanna asking if they could help privately fund the cabinet but have had no reply so far.

a similar situation on a large new estate in Beds - a long thread here - They are talking to local council, I suspect the fact site isn't half done might give some leverage

Bad advice by the sales advisor. Any search done too early will be for the sales office, with the single line that Openreach will have installed as a one-off, possibly wired on a temporary overhead connection.

However, when the site is built, the full cable installation will need to go somewhere where there is capacity for perhaps hundreds of lines, and possibly require a new cabinet.

Really bad advice to depend on the former for an idea of what the latter would be - when the site manager will have specific plans, pre-build, for what Openreach intend.

Your worst case is if a new cabinet has been built on-site. That means the cabinet will be on an un-adopted road, and you may need to wait a long time for progress.

There is potential good news (although not speedy), as councils seem to have started the process of new "Open Market Reviews" for the 2nd batch of BDUK funding. When CDS do this, it should allow CDS to get that cabinet included in their scheme.

I suggest finding out when CDS intend to run this, and make sure Openreach (or the developer) responds. Then watch for a public consultation afterwards, when you can respond yourself.

Also http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6259-bt-to-invest...

Plymouth is a city whether its one of the 30 I have no idea, but get as many residents and others together to lobby and you might snag some of that money to see improvements.

In my opinion developers should be contacting Openreach and asking them to provide the fibre duct and boxes to the developer to provide fibre to ALL new builld sites over 50 dwellings and some smaller. ( Instead of the copper duct and boxes)

This is a developers problem as they are still providing the copper infrastructure rather than fibre. Openreach appear quite open to developers providing fibre on big sites especially where fibre infrastructure has already been rolled out.

All buyers on new developments should be asking developers if FTTP is fitted, a no answer is likely to mean that people will have the same problems you have. Most large developments need new cabs and therefore do not have enough workers on to meet commercial parameters until the estate is completed.

The developers are responsible for providing the utility duct and boxes (both footway and NTE in the houses) they have the choice of what to ask for if they want to keep selling houses.

I agree with this. The developer is the one to blame for not having considered FTTP for the build. The sales advisor is also to blame for giving false information.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Bad advice by the sales advisor.

If the builder told you that you could be connected to gas or lecky and you later discovered you could not then I am 100% certain you could sue them for misselling the property and win.

I think we have reached the time when a builder should be required by law to tell buyers whether fibre will be available when the home is handed over. If not, then the buyer can decide to buy elsewhere where the builder can guarantee it. This might encourage builders to put some of their outrageously high profits from selling rabbit hutches into actually providing the hutches with decent broadband when they build them.

Edited by Desmond (Fri 24-Jan-14 23:01:50)

if the developer has not discussed with Openreach around provision of FTTP at a newbuild stage and does nothing and the developement is greater than 60 or so premises you then get a new copper cabinet (to enable voice to provider under USO universal service obligation) that development wont have been picked up by the commercial programme as too small (and commercial programme complete for decisioning) and likley not to had a post code so will have been missed by the LA as part of any OMR always assuminng the area in question is in a area is a BDUK bid Area

Prviate funding (either by community or Developer is quickest and shortest option)

All of which may be true, but a developer can clearly tell a buyer they can get fibre when they can't and not be held to account for it when said buyer spends vast sums of money on a new property on the back of that assurance.

Edited by Desmond (Fri 24-Jan-14 23:05:17)

The developers ... have the choice of what to ask for if they want to keep selling houses.

There's been debate about the relationship between developers and Openreach: Can developers demand fibre connectivity, or is it a case of getting what they are given?

Here's a press release from Openreach that shows that developers can certainly ask. If they're big enough, they get what they ask for. The lesson there is: If you're a smaller developer, and you don't get the same answer, you should publish the same kind of press release.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

In my opinion developers should be contacting Openreach and asking them to provide the fibre duct and boxes to the developer to provide fibre to ALL new builld sites over 50 dwellings and some smaller. ( Instead of the copper duct and boxes)

Openreach does have a developer's guide, which tells developers what to include... providing they choose to include BT amongst their service providers. It seems that Openreach make the plan for cabling the site, but then pay the developer for carrying out the work.

The latest guide, from April 2013, includes instruction for fibre ducting as a mandatory part of the development work (though choosing BT is optional). But there is nothing to make it mandatory for BT to then put fibre in it!

Version history:

• Version 7, April 2013.
  Includes fibre in full detail for houses and MDU, but changed emphasis. Requires BFT in addition to the draw rope for copper.
  
• Version 6, April 2012.
  Includes fibre in full detail for houses and MDU. Requires BFT in addition to the draw rope for copper.
  
• Version 4, 2009. Almost no mention of fibre, and certainly no detail at all.
  

In contrast, the requirements for providing a phone line to the site office before development starts is rather differenent. considerably more ad-hoc using a "site distribution point" cabinet.

Openreach appear quite open to developers providing fibre on big sites especially where fibre infrastructure has already been rolled out.

According to a 2012 Working group for developers, held by Openreach, they were intending to roll out "fibre only" for new site development from September 2012

Blame the developer and not BT.

The developer should be telling BT about the estate and installing provision for fibre ducts to the properties along with dedicated locations for cabinets. Laying extra ducts at build would probably cost less than £50 house.

One instance near here where the developer did not involve BT, the roads are private and they would not allow a cabinet on the estate so BT have connected to outlying cabinets which only support ADSL products. A quick discussion could have resulted in either an FTTC cabinet or provision for a future FTTP install.

If you can't get the developer engaged to sort this out, I'd suggest a sign outside your house informing all potential purchasers (of the two new stages) that there is no fibre connectivity, and no plans to provide it.

Set up a website also, and ensure that anyone searching for details of the development also find your site.

Or at least inform the developer that that is what you'll do if they don't fix it within a short period.

i dont know why this surprises you. its seems a common thing to do.

where i am the reverse happened, telewest was asked by the developer to install cable as the went and telewest said no, well do it after. housing association that owns entire development said no, you wont. you do it now because we dont want wire running up and down the face of out buildings.

untill its law i dont see what will change, it should be like electricity. you build something you have install good connectivity rather than retrofitting some janky bit of copper afterwards.

That sounds like an excellent way for the OP to put himself a long way into negative equity and unable to sell and move somewhere with FTTx.

In reply to a post by mark2410:

untill its law i dont see what will change,

Market forces will makes developers react much faster than trying to change the law.

Make it look profitable to them, they'll shift. Get them staring a loss of business, they'll reconsider.

Seems like the slow internet speed continues to plague this area and estate. Can't the developers do anything for us? I am getting sick and tired of buffering when watching the shortest of video clips.

That might be the case if we weren't in the middle of a huge housing crisis. It's a seller's market at the moment. This should have been addressed long ago and it could have been done by changes to planning regulations and building regulations for major developments.

As it is, the OP did go through a process of due diligence, but without a contractual obligation on the part of the developers, or a broadband USO, he/she is let down by the system.

This sort of stuff can be done. A major development without proper provision for water, electricity and sewage would simply not be allowed. Politicians have absolutely not excuse on this one. In this case I think it's actually quicker to do it by regulation than by market forces which are, I believe, simply going to fail given the housing crisis.

too2slow which development is this please and I will have look for you

The developers should really get OR on board at the planning stage.

I'm moving to a new build towards the end of the year all the properties in the development are already showing in the BT wholesale checker even though they are still being built so the developer have obviously had OR involved from an early stage.

The only problem is the fibre speeds aren't too good with the properties just outside the development showing around 18/5 on the checker but I have been assured speeds will be faster on the development which I hope is true because the house I'm buying is at the far end, some 500m from the entrance.

Do you mean FTTC ? If so at 500M on new cable you should get the full whack or very close to it. Hope your move goes well.

there are 2 scenario A the developer funded a cab with Openreach and its a large development or more likely the developer only asked for voice services and not fibre and the nearest cab was enabled as par of the commercial / BDUK programme and is likely to be some distance away -- confirmation of your development will provide once one of the 2 scenarios is at play

It's annoying and you'd think there'd be some regulation to ensure that fibre ducts are laid at build-time.

If it helps I moved into a new development in a quiet country parish. The average age of people in the existing houses were probably 65+ and there were few of them so it didn't deem likely of any upgrade. (I'd moved from a consistent 80/20 to a .5Mb ADSL line)
I contacted Openreach also and they said there was no chance of FTTC to be done due to commercial reasons ... after about 8 months the vans started appearing and I soon had FTTC again.

Don't write it off as never happening. A friend was in a similar boat to you and started a campaign roping in other people on the development for a petition to present to the council/BT which seemed to do the trick. Get flyering!

In reply to a post by djawol:

It's annoying and you'd think there'd be some regulation to ensure that fibre ducts are laid at build-time.

Builders and developers don't seem to care too much. I am helping a friend out with specifying an install and suddenly the developer has seen the light - he wants to future proof the installations in an apartment development. He has realised the benefits of ensuring the buyers can have ADSL or FTTC which is available or when it arrives a fibre based solution by installing appropriate ducts into the building and from a secure comms areas to the apartments along with Cat6 meaning the ONTs can be in the comms area and a Gbit capable feed to the individual apartments.

It's another 500m on top of the existing 700m to the cab, so a total line length will be around 1.2km to the existing cab unless they add a secondary cab and fibre cab outside the development.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

That might be the case if we weren't in the middle of a huge housing crisis.

Can I point out that you are responding to a 2 year old post?

Little seems to have changed, though.

Hi Fastman2, I'm in Cavanna Home 504K.
I think it has something to do with the exchange. I heard some of the early movers did not have landline for a whole year! I imagine it will only get worse as more houses are being erected.

most of that be due to no onside DP point (if they know how many phone lines they are going to need over 5 years they should get Openreach/BT to fit a central DP and FTTC cab (or even better FTTP) to accommodate the new whole new estate (ideally cabled up for Virgin as well so gives Openreach/BT an incentive to put a FTTC or fiber in the area)

but seems FTTP installs take donkeys longer than Copper and VDSL install (more so when the on site developer screws up the house by like using Plot instead of house number)

a lot of them don't seem to think about the broadband unless someone gives a hint to even Check what the local internet is going to be like on BT (some of these new estates have 512kbs or slower broadband when its working as they are on 3km lines or longer and connected of multiple cabs) i wonder if rightmove checker also indicates broadband speeds yet

Edited by leexgx (Fri 26-Feb-16 01:40:44)

What can I do as a consumer to try to change things? Who do I hassle politely?

Who do I hassle politely?

The developer but probably far too late for that now.

In reply to a post by MCM:

The developer but probably far too late for that now.

Some people who discover, too late, that their estate has no fit broadband service, try to influence the developer via people for whom it isn't too late: prospective buyers of the remaining properties.

If they can publicise the failing enough, those prospective buyers will start to turn their backs.

Initially, such a strategy might alienate the developer from direct negotiation. If their sales start to be hurt, they might relent, and start to work with BT more actively.

It is probably only a strategy to fall into if the developer is resolutely uninterested.

is the developer still on site !!!!!

if you can confirm the developer is still on site and they are still bulding houses then there might be some leverage

Oops - but somebody else brought it to the top by responding to the OP.

However, you are quite right that nothing seems to have changed and that is disgraceful as I think that was ample time to get planning/building regulation changes in place.

Csimon not sure who assured you that as my expectation is that if that development is serviced by a cab already in existence then it will wont be close to the development ans speeds at at entrance might be ok but will get worse as you get further in - or there a new cab at entrance to development and speeds wit excellant at beginning of development and slowly decreasing as you get further in

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

However, you are quite right that nothing seems to have changed and that is disgraceful as I think that was ample time to get planning/building regulation changes in place.

We bought a new build in 96, back before broadband was important. I know from that experience how important it is to have developers tied down with written contracts and financial penalties before they will respond in a timely manner.

Our solicitor thought it good to withold £500 until the road was adopted. Nowadays I'd be looking for a statement on broadband capability in the contract, and withhold a similar sum until it could be installed. In fact, it might be important enough that I'd get the contract to state that completion couldn't happen until broadband could be ordered.

Developers really need to have their heads focussed for them.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

However, you are quite right that nothing seems to have changed and that is disgraceful as I think that was ample time to get planning/building regulation changes in place.

We bought a new build in 96, back before broadband was important. I know from that experience how important it is to have developers tied down with written contracts and financial penalties before they will respond in a timely manner.

Our solicitor thought it good to withold £500 until the road was adopted. Nowadays I'd be looking for a statement on broadband capability in the contract, and withhold a similar sum until it could be installed. In fact, it might be important enough that I'd get the contract to state that completion couldn't happen until broadband could be ordered.

Developers really need to have their heads focussed for them.

These days, they just don't get the roads adopted by the council, and charge the *freehold* homeowners an "estate charge" that starts off only a couple of hundred a year but after they leave site becomes a nice little money spinner as they double it (or more) every year, and you can't appeal or otherwise get out of it ever.

Housebuilders are scum.

Just have to wait and see what happens when Openreach can get onto site but the development is aimed a young families and suitable for home working so I'm not sure c. 1 Mbps ADSL2+ would really fit in with the latter description.

The developer does have a very good reputation in the area and get Openreach involved at the planning stage rather than as an afterthought.

Details of this and any escalator should all be detained in the searches and information gathered by your solicitor.

One gets the sense that lots of people just pay the money and don't actually read any of the material sent out back and forth when buying a home.

If a developer is making 'home working' a key part of their advertising and sales spiel then a good lawyer might be able to make a case of that.

It's a seller's market at the moment, and many people don't have much choice. That's one of the reasons we have regulations to prevent unfair exploitation of people in these sort of situations. You do have to wonder if an "estate charge" is actually for proving services (like grass cutting) or is just a way of getting a continual income stream for the developer. In general, most environmental services on "adopted" roads are paid for via the council tax system. It seems odd to charge freeholders for such things.

That is true but as I said, once Openreach can get on site to start installing the infrastructure on the development I'll hopefully have a better idea of what is being done.

On an aside, the Openreach when and where website has the development down as "exploring options" for fibre so it's looking hopeful bearing in mind there is still 6+ months before anyone can move in.

Estate charges are ostensibly constrained to the costs of providing grass cutting, and whatever else is included.

Of course, the developer charges a "management fee", and that forms part of the costs. There is also nothing saying they have to be careful with costs, so the director of the management company can hire his brother to cut the grass and pay him £1000/hour if he likes. That is then a cost that is passed on to the freeholders.

There is no way for a freeholder to challenge the charge, leaseholders at least can take it to a tribunal.

We recently walked away from a new build for this reason. We have friends who have bought from the same developer and had the charge triple in 5 years.

There is even a green telephone cabinet right outside the entrance to the estate. Does that mean anything at all in terms of broadband speed?

Nothing, until it's paired with a fibre twin.

that means the developer only ask for telephony
that box needs to be enabled - is the developer still on ste

Try that on any popular development and you'll find the house back on the market for a less 'troublesome' buyer.

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

that means the developer only ask for telephony
that box needs to be enabled - is the developer still on ste

Yea, the developer is still on site. There seems like a lot more houses are being built.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Mar-16 17:06:00)

In reply to a post by too2slow:

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

that means the developer only ask for telephony
that box needs to be enabled - is the developer still on ste

Yea, the developer is still on site. There seems like a lot more houses are being built.

Try making a nuisance of yourself in the sales office when they have prospective buyers in. Might sort something out to get you to stop putting people off buying...

In reply to a post by libf:

Try making a nuisance of yourself in the sales office when they have prospective buyers in. Might sort something out to get you to stop putting people off buying...

Well the OP may not have caused a nuisance in the sales office, but the digital nuisance in this forum was enough to put me off. Today, 17 April 2016, I intended to sign the paperwork for the purchase of plot 246, Phase 2 Area B of the Cavanna Homes 504K Plymouth Airport development, a 4-bed semi (Condor I) for £265,000, but gave up on learning about the poor state of affairs regarding broadband. Like a proper water and electricity service, decent broadband is absolutely essential - deal breaker.

is a copper only site there us will not be any FTTC on -- thank your for confirming the Developer is still on site -- be interesting to see if the developer wants to do anything about it

interesting this one !!!!

Well the OP may not have caused a nuisance in the sales office, but the digital nuisance in this forum was enough to put me off. Today, 17 April 2016, I intended to sign the paperwork for the purchase of plot 246, Phase 2 Area B of the Cavanna Homes 504K Plymouth Airport development, a 4-bed semi (Condor I) for £265,000, but gave up on learning about the poor state of affairs regarding broadband. Like a proper water and electricity service, decent broadband is absolutely essential - deal breaker.

Just an update on my situation. My new address has just appeared on the BT Wholesale checker and it's on the same cabinet as the Phase I properties but no fibre estimates yet.

Checking the address of one of the P1 properties which hopefully has approximately the same line length, I could be looking at between 57 and 42 Mbps. I'm assuming Openreach have pulled new copper from the PCP because these speed are about 2-3 times higher than the 1970's properties just outside the development are getting.

The only problem is the cabinet has a waiting list for fibre but there's still 5 months or so before I move in.