2 x FTTC (VDSL) connections in one home???

I know it's probably been asked before, but does anyone know if it's possible to have two FTTC (VDSL) connections (obviously using two phone lines) coming into the same house over the same multi-core 'phone cable?

I'd basically like to keep my own domestic Infinity product but now have a need for a FTTC/VDSL connection for my business which must have a static IP (not available from BT's domestic retail product).
So I thought I'd investigate having a second connection (too far from the exchange to get decent ADSL2+ speeds) for work.

Has anyone known of this?
Do the 'phone/DSL companies even provide it?
What are the dangers of crosstalk with 2 x VDSL connections sharing the same multi-core (my current Infinity connects a couple of Mbps shy of maximum sync and I get around 66Mbps download speed - upload is at full speed)?

I have 2 FTTC services (80/20)

Was the 1st live on the cab over 16 months ago. Sync started off around 50Mbps on line 1 and 48Mbps on line 2. They have dropped as expected over time and now sit at 48Mbps on (1) and 44Mbps on the other. Upload has been around 11Mbps on both most of the time.

Well at least I know it's possible, thanks.

Were both your lines enabled at the same time, or was one done ahead of the other?
i.e. Do you know what one line was capable of, before the 2nd was switched on, and did it drop due to cross-talk?

I guess if your upload is 11Mbps on a 20Mbps upload service you're a fair distance from the cab (I get full upload speed and the most logical cable route is probably around 160 to 200 metres).

Also. I expect it's the same phone cable, but don't know.

Looks like it might be academic anyway...
If I go to any provider's website, and do a search by just postcode (as I'll need a new line, rather than migrating my existing one), all checkers show something like "fibre is not available in your area yet" or "we cannot provide accurate information based on your postcode", and they all just offer 1-2Mbps ADSL.

Using the BT wholesale checker shows the cabinet is "temporarily unavailable" (i.e. it's full) - that's what BT get for using miles more cable, than necessary, to get from the exchange - everybody is upgrading from ADSL (2-3Mbps AT BEST) to fibre.

Even though the cab went live in August 2011, it's now showing an availability date of Feb 26th 2014 for FTTC range A (clean) and FTTC range B (impacted) - whatever that means (are there new 'decent' and 'rubbish' products available from BT???).

Theoretically, providers don't really care how many telephone lines/fttc connections you have in your building/home. The BT Openreach engineer thought it was a bit wierd when he installed the second line but other than that.
I was also the first adopter on my cabinet, however I believe it's uptake on neighbours lines which has had more of an effect on my speeds (similar drop to Adam3k) but as I'm probably closer to the cabinet i'm getting 70Mbps download approx with 19Mbps upload on both lines.

Edited by deleted (Mon 03-Feb-14 21:49:53)

Postcode checkers are the least reliable. At least use the address .

From posts around the time that Clean/Impacted stuff was introduced it seems to be along the lines of Clean = zero cross-talk and Impacted = worst expected cross-talk.

Or Impacted could be to do with non-optimisation of home wiring now the self-install option is in place.

In reply to a post by adebov:

(I get full upload speed and the most logical cable route is probably around 160 to 200 metres).

That sounds quite short. I'm at the so-called BT average of 450m and get around 50/10 sync, but my parents are at 510m and get the full 80/20 (theoretical on theirs is around 99/30) - so its down to quality of cable, crosstalk etc etc. too.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

At least use the address .

I did that and that's how I managed to find out the cabinet is full.
Postcode checkers simply say "fibre is not available in your area" (when I know it is, as I've had it for 2.5 years).
So, yes, you're right - the address checker is more reliable and is the only one to give the 'true' answer (that the cabinet is full and capacity is being added by 26th Feb).

I get the following result...

FTTC Range A (Clean) 80 69.8 20 20 -- 26-Feb-14
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 79.9 53.8 20 19 -- 26-Feb-14

So, even though the cabinet is full (so; a fair bit of cross-talk, I'd imagine - especially as most lines will come this way) I'm still syncing within the 'Clean' range (with average throughput between 62-66Mbps).
Last time I checked my sync (and the throughput hasn't dropped since) it was around 76Mbps.
At least I know what to expect when I add a second line (will probably go for a 40/10 line on that one, to reduce the cross-talk effect on MY home 80/20 line - no need to go higher than 40/10 as everybody else, in the company, has ADSL2+ connections and the fastest of those is less than around 4Mbps).

Roll on Feb 26th - will probably go for a Zen 40/10 connection (if they do new line installs) as I need a static IP (a dynamic DNS won't do in my case, as we'll all need remote access into several sites and this will be filtered by IP).

To add more weight to this thread. I currently have two circuits running across the same phone cable in my house.

First circuit (using two pairs) is a residential BT Infinity 80/20
Second circuit is a GEA-FTTC Openreach/TTB 10/10.

Both work flawlessly.

Thanks

Blue

Is that second one a typo for 40/10? (You can edit up to 12 hours from posting ).

Edit - "A circuit" only uses one pair by the way.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 03-Feb-14 23:01:49)

Both at the same time, originally i had the 40/10 service as the 80/20 was not an option. Both said 40/10 so i can�t answer if i saw a drop on the second line due to cross talk

As for distance, yeah about 500 meters, maybe a tad more

The second one is probably a 10/10 fibre Ethernet circuit.

The poster said GEA. There is no such GEA product; I don't think TalkTalk offer a throttled to 10/10 version of the GEA 40/10; and I think it unlikely he is on a symmetric 10Mbps leased line as opposed to GEA.

Hi Ade, long time no posts on here !

Just to add my opinion, it's perfectly do-able. If you think about it, the signal has already travelled a fair way next to adjacent pairs, so bringing it down a cable with a few less spares will make no difference.

Or Impacted could be to do with non-optimisation of home wiring now the self-install option is in place.

Activating the second line here took about 2Mb off the first one's maximum data rate, and the second line came in somewhat slower.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The poster said GEA. There is no such GEA product;

Actually, there do seem to be GEA FTTC leased lines, and GEA FTTP leased lines, that appear to be known as "GEA Ethernet" (Yes, I realise that includes 'ethernet' twice) by some sellers, or as "FTTC Ethernet" by others.

They are, effectively, treated as a leased line within the core network but utilise the standard FTTC or FTTP products in the access network, but with the higher support levels for business.

They give guaranteed bi-directional speeds that match the upstream speeds we're used to - so 2Mbps, 10Mbps, 20Mbps, and (for GEA FTTP) 30Mbps. One description is found here, and another found here.

According to this summary, TTB have their own equivalent product that uses their own backhaul/core network.

From this seller, it looks like a cost of £130pm for 2Mbps and £200pm for 10-20Mbps.

What isn't clear is if that gives you an internet access connection, or is a point-to-point leased line, or is only half a point-to-point leased line. I think the former.

I don't think TalkTalk offer a throttled to 10/10 version of the GEA 40/10; and I think it unlikely he is on a symmetric 10Mbps leased line as opposed to GEA.

If it turns out to be, as I think, a 10/10-business service, it would be interesting to see how the downstream behaves - does it sync at 10, or does it sync higher? If higher, does it allow for higher burst speeds?

So the poster could be on that service, with the 10/10 Ethernet and failover standard FTTC as described.

Interesting.

I have to say I'm not quite with the descriptions of the Ethernet service, on first reading at this time of the day - before breakfast .

worked on one such setup. One line ran very poorly but it wasn't cross talk as the other was >60M downstream and switching modems off didn't show anything on speed tests.

Plenty of common failure points of course, so it's not a resilience option. If that was of interest you want one line on a LLU provider to give a bit of diversity beyond the exchange.

As providers have no control of the sync, it would sync at the GEA product speed of up to 40 or up to 80 on FTTC.

The lower 10 Mbps of Ethernet style services will be managed in the backhaul with rate limiting, so there may be a burst ability.

Millions have no idea of the cost per Mbps even if just shuffling traffic around between two data centres with massive bundles of fibre.

Hi Phil,

It's not for resilience, it is because I need a static IP for a VPN server and storage/hosting solution for work (dynamic DNS will not do as they tend to present, to the other end, the current IP rather than the name - and at least one site, we'll be connecting into, filters incoming connections by their IP).
I don't want to simply migrate my home connection over to one with a static IP as I'd like to keep all the voice and various other bolt-on "freebies".
It's also handy to keep work and home stuff completely separate.

It wouldn't be an issue if the other guys didn't live out in the middle of nowhere (I'm the one with the fastest possible connection, so I've drawn the short 'hosting' straw).

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Hi Ade, long time no posts on here !

Hi there James.
Yeah; I've been a bit quiet recently (a sign of me, finally, having a decent connection).
Infinity 2 is going great. I was probably one of the first on the cab (before BT rolled out 80Mbps) and got the full 40Mbps.
I upgraded to 80Mbps as soon as it was available here (May 2012) and I got the full 80Mbps (to my surprise - I thought I was a little too far from the cabinet), but with almost no head-room (attainable rate was indicated around 0.5Mbps above max sync).
In the first few months (leading up to Christmas 2012) I got full speed and hardly ever dropped sync.
Then the usual tacky display of Christmas lights played havoc (sync dropped, almost overnight, to around 50Mbps and stayed there until mid-January 2013). Eventually DLM (or whatever it's called on FTTC) managed to recover almost all of the lost speed, but I never quite managed full sync again (just about 2Mbps shy - interleaving, or some other punishment for my neighbours having a tacky American style Xmas display???).
Throughout 2013, as more & more neighbours switched to FTTC (eventually maxing out the cab, until it ran out of capacity) my sync gradually dropped.
Fortunately it's still high enough to consistently get speedtest results around 62Mbps and Usenet download speeds (i.e. multi-threaded downloads) around 66Mbps.
It's still way fast enough for me (I'm not ready to pay £1,000+ to have 330Mbps installed and then £70/month - much better to spend the money on an extra two FTTC 80/20 connections - will cost about the same, will have around 60% of the 330/30 download speed, but would have twice the upload speed - I still don't know why 330/30 is so expensive to install, when it's better to spend the money on getting higher uploads by way of a couple of 80/20 connections!!!).

Time to move to Deddington I reckon, not so far for you, and the whole damn place is FTTP only !

Would he end up supplying you with fig biscuits?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Time to move to Deddington I reckon, not so far for you, and the whole damn place is FTTP only !

Yeah; it's about 11 miles from here.
I don't think they're quite ready, but there has been a fair bit of activity recently.
They're doing voice as well (I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong) so that means the end of copper cables.
I wonder if the whole place will be slaved from Banbury (just like Brackley's FTTC was around 18 months to 2 years ago), although the main fibres running from Oxford to Banbury go right past the exchange (some probably loop through it), so I guess they could do either.

Of course; with Deddington being a village (although it was larger than Banbury, if you go back a few hundred years) it's got that cutesy edge of the Cotswolds thing going on, and house prices to match (Banbury's expensive, Deddington even more so).
Probably just cheaper to stump up the cash and pay OR to run a fibre from whichever stupid place they decided to put the nearest aggregation point (it would be handy to know where this is - could be just round the corner, could be miles away)

I had a think about my earlier post.

It should be noted that take up here has been very high and very fast. At least 192 active connections in the cabinet since it was enabled 2 months ago, and 96 of those sold in the first 9 days.

My second connection would've been to card 3 and I didn't check the maximum rate on the first line very often, I'm not adslmax hence don't obsess over such things so long as it works, so it's quite possible it had a lower impact but some more subscribers had been added in the interim.

It has a maximum data rate that's lower than the first line by 5Mb though. I'm not 100% sure of the reason behind this but put it down to that the first line had extremely good care taken of it as part of trying to fault fix so may have been on an exceptionally good d-side.

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Feb-14 23:48:45)

Just noticed you all discussing this.

This is probably common knowledge now, but to confirm its a 10/10 FTTC GEA from BT Wholesale. I have it cause it was a trial for a new product as we offer this circuit for the ISP I work for.

TTB are now our prefered supplier for FTTC business ethernet grade connections.

Blue