Why are my stats this bad

Hi, had fiber large installed on the 15th April and have just got hold of an unlocked HG612. My original modem is the ECI rev B. Should I be set on interleaved at this depth?

xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 28094 Kbps, Downstream rate = 96416 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80000 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 28094 kbps 96416 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 4.5 dBm 13.2 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 1.2 22.9 34.1 N/A 12.1 28.8 44.9
Signal Attenuation(dB): 1.2 22.8 34.0 N/A 12.1 28.8 44.9
SNR Margin(dB): 10.5 10.0 9.7 N/A 6.6 6.5 6.6
TX Power(dBm): -5.1 -21.3 4.0 N/A 9.6 7.4 7.5
#

Current stats are

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 28091 Kbps, Downstream rate = 96632 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80000 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.6 9.8
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.2 4.5
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 54 236
M: 1 1
T: 64 5
R: 14 16
S: 0.0219 0.3771
L: 25239 5410
D: 1435 1
I: 69 255
N: 69 255
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 129019251 286885
OHFErr: 602 2
RS: 3296679127 3471720
RSCorr: 37382999 43
RSUnCorr: 61068 0

Path 0
HEC: 18404 0
OCD: 236 0
LCD: 236 0
Total Cells: 3738623538 0
Data Cells: 417717097 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 122 6
SES: 1 0
UAS: 37 37
AS: 135975

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 1.04 6.12
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 160.02 203.67

Bitswap: 37053 72

Total time = 1 days 12 hours 48 min 58 sec
FEC: 58759766 72
CRC: 753 6
ES: 122 6
SES: 1 0
UAS: 37 37
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 58 sec
FEC: 29483 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 106277 0
CRC: 2 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 12 hours 48 min 58 sec
FEC: 3141665 11
CRC: 72 0
ES: 13 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 33294561 25
CRC: 523 2
ES: 59 2
SES: 1 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Since Link time = 1 days 13 hours 46 min 14 sec
FEC: 37382999 43
CRC: 602 2
ES: 73 2
SES: 1 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
#

Stats recorded 26 Apr 2014 10:12:46

DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0xb203 / v0xb203
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pv6C035m.d22g
DSL mode: VDSL2
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 1 day 13 hours 46 min 14 sec

Downstream Upstream
Attenuation (dB):
Connection speed (kbps): 80000 20000
SNR margin (dB): 6.6 9.8
Power (dBm): 13.2 4.5
Interleave depth: 1435 1
INP: 3.00 0

RSCorr/RS (%):
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0019 0.0000
ES/hour: 1.14

cheers


Andy

just out of curiosity, why the statement of "why are my line stats this bad"

Your line looks to handle 96M down 28M up
Your link looks to be set to 80M down, 20M up, which I assume is what you are paying for.

What is "bad"?

Because of his interleaving depth, which is:

D: 1435 1

Which is quite a high level, so something must be causing errors on the line or the modems been switched off a few too many times in quick succession.

I'd recommend leaving it alone for a few weeks and see if the DLM relents. It would also be worth harvesting stats to see if any one can spot whats going on.

Use either DLStats or HG612 Modems Stats to collect stats and graph them.

Cheers, yes its because of the errors, currently using dslstats and hg612 router stats programs. will post current images here soon



cheers

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Which is quite a high level, so something must be causing errors on the line or the modems been switched off a few too many times in quick succession.

My line is always depth of 1089 and has been like that for the 19 months its been installed. Strangely last week I had 2 days with no interleaving, but it came back.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Because of his interleaving depth, which is:

D: 1435 1

Which is quite a high level, so something must be causing errors on the line or the modems been switched off a few too many times in quick succession.

Knowing the depth of interleaving alone is insufficient; the interleaving works using a two-dimension array, and the depth only shows one dimension of the array - you need the other dimension to determine the "amount" of interleaving.

In this case it is the value

I 69 255

So interleaving uses an array 1435 x 69.

However, I find that even knowing this isn't particularly useful. By far the best measure of interleaving is to look at the parameters set by DLM directly, and particularly the "delay" parameter:

INP:	 3.00	 0.00
delay:	 8.00	 0.00

OP:

An INP of 3 symbols and a "delay" of 8ms is the standard "first attempt" setting for DLM to choose. That implies that the error stats are bad enough to warrant intervention (or were, at the time DLM intervened), but not so bad that DLM has had to perform any additional intervention.

I do find it useful to look at the parameters for FEC, as these vary quite considerably. In this case, the values are:

R:	 14	 16
N:	 69	 255

This means that the modem is using 14 bytes for FEC protection in every block of 69 bytes downstream; this amounts to 20% overhead. That figure is in line with "standard" overhead for intervention: I've seen values range from 15% to 30%.

Note that the modems have negotiated some upstream FEC overhead (16/255 = 6%), even though DLM has not required it (upstream INP was 0), but interleaving is turned off upstream. This seems to be a regular choice by the modems when there is plenty of spare capacity available upstream.

Back to downstream; when looking at the overall line stats, we see:

Max:	Upstream rate = 28094 Kbps, Downstream rate = 96416 Kbps
Path:	0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80000 Kbps
...
SNR Margin(dB):	10.5	10.0	9.7	N/A	6.6	6.5	6.6

The SNR values (just above 6dB) suggest your modem can only just manage to achieve the 80Mbps sync speed alongside the 20% of overhead for FEC; that would match the 96Mbps of the attainable.

Note: In the past, we have found that the Max attainable speed seen when FEC/interleaving is turned on is too high. If DLM removes intervention, it is likely that the attainable speed will reduce to around 88Mbps.

What distance are you from the cabinet (line distance, rather than as-the-crow-flies distance)?

So, what caused the DLM intervention?

On FTTC, DLM is not very prone to intervening because of modem disconnections; I've seen a figure of 10 disconnections in a day. VDSL2 has a mechanism for the modem to report a loss of power to the DSLAM, so it is always better to power-cycle the modem before disconnecting it from the phone line.

The usual DLM intervention comes from monitoring the error rate - in particular we believe it monitors the value that ES changes over a 24 hour period before intervening, or increasing intervention. It may then monitor the FEC counters to aid its decision on de-intervening; this aspect is less clear.

Right now, your stats show:

OHF:	 129019251	 286885
OHFErr:	 602	 2
RS:	 3296679127	 3471720
RSCorr:	 37382999	 43
RSUnCorr:	61068	 0

and

AS:	 135975

That shows that the FEC process has corrected 37,382,999 errors in 135,975 seconds of uptime. That's 275 errors per second, or 1 million per hour over a 37 hour period.

That sounds like a lot - it means that around 1 in 88 blocks of data needs correcting, so it is no wonder that DLM has intervened - and I think it is likely that the intervention will stay.

However, it also looks to be a successful intervention: The FEC process has only failed to correct 61,068 blocks in that time, which has led to only 602 CRC errors; even better, those errors have occurred over only 122 seconds (the ES value): so less than 100 ES's per day. It is unlikely that DLM will need to add more intervention.

For comparison, my line (with almost identical attenuation) has no DLM intervention. It runs at around 5,000 CRC's per day and 500 ES's per day.

cheers for that wombat, alot of good info for me to digest. Was hoping that the interleaving may be switched off after say leaving the modem on for a bout 2 weeks but if this is going to be permanent then I better get used to it.

The problem I see with FTTC is this

If my original estimate by talktalk was 59mb down 18up then we have 20% loss of throughput in the case of interleaving THEN crosstalk possible problems either now or in the future meaning even less speed, so it then starts to look expensive.

I know that originally my attentuation was 21db line for a 18mb sync before moving to fiber

I am 0.5 miles from the cabinet which is No.6 for LCWAL exchange

On the btspeedtest i NEVER get over 47mb so dont know whats happening there.

anyway, thank you very much all of you for such an informative post.

So it wouldn't really change anything if i powered down the modem and router for at least 30mins every week say???

for simple terms for me to understand lol why is the sync 80/20, my estimate only 59/18 yet throughput is only 47mb when max attainable (think i understand on this) is 96/28 ???

WIsh it would just be like adsl2+ wheres you sync 80/20, you get like 77/18 end of lol

cheers



Andy

What do you get on the thinkbroadband speed test? Please post the link it provides for the full graphical result.

You should be getting speed test results in the seventies. Are you connecting wired or by wireless?

At around 800 meters I'm surprised you getting what you are, I'm 450 meters and get about 45. Perhaps you are closer than you think.

will post the results when home from work.

Yeah I think it is more like 400m from the cabinet,

Connected via 500mbs homeplugs, router is in back bedroom, I am under the stairs in my little hidy hole lol

How do I post hgstats graphs on here? Is it possible, easier to show pictures I guess



Andy

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Apr-14 15:51:40)

Best to try direct wired. Otherwise you will never know if you have a problem with the HomePlugs and you could waste an awful lot of your time hunting for a non-existent problem elsewhere .

We did some testing ages ago on 500 Mbps Home Plug units

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/hardware/reviews/70-de...

And very possible the units are the bottle neck, since they speed depends on the state of the mains wiring and how many is involved.

Home plugs have also been known to cause interference with FTTC, so might well be the cause of your interleaving.

If you can, do away with them and see what happens to your error rates.

Right, 53mb down using normal, 62mb down using 6x burst

18.5 - 19mb up always


This is direct to the HG612 - laptop plugged in, not my pc downstairs

So if my interleaving level of 3 and 8ms equates to 20% interleaving intervention I must be about right. give or take 5mb


Cant get rid of the homeplugs due to the location of my computer but may knock up a data extension lead and run it downstairs due to the distance being less than 30m


How do you post graphs and pics (easier to describe or see) ???


cheers



Andy

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Apr-14 18:44:49)

You cannot post pictures directly to here.

The thinkbroadband test provides a few links. So does speedtest.net. Anything else you have to upload somewhere and post a link. We really could do with seeing the fullest detail tbb graph as the shape tells us a lot, so please can you post the link it gives?

http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3470299447

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/line_s...

DSL stats

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Apr-14 20:15:46)

In reply to a post by rd350ypvs:

So if my interleaving level of 3 and 8ms equates to 20% interleaving intervention I must be about right. give or take 5mb

The 20% used by FEC is taken away from you by the modem before it displays the sync speed... so the sync speed should be the raw speed that your router should see.

In your case, the 20% (16Mbps) s the difference between the 80Mbps sync and the 96Mbps attainable.

Then, with an 80Mbps sync speed, the router should be able to get max 77.4Mbps through at the IP layer. Speed testers will probably give results in the region of 73-75Mbps.

I must improve my descriptions...

Oh - for posting images here, I tend to use http://postimage.org/

ah cheers wombat, so my speeds of 53 are way below what I should be getting


I have posted stats for you to look at



cheers


Andy

Just bringing out this one:-

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

from your post to highlight it for MrSaffron .

Was that direct through the modem, or through the Homeplugs? Ideally he needs one through the modem. Incidentally, what OS is the laptop you used? Windows XP and earlier have (easily solved) issues with speed tests.

Start I think looks like kaspersky av is installed and running

no that was connected through homeplugs, the speed directly was only 2-3mb more, still a lot less than 77mb lol

laptop running windows 7 home edition.

AVG free is running Andrew, that's the only thing that was.

currently my errors from 10:16 are like this, lots of noise from somewhere



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/2014-0...


I live about 0.5m as the crow flies from BAE systems in Barrow, so it could be something to do with nightshift and generators (could be clutching at straws here)

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Apr-14 23:27:15)

I may run some cat5 directly from the nt5 vdsl socket downstairs and connect the modem where my pc is. It is no more than a 15m run, currently upstairs it is about 1m from the combi boiler so that also could be making the noise, although it isn't running currently

Don't know if this helps


Per second Per minute Per hour Per day

CRC Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0 0.02 1.01 24.2

FEC Up 0 0 0.08 1.94
Down 22.8 1370 82220 1973279

HEC Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0 0.10 5.73 138

ES Up 0 0 0.16 3.87
Down 0 0.03 1.98 47.5


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/zzr600E1/pbPara...

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Apr-14 23:38:06)

not only that but they could be slowing down a line via interference.

I was with you until now. I thought the system worked like

* sync check max sync speed , say 96 download speed
* limit sync speed to artificial isp limit , say 80 download speed, eg what you paid for
* construct physical connection at that 80 speed to the users fttc modem
* start data path
* start error correction strategies

Thus any loss in throughput would come out of the 80 in my example not the 96. Eg you do not get error correction capacity for free. Also if it was for free, then the users modem could be hacked to get the full line speed bypassing the isp rate limits, which does not happen

Is this correct or am i miss understanding how this happens.

The max sync speed is 80 currently

Hardset by configuration of port in cabinet.

The attainable figures that kit report are theoretical NOT actual

@rd350ypvs

Feel free to drop me a DM with your username so I can run some checks for you.

Adam, have sent you a pm

I am on talktalk by the way

In reply to a post by iand:

* construct physical connection at that 80 speed to the users fttc modem
* start data path
* start error correction strategies

The error correction strategies fundamentally change the shape of the underlying connection - particularly interleaving - which is why a resync is necessary. If you can get a user data path speed of 80Mbps with error correction in place, then you do indeed get the bandwidth for the error correction for free (see "HG612 stats how do they look" thread for a case too).

MrSaffron is right that the attainable figure is a theoretical calculation, rather than an actual. However, the modem has some knowledge of what is attainable while constructing the actual setup; For example, the modems that negotiate additional (unbidden) FEC protection upstream only seem to do so when there is spare capacity (above the 20) to do so.

Adam, did you get my PM m8?

Well turned modem off at midnight last night and back on at 6:30 am this morning. Not surprised to find no change in interleave level. Still 1435 at 3 and 8ms. Will change the modem at the weekend back to the eci and see what that achieves

I just find it odd that it syncs at 80/20, never deviated from that yet I cant really acheive greater than 53mb download. surely my stats arent that bad. I will give the eci modem 10 days from this weekend to test the interleave theory.

Edited by deleted (Wed 07-May-14 16:38:53)