Using test socket. Will OR engineer mind?

Yet another post chronicling my fibre install...

Currently, on my ADSL connection, I'm using the test socket behind the master socket's front plate.

This is because the connection is about 30% faster than using the standard socket, thanks to my house-builder's shocking wiring skills (yes, I've removed bell wire etc. etc.).

On Tuesday I have an appointment with an Openreach engineer for a fibre install. Will (s)he look at the sprawling master socket and say "Sorry, I'm out!" or should it be ok?

Many thanks

wont be a problem,but will probably ask why

Cool.

Will an FTTC connection be affected by the speed drop I get when not using the test socket?

Because I guess the engineer won't leave it wired up to the test socket as it is now.

Will an FTTC connection be affected by the speed drop I get when not using the test socket?

probably. you can just leave the extension plate off and leave the FTTC modem conneted to the new FTTC plate and plug any phone directly into that

Thanks for the info.

I found this on BT's site [however BT will not be my provider]:

We'll fit a special faceplate to the front of your master phone socket when we install BT Infinity. It helps you get the fastest speeds by separating the broadband signal from any interference caused by your home's telephone extension wiring and devices connected to it.

So hopefully this means it will be fast even without going through the test socket!

If your internal extensions are causing issues and loss of speed, then when the engineer comes to do the install for FTTC it maybe best if those extensions where disconnected from the lower half of the master socket , assuming that you saw a lower speed even when there was nothing connected to the extensions, if there was things like sky boxes connected where they filtered as well as your phone in the master socket ? if not that could of been the reason for the slower speed, the filtered faceplace that they will fit will filter all extensions so no need for dangly filters

Currently my whole home wiring consists of:

Test socket -> ADSL filter -> DSL for modem
------------------------------> Splitter -> Landline phone
------------------------------------------> Extension for a sky box

(Hopefully that makes sense. Ignore the lines, had to use them as spaces are deleted when posting)

And this gets the faster speed.

The only difference when I use the main socket (and get the slower speed) is that a second sky box will then be connected via another telephone socket in the lounge.

Will do some experimenting tomorrow to see if the second sky box is responsible for the slowdown.

Sky boxes can need double filtering. It was supposed to be fixed years ago, but occasionally we still see one here.

I see!

The connections for the sky box are hidden behind a massively heavy cabinet that is attached to the wall. In other words, can't really reach the cable.

I don't need any of the sky telephone services, so can I just unplug the telephone cable from the box?

Or will cable pick up interference anyway?

Might have to mentally prepare myself overnight for moving this cabinet

The extension can be disconnected from the lower (removable faceplate) on the master socket, without causing issues, then you won't need to use the test socket

Ah! I understand now...

You mean remove the internal wires from the lower half of the plate but still plug the plate in.

Will give it a go! Though haven't got a crimping tool to put them back again if something goes wrong...

It shouldn't be a crimping tool. It's a Krone/IDC tool, under a couple of quid online or from shops lke Maplin. Even B & Q.

Just be careful you gently ease the wires off the faceplate in the first place. Don't cut them else you'll end up in a right mess.

But!

How many working extensions have you got? They may be daisy-chained and you could lose all of them .

There are probably about 6 or 7 extentions around the house - it doesn't matter if they don't work: we literally never use the landline. Only issue could be with sky boxes but if they ever need reconnecting (only scenario I can think of is if a PIN needs resetting or something) I'll get one of those tools from Maplin

I know nothing about using Sky boxes, but could it be taken to the master socket to do that?

Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. There's loads of cables and there's no TV by the master socket.

Now embarking on my trial-and-error interference-tracking...

After some poking around, the Sky box is definitely the source of the interference. I removed the cable (and turned off the box to be sure) and the speed reduction was about 80% less than it was before. So still a slight reduction but not bad!

Thanks for the advice, guys. This is a great forum full of knowledgable and friendly people!

Now, let's hope an Openreach guy turns up on Tuesday...

At the socket for the Sky box, try Sky box >> dangly filter >> phone socket of 2nd dangly >> phone socket. That is often sufficient to sort the problem.

Edit - I just had another look at your diagram from earlier. A second dangly into the splitter, with the Sky box into that comes to the same thing .

Second edit - Important. That extension for the Sky box almost certainly contains a bell wire that is not getting filtered!!! See the last two paragraphs of this page. The FTTC VDSL2 plate I believe filters that.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 09-Feb-14 13:48:49)

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

There are probably about 6 or 7 extentions around the house - it doesn't matter if they don't work: we literally never use the landline. Only issue could be with sky boxes but if they ever need reconnecting (only scenario I can think of is if a PIN needs resetting or something) I'll get one of those tools from Maplin

If you have Sky multiroom - ie extra Sky boxes receiving all the channels from your main subscription at a reduced subscription of £10.25/additional box, then, unless all boxes are connected to the internet, all boxes have to be connected to the same phoneline. Otherwise you will be charged the full Sky subscription for every box.

I think the easiest thing will be just be to disconnect all the phone line extensions. Only use our phone line for internet and it's just not worth the hassle.

At the moment, master socket has wires only in pins 2 and 5 of the lower removable face-plate. So can I just disconnect these to disconnect all the extensions? Or will that stop the master socket working as well?

Thanks for the advice, but we don't have Sky Multiroom

That means the extensions are daisy-chained so all will stop working.

The external socket of the NTE5A will work for both phone and broadband, given a dangly filter.

Label the detached wires in some way so you know which is T2 and which T5 for if they ever get reconnected. It matters. Maybe a small sticky label in the inside of the faceplate with it written on?

As a point of interest, post here what colour(s) each terminal has connected. Not all builders electricians get that right, so we may as well check it here and now.

Here's a pic of the socket:

http://f.cl.ly/items/1X1u0O3g1y33020V050v/image.jpeg

So the wire for pin 2 is blue and the wire for pin 5 is white with green stripes every inch or so.

A few years back I got a retired BT engineer to improve my line quality for me. I remember him saying that the wire colours were all wrong and that electrical cables had been used rather than telephone cables, causing increased line noise. He also moved the master socket, which was in the hallway (totally stupid), and is now in the study, and at the same time replaced it with this Openreach one - previously the socket was one single unbranded plate and indistinguishable from the others.

At the time his work resulted in my line moving from 800kbps to 1990kbps. So of course I compensated him generously

And as an FYI, my house was completed late 2007 by David Wilson, whose contractors Electract installed the phone cables (yup, electricians...), and also botched the electrics in the house. Basically, Electract are useless.

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Feb-14 15:50:19)

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

Here's a pic of the socket:

http://f.cl.ly/items/1X1u0O3g1y33020V050v/image.jpeg

So the wire for pin 2 is blue and the wire for pin 5 is white with green stripes every inch or so.

The extensions should really be using a pair of wires not one wire two different pairs, so should be using the white with blue stripes not green stripes. Are all the extensions wired this way?

LOL
Shall we say, I'm glad an BT guy has done what he can without ripping it all out . Saves me or anyone else here having to guess what's best to do. I expect he went round the sockets as well.

Remember it's not phone cable. Probably not twisted pair of any description.

The bit that has me foxed is that T5 and T3 (detached) both seem to have white/green.

It amazes me how telephone wiring just seems to be luck of the draw!

But it's all BT/Openreach's fault at the end of the day for leaving the extensions to the house builders.

The guy who improved them was great. I don't really know what he did, but it more than doubled the speed. He went round all the extensions. Am just confused as to how he moved the master socket and can envision some sort of disaster unfolding on Tuesday if the OR engineer susses it's been moved.

He probably won't, and if he does all you say is a BT engineer did it .

Very good... And true - just wasn't working for BT at the time hahaha

Sorry to ask so many questions, but how does moving a master socket work? What confuses me is that in my mind a master socket connection goes:
Outside premises -> inside premises -> master socket

And that if it's been moved it will now be:
Outside premises -> inside premises -> "old" master socket -> internal wiring -> "new" master socket
Which surely will cause a slowdown/line noise?

I must be missing something.

As long as the wire the ex bt engineer used to extend the incoming cable from where the master socket was originally to where it is now is to spec, cw1308 twisted pair 2-3 pair , and the connections at either ends test fine then he will fit the filtered faceplate , (should do some tests using a jdsu or exfo device) I say should, because not all engineers carry the test equipment with them, OR seem to think they don't need test equipment

to make sure that the line is ok and your getting sync with the cab , before unboxing and connecting the BT openreach modem to the master socket and mains power point
and waiting for it to obtain a sync, or if a BTretail customer, they will connect the home hub up as well and i think they also demonstrate that they can browse the web on your pc

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 09-Feb-14 17:41:32)

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

I must be missing something.

Yes and no. You and he must have agreed to move the master for some reason, and without fresh wiring from where it was to where it is it won't be any different than if you had tried to use the extension socket in the study in the first place.

On FTTC/VDSL2 it could be a bit more significant.

Is there an extension socket in the hall now, or just a blanking plate with the connections jelly-crimped inside?

Depends on how it's been moved, often it possible to reroute the drop wire, so there are no other connections, same cable just comes into the house in a different place.

The other way is to extend the cable from where the old master was using jelly crimps.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Depends on how it's been moved, often it possible to reroute the drop wire, so there are no other connections, same cable just comes into the house in a different place.

Not if you don't have a pole; generally BT/OR won't want to dig up the drive/garden etc. Or in my case the incoming wire comes through the communal brickwork of the flats into the hallway by the front door, nowhere near to any mains power.

Hence why I said 'often', my line comes in from underground and comes up in my hallway, so mine is jelly crimped to the new cable which goes to the new master, as per my second suggestion

Lots of info here... Here's all I know:

The master socket was moved because it was in the hall - totally inconvenient place.

In the hall there was a plain-fronted socket that looked like all the others, with a blank plate next to it. This was the master socket.

The ex-BT guy moved it to the study and replaced the plain plate with an Openreach branded split-fronted one.

Now in the hall there is a plain looking phone socket, which in theory is now an extension of the master in the study, and the blank plate next to it is still there.

I will tell the OR engineer the master was moved by BT. I would assume he would then know if this would result in a speed drop.

I'm straining now, but I think there was also another reason for moving the master (this was over four years ago so I'm trying to remember), something to do with the fact that the master should have been in the study all along.

Right now, if the front plate of the new master is removed, the socket that was the old master doesn't work (as would be expected) - I guess this means the new master cannot be an extension of the old one, as I was fearing.

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Feb-14 18:01:54)

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Hence why I said 'often', my line comes in from underground and comes up in my hallway, so mine is jelly crimped to the new cable which goes to the new master, as per my second suggestion

LOL, likewise mine is jelly crimped and the new cable goes under my carpet and through the wall to the office

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

I will tell the OR engineer the master was moved by BT. I would assume he would then know if this would result in a speed drop.

No need to tell the engineer anything unless he asks. I moved my master socket to a more convenient location (naughty) by shortening the cable a bit; there was some evidence of where the cable used to go but no questions were asked.

Well my thinking was that if the engineer knew it was moved and saw low sync speeds he would perhaps move the master socket back to the hall.

I forget not everyone uses proper phone cable for wiring up extensions. Never touch that flat stuff myself.

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

It amazes me how telephone wiring just seems to be luck of the draw!

But it's all BT/Openreach's fault at the end of the day for leaving the extensions to the house builders.

Have to disagree with the second part. Openreach aren't to blame for not doing internal wiring. If you want to blame anybody, blame your developer for wanting to cut costs and knock up houses as fast as possible as cheap as possible.

Fair enough.

I wonder if there are actually standards for home wiring, e.g. that Openreach issues to developers? I bet they get ignored anyway...

Back to the original topic, hoping and praying the engineer turns up tomorrow! Could FINALLY have decent internet! A 1.5 meg connection is a punishment I don't think I'd wish on anybody

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

Fair enough.

I wonder if there are actually standards for home wiring, e.g. that Openreach issues to developers? I bet they get ignored anyway...

Back to the original topic, hoping and praying the engineer turns up tomorrow! Could FINALLY have decent internet! A 1.5 meg connection is a punishment I don't think I'd wish on anybody

More recently I've seen a lot of new builds using Cat5e cabling for phone extensions and linking the master socket to the drop wire, I think a lot of electricians carry it these days.

You wouldn't happen to know if this was Cat5e would you?

I ask because that's ethernet isn't it? And I'd love to be able to bodge an internal network cable via the phone sockets

Looks like phone cable ie not cat5.And on a spilt pr not good.

Edited by deleted (Mon 10-Feb-14 23:12:47)

Ah well...

Here's what I'm currently having to do to maintain a decent connection around the house! A lot of wireless extenders!

Amazingly only results in a 3-4ms latency increase!

Poor Wi-Fi distribution can't be blamed on your broadband connection. If I read that diagram correctly you have four Wi-Fi networks in your house, you probably at most need two descent Wi-Fi access points.

BT Developers' Guide Section 3.2 advises on extension wiring

Was referring to LAN connection. And there's 5 wireless routers all extending one network

Openreach guy has already turned up and is at the cabinet now! Exciting!

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

Was referring to LAN connection. And there's 5 wireless routers all extending one network

Openreach guy has already turned up and is at the cabinet now! Exciting!

Unless you're living in a mansion five AP is seriously OTT and indicates something isn't right, and depending how's its setup could well impact through put.

I have a large 5 bed detached house with a single wireless AP in the loft, which covers the whole house and garden.

Good luck with your install, hope it goes well.

Openreach engineer has come and gone! He was a contractor (Quinn) working for Openreach.

He said he would take about 10 mins at the cab, which turned into 45 mins. On his return he said "well that was an ordeal!" haha.

Anyway, my speed is now a very respectable 50 down/10 up.

The engineer said he could get 57/16 on his device and that he thinks the upload has been capped. Maybe it will adjust over time.

And, perhaps more impressively, my plethora of WAPs are managing to transport almost the full speed all the way upstairs, losing only about 0.5mbps on average!

Very happy!

Speedtest.net result

Not bad. But are you really speedtesting this on an iPhone?

I've done loads of tests. On a Mac via Ethernet straight into router got exactly the same.

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

I don't need any of the sky telephone services, so can I just unplug the telephone cable from the box?

If you are outside of your 12 month (or whatever) fixed term contract period(*) then "yes". If still within it then "maybe". Sky have never seemed all that thorough in policing it though - typically takes several months before they seem to notice and send a slightly snotty letter. They may also only do it if you have the second box from them.

(*)Seems to start whenever you sign up for anything including just a change of packages.

Edited by Andrue (Tue 11-Feb-14 12:22:18)

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by Brookzy:

There are probably about 6 or 7 extentions around the house - it doesn't matter if they don't work: we literally never use the landline. Only issue could be with sky boxes but if they ever need reconnecting (only scenario I can think of is if a PIN needs resetting or something) I'll get one of those tools from Maplin

Is that true forever or just after the initial install? I can see how it might last indefinitely.

If you have Sky multiroom - ie extra Sky boxes receiving all the channels from your main subscription at a reduced subscription of £10.25/additional box, then, unless all boxes are connected to the internet, all boxes have to be connected to the same phoneline. Otherwise you will be charged the full Sky subscription for every box.

Thanks for the info.

I've had Sky since the early 90s!

When will you be 100?

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

If you have Sky multiroom - ie extra Sky boxes receiving all the channels from your main subscription at a reduced subscription of £10.25/additional box, then, unless all boxes are connected to the internet, all boxes have to be connected to the same phoneline. Otherwise you will be charged the full Sky subscription for every box.

Just to clarify this a bit more. If you subscribed to multiroom before 18th Dec 2013 all the multiroom boxes must be connected to the same phone line all the time. For multiroom subscriptions take out from the 18th Dec all the multiroom boxes, where possible, must to be connected to the same internet connection.