Line capable of higher download speed.

Hello All! My first post so hope I doing it right!! I need ideally an Open Reach engineer to hopefully explain my predicament. I'm with TT on the upto 76MB fibre connection and have the HG533 router running ver. v1.15t. My speed was 70/19 then just dropped to a steady 45/19. I complained via their forum and an Open Reach eng. was sent who checked the cabinet etc. and got the speed back upto 70/19, Great!!. BUT the speed has once again gone back to 45/19. I complained once again and was sent a new router, this put the speed back to 70/19 for 5 days and now it's gone back to 40/19. I know the line is able to sync. at 70/19 because I saw the speed via the Open Reach engineers line analyser and he confirmed this. So my question is why does it keep on dropping and staying at 40/19, I'm also signed up with SAMKNOWS so have detailed line metrics.
Please can one of you clever Ladies or Gents throw some light on this. Thank you in advanced, hope all the above makes sense!!

First, I'll disabuse you of a couple of false notions:

1) Being signed up with Samknows might give you a lot of speed data, but you don't have a wealth of line metrics.

Speed tests give you, at best, a hint that a problem exists. They do nothing to tell you what the cause of the problem is.

Detailed line metrics would help there, but the regular Openreach modem hides those. The best that can be done with a BT-Wholesale-based line is to perform a BTW speedtest, and extract the IP profile, from which a sync speed can be calculated.

Unfortunately, even this piece of information is unavailable to TT lines.

2) FTTC speeds start high, and pretty much only ever get lower.

There are multiple reasons, even on a line that isn't faulty. Line faults can add an extra dimension to speed reduction, and intermittent line faults can both cause speed reductions *and* be incredibly tricky to fix.

Reason 1: DLM usually watches for 2 days before intervening. If your line has a high error rate, or even high packet loss, then DLM can intervene. Speeds can be reduced by anywhere between 10% and 30%.

A visiting engineer can order DLM to be reset, at which point it monitors for another 2 days before intervening again.

Reason 2: The major cause of noise and interference to an FTTC line is other FTTC subscribers. This causes speed reductions as take-up increases.

The problem is that the speed reductions seen are, effectively, random compared to the take-up, so the extra reduction can happen with just one or two other subscribers out of 100.

Speed reductions here can be even higher.

Reason 3: You might have a faulty line.

So... what does this mean?

When you see a speed of 70 on an engineer's JDSU, you can't expect to keep it. You need to see the error rate too, to have an idea of whether the speed will be kept.

These are the line metrics you need from your modem: Sync speed, CRC error rate/count, FEC error rate/count, and the FEC/interleaving settings ordered by DLM.

Is any of this available from the HG533 router? I don't know this router very well (or the TT service) ... is the router acting as a modem?

If DLM has intervened, it will have set a line profile for the modems to follow. I've seen Plusnet get hold of this information from Openreach... can TT get it too?

Is any of this available from the HG533 router? I don't know this router very well (or the TT service) ... is the router acting as a modem?

I have the HG533, its TalkTalk's equivalent of the BT HomeHub 3. It dosent have any FEC or error recording statistic panes unless on your connected through ADSL.

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Apr-14 15:52:47)

OK, that tends to make it hard to diagnose any TT problem without getting TT support involved, and an Openreach engineer out.

Those speed drops are large enough for Openreach to investigate, at least.

@2wayman:
What was the original estimate? That will probably dictate whether Openreach will continue looking.

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Apr-14 16:04:55)

Wow!! Thanks for such a detailed reply, I see what your saying and you are quite right in the JDSU measurements. I did'nt see or know about error rate unfortunately so no help there. I have a separate Open Reach modem and I don't think the router has any info about Sync speed, CRC error rate/count, FEC error rate/count or FEC/interleaving.
So as a layman what should I do, get the DLM reset. The bottom line is I may drop down to the upto 38MB package as I just getting that now a save a few quid every month!
Thanks again WWWombat

Is the 38mbps product "unlimited"?

Which modem is it, ECI or Huawei?If it's the Huawei HG612 they can be unlocked easily and then you can get to the proper stats.

Edited by R0NSKI (Fri 18-Apr-14 19:57:05)

Huawei if you both please .

Corrected. I can never remember and seeing as I was eating my dinner I couldn't be bothered to Google the correct spelling .

Yep Unlimited

Just looked at packet loss on zee SamKnowns dashboard and it's all over the place!
RTP packet loss is always 0.
Hope this is useful chaps.

For anybody to really help and advise you, you need to get and unlock a Huawei HG612, which you might already have, then you can get some real stats and an idea of whats going on.

I once had a 39Mbps connection reduced to about 1 Mbps of useful throughput, the DLM kicked in with error correction after about an hour, this came on suddenly and no idea what caused it. It's been running fine since, although with interleaving on.

Being FTTC, your Land Line is involved in the final stretch for the delivery of FTTC/VDSL Broadband to your house, so faults in that Land Line can impact on your Broadband.

As a "layman"; and as WWWombat mentioned in his Reason 3, you should first check your Land Line, whch you can readily do without involving anyone else.

This is generally referred to as the QLT or Quiet Line Test.

You need a corded phone, the older the better; and if you don't have one, then the corded base unit with built-in phone facilities from a "cordless phone" installation would suffice.

Disconnect all of your internal phone wiring at the NTE (Network Terminating Unit - usually a small white box) where the outside phone line comes into your house; and is terminated.

At the simplest level of testing-

Plug in your corded phone

Dial 17070 for the QLT

There will normally be an initial response giving your Phone Number, followed by a listing of Tests.

On most lines, this will be Option 2 (SKY Option 4)

Basically the Line will go quiet.

There may be a very low volume hum, which can generally be ignored.

Otherwise, if you hear anything untoward such as "Snap, Crackle and Pop", loud noises, tones similar to those sent out by tone-dial phones etc, these should be reported to your Voice PHONE PROVIDER as a Voice PHONE problem, avoiding mentioning Broadband in any shape or form; and whether or not you normally use the Land Line for phone calls.

Basically, the Phone Provider via OpenReach is only required to maintain a working quality for Voice Calls, hence not mentioning Broadband.

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If the line is "Quiet", then reconnect the NTE as normal; and move your corded phone to an extension.

Repeat the QLT.

If you now hear untoward noises, they are originating within your home and your (extension) wiring; and it is your responsibility to clear them.

This generally involves a process of elimination, progressively unplugging each item plugged in to any extensions etc.

However, the source could be something beyond the obvious, such as (plasma) TVs, micro-wave cookers etc; and may even be in adjoining premises (difficult!).

===========================

Lengthy to describe; but generally very EASY and FREE for you to do.

So generally should be the first check to carry out, if you suspect that there are communications problems.

Also worth repeating at intervals over the months and years, as Land Lines being metallic, are liable to deteriorate for various "natural" reasons; and also as the local distribution cabinet is opened up for all the various reasons, it is all too easy for other line connections to be inadvertently disturbed.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Disconnect all of your internal phone wiring at the NTE (Network Terminating Unit - usually a small white box) where the outside phone line comes into your house; and is terminated.

I think that needs a bit more detail .

With an NTE5 there should be no reason to disconnect any wires, quite the opposite. Careful removal of it (as there can be wires attached) to give access to the test socket should suffice. Checking all other extensions to make sure they are inoperative with it removed can be a good idea, in fact in this case I think a very good one.

Seeing as the OP is on FTTC, the VDSL2 filtered faceplate also needs removing. Many people think the socket it presents for the faceplate is the test socket, but it isn't.

Agreed.

Again I think this is an area where collectively, we should put together instructions for the QLT; and that Andrew should add them into the TEST Group.

Andrew already has a very good page on how to access the test socket when on FTTC.

Evening Robertos.

I have taken a look at that page.

BUT it does not mention directly "QLT", "QUIET LINE TEST", "NOISE" etc; and only one mention of "FAULT" or "FAULTS"-

" when engineers fix faults on ADSL2+ lines"

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This is the only part that mentions possible fault-finding; but not how to proceed with the QLT-

"By testing with the interstitial faceplate removed, you have removed any influence from a dirty contact or failing component in the faceplate, also the effects of any extension wiring, be that telephone or data wiring should have been removed."

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Thus I have my doubts as to whether a novice or a lay person or similar would have any real chance of finding it.

Eckiedoo, why do you constantly mention performing a quiet line test ???

It is by no means the be all and end of faulting techniques, are you aware that the minor HR fault you are hoping to find proof of using said test, does not show itself in the same way as with an ADSL/ADSL2+ line.

Agreed that it is not the "be all and end all" of tests.

But it is an extremely good beginning.

1) For those services using the phone lines, the physical and electrical conditions of those phone lines is a major consideration.

2) It is FREE; and well within the scope of most persons to carry out.

3) It does not require fancy or expensive equipment, not available in most homes.


If the phone line is not in good condition, then it is almost irrelevant as to the type of modem etc in use.

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You are the only person to mention "HR" in the thread, the OP certainly has not.

And an HR fault is a basic phone line condition, so why not try the QLT?

You are the only person to mention "HR" in the thread, the OP certainly has not.

And an HR fault is a basic phone line condition, so why not try the QLT?

Maybe because I'm the only one in this thread who actually fixes this stuff ?

As said, an HR on an FTTC service (which the OP is posting about) won't give the characteristic hiss and modem tones that an HR on an ADSL service will, thus negating it as test on FTTC.

Thanks!

You'll appreciate not knowing your experience etc, why I asked.

It all helps build up a wider appreciation of the different Fault Presentations.

I am sure that many others were wondering, why you could identify it as being HR, when the OP had already had visits from OR etc, which apparently did not reach that conclusion.

Raises another question which hopefully you can answer - would the "Open Reach engineers line analyser" be able to directly detect an HR?

Raises another question which hopefully you can answer - would the "Open Reach engineers line analyser" be able to directly detect an HR?

I personally think the PQ test doesn't always pick 'em up. However, putting it in manual sync mode, and watching the error counter is a good way to test IMHO.

Thanks, again.

We live and learn!