FFTC install - it works, but not overly happy.

Had FTTC activated today - 80/20 profile - and it's up and running, which is good but not happy with the engineer install.

The engineer, from MJ Quinn, wasn't familiar with the area and wasn't even sure where the cabinet was (fair enough if not been to the area before). When he turned up asked where my isp provided modem/router was which concerned me - I'm not with a mass market isp and was just expecting an open reach modem and to plug my router in to it. Having explained this, he did understand and got a modem from the van (an ECI, just my luck!)

After he'd been to the cabinet and made the changes, he came back, plugged the modem in, then asked if had a laptop and a lan cable! Now, maybe I'm just mad, but I really expected that the "engineer" would have all the necessary kit (including a laptop) to check everything was working. I also expected that the openreach modem would have come with a lan cable - they come with everything these days - why wouldn't they come with the modem?! Fortunately I did have one to hand.

But what really, really, peed me off was when he declared the install complete having just connected the modem to my several years old adsl filter - no shiny new interstitial face plate fitted, not even a shiny new standard plug in filter/splitter. I queried this with him but no, apparently they're not needed (which might technically be true), they just exist because openreach like to see their name on the master socket, and besides I have a extension wiring connected to the master socket! And he then said this wasn't a managed install!!

Well if it's not a managed install, why have I had to take the day off work to be available for a 5 hour appointment slot. Anybody can plug a modem into a phone socket and check if the light has goes green. I actually wanted self-install, and have put off getting it sorted for months because nobody offers that for 80/20 fttc - yet on the basis of this install there is absolutely zero reason that an engineer needs to install kit in the home - all fttc should be self install.

I'm absolutely furious!!

I have to say it does seem to be working just fine, but their should be a standard, defined install procedure where everybody (or nobody) gets the faceplate.

I have asked my ISP to raise a complaint with openreach about this - not so much with the engineer, but just about the process.

Is this typical these days? Was I expecting too much?

Ask your ISP what type of install they ordered. It may have been modem only install. Not all contractors do bad work.

I had a 80/20 install done a few weeks ago by MJ Quinn and the engineer was top notch - I'm with TalkTalk business. He moved the master socket to where I wanted it and put on a new openreach mk2 faceplate. Took him around 40 mins and I couldn't be happier with the install BTW who is your ISP?

Edited by deleted (Tue 27-May-14 23:00:58)

Cowboy, telling fibs.

One point however where you are mistaken. A "managed install" is where the user's router is also connected and a connection to the internet via the ISP PPP login established. Or in the case where the ISP supplies a modem router that this is done with the supplied box.

A non-managed install is where a modem connection to the DSALM at the cabinet is proved to pass the tests.

They are supposed to fit an Openreach interstitial faceplate. End of! So another one could be on its way to eBay.

The old dangly filters (and ADSL faceplates) will work, but apparently the new OR one is to a higher spec to prevent the VDSL2 frequencies affecting the voice circuit and VDSL2 frequency noise getting back onto the line from the voice wiring. (That's what the filters do, the broadband socket is unfiltered).

Having extension wiring present is precisely the reason for fitting an interstitial filter rather than the earlier type of broadband filtered faceplate. It means the extension wiring on the back of the NTE5A need not be disturbed. The new filter plugs into the test socket and the existing NTE5A plugs into the new filter plate. Slots are there for the extension wiring to go through.

Your FTTC may be running. What you can't easily tell is if it is running as well as it should.

Create a stink! About Quinn's and their engineer. There is nothing wrong with the process. They are not following it, but they are paid so to do. You want it sorted out and properly tested.

@Ribble - yes, I hadn't realised there were 2 types of install - so if it was modem only, fair enough, but still doesn't get away from the lack of a faceplate.

@baby_frogmella - I'm sure there must be plenty of competent engineers working for Quinn (and Kelly) - and in fact the guy that did my install might have been perfectly competent, after all it is up and running - it's just his excuses for not fitting a plate were feeble, and I don't know whether he genuinely thought they were good reasons for not doing it, whether he just needed to get on to the next job (a 30 minute drive away in another town), whether he just couldn't be bother, or whether he has a nice sideline flogging openreach parts! My ISP is now Aquiss.

@RobertoS - thanks for clarifying the different types of installs - I'd assumed they were all the same (my ignorance). I did think, but couldn't remember for certain, that there wasn't any impact on the extension wiring if a filter faceplate was fitted - otherwise I'd have argued more strongly for getting one fitted - or even for him just to leave one with me to fit myself. I contacted my isp very shortly after the engineer left to ask them to log a complaint with openreach. I've been told though that nothing else will be done now unless a fault develops, and I don't really want to have to wait in for an engineer to call back anyway. Whilst talking to my isp, I was told that most fttc installs now seem to be by a contractor rather than a 'proper' openreach engineer in their experience. Don't know if others have found the same.

You could always buy a Mk2 filter from Ebay

It might even be the one that should have been installed there .

What does this checker give for your FTTC estimates - using your phone number? Copy those into a draft post.

Then run the BT Performance Tester. Ignore all the red instructions, just click that you've done them.

When you get the initial results page click the Further Diagnostics near the bottom. It will ask for your phone number, then after a few seconds wait will come up with a more detailed page.

Please copy and paste the full contents of the down and up results text boxes into the earlier draft post. We don't need the graphics part.

That will give us some idea of how your line is performing against expectation.

The thought did cross my mind.

The engineer wasn't sure about the location of the cabinet, he didn't know that you required a modem, he didn't fit a filtered faceplate - sounds like a case of poor communication and workmanship to me. Hopefully the broadband performance will be good demonstrating that he at least did a good job at the cabinet after he eventually found it!

Good Evening,

Its interesting that you have posted here. I have literally raised 8 identical complaints about MJ Quinns today, all new installs in the past 2-3 days, all of which sound familiar of poor workmanship and clearly cutting corners.

We have 4 customers who have no modem left (now repeat engineer going out to supply kit).

1 customer who reported M J Quinn left them with a BT Home Hub 5, rather than VDSL modem.

We have 1, which sounds like yourself (as above).

1 customer who M J Quinn refused to do the install as kids in the street were giving him abuse....hmmm

1 customer who M J Quinn cut all the customers internal phone lines off because in the engineers words "He can only have 1 working socket for fibre".


I am really sorry that BT Openreach contractors are not doing the job we are paying them to do, as this reflects on ourselves and other service providers.

Martin, in no way is this a complaint against yourself (or any isp for that matter), I understand entirely that the install at the cabinet and premises is openreach - though obviously a lot of customers may not realise that.

From what you've said it sounds like I did pretty well actually compared to those other people! As said, I did have to ask for the modem though - don't know what he would have done if I hadn't.....

That thought occurred to me too! I am thinking of buying a plate anyway, but from what I've been reading it's unclear whether the mk2 is worth getting over the mk1, sounded like some people have had poorer performance with it.

I was wondering about running such a test. One thing though, is it testing the speed I'm actually obtaining and therefore I need to run it over a wired connection, or is that not important and I can just run it over wireless?

Out of interest, have you tried raising these issues with Openreach themselves, as in complained higher up the food chain ?

It clearly peeves you, your customers, and trust me, it does likewise for Openreach staff who constantly have to clear up after these clowns.

No one listens to the engineers, so maybe if an ISP made enough noise, then the 'middle management' who love these guys (they are cheap, end of) might take notice ??



*Just my opinion.

Wired would be preferable.

As Zarjaz says, wired is preferable, but for the immediate purpose wireless will do as we still get to know the (sync speed and) IP Profile. Plus if you get the estimated figure from the other checker I gave we see how you are performing against that.

As a speed test, wireless is often useless on FTTC as the speeds are too high for most people's to cope for example I get ~50Mbps wired and 35Mbps wireless, but I'm not interested in your actual throughput speed at this stage.

I won't publish our customer details here, but I can report that GEA tests show the line to be in sync exactly at line estimates.

LOL Martin.

I think I'd rather see the estimates and the IP Profile from the customer .

Edit: Having seen the requested figures, Martin's comment is perfectly acceptable. Though I don't see the need to refrain from saying his customer is getting the maximum sync. (Technically, for the pedants, the maximum IP Profile).

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 28-May-14 21:57:53)

ok, here are the results:


High Low High Low

FTTC Range A (Clean) 80 79.9 20 19.9 -- Available
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 80 71.3 20 17.9 -- Available

WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 5 -- 3 to 7.5 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 5 Up to 1 3 to 7.5 Available
ADSL Max Up to 4 -- 2.5 to 7 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available
Copper Multicast -- -- -- Available


Download speedachieved during the test was - 55.04 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 60 Mbps-77.44 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 77.44 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 10.35Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps


It doesn't look like there's any problem to me (others may know better!).

I forgot to say I did a thinkbroadband speed test with a wired connection and it looked okay (though I think I had a slight concern over the upload) - but I need to retest and record the results properly. I initially only tested over wireless and only got approx half the expected speed both up and down.

Having migrated from an adsl connection that typically ran at 3.5Mbps/0.5Mbps, or 4Mbps/0.75Mbps at best - fibre is something of a revelation!

I am happy with the speeds I'm getting, it was purely the openreach install part of it that annoyed me. Maybe I can improve fractionally by adding a faceplate - so I'll probably do that. Really disappointed that I've got an ECI modem, rather than a Huawei - so that's something else I'll be looking to buy I think.

BTW - appreciate the response to the thread, and people taking time to comment. Cheers!

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As a speed test, wireless is often useless on FTTC as the speeds are too high for most people's to cope

Really? On our 4 pcs all connected by wifi N or AC, i'm getting speedtest results between 70-75 meg downstream and 17+ meg upstream. Top end cable/fibre routers such as Linksys EA6900, Netgear R7000, Asus AC68U et al are miles ahead of ISP supplied routers when it comes to wifi range & speeds. However i agree that smartphones and other handheld wifi devices won't give you the full 70-75 meg in wifi speedtests due to the size of the wifi chips used.

Edited by deleted (Wed 28-May-14 20:57:18)

In reply to a post by tonytiger07:

IP Profile for your line is - 77.44 Mbps

That's good, you can't get any higher than that, but wait and see whether it survives the first 48 hours as DLM might intervene and knock it down a bit.

I am not sure who did our recent Aquiss install but it was a third party contractor on behalf of Openreach (White van with a small Openreach logo and their company name).

Other than some dirty footprints left on the carpet (Which cleaned off ok but the Sky engineer the day before certainly wouldn't have entered without putting the blue bags on his feet) the install was ok, the entire faceplate was replaced and the wiring was tidy in there before he put the cover on.

I did have to "remind" him I needed a modem and he wasn't sure if I was supposed to get a HH or not but there was no issue and he promptly got one from his van.

My speeds are as expected too being 90m from the Cabinet

Download speed achieved during the test was - 74.9 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speed is 40 Mbps - 77.44 Mbps

Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 77.44 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 16.76Mbps

Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps

Edited by D_an_W (Wed 28-May-14 21:38:31)

My parents had a diasterous install via Kelly's the other week. The master socket was in the hall with a corded phone plugged and an extension going upstairs to the bedroom to the router.

I pop round in the evening and the "old" master socket in the hall has been disconnected and the new type master socket fitted to the end of my extension lead!
(So no phone downstairs, BT youview box not working and no where to plug a Skype phone in upstairs that was previously plugged in)

My parents complained and the next day another Kelly engineer came around and was disgusted as to what his colleague had done.

All sorted now and all working fine, but still frustrating.

I largely agree. Note however I did say "is often useless". The "often" is relevant.

First you specify top-end routers. Not what the majority have.

Second, I have a n-rated wireless card in my laptop. WiFi connection above 72.2Mbps not available on single channel, but throughput acceptable at 35Mbps or so as previously posted.

I have an ASUS RT-N66U router. Adding an ASUS USB-N53 adapter to the laptop causes disaster. Everything falls apart on the laptop, (a 12-month old ASUS).

I'm running with the built-in card on 2.4GHz, SIII and iPad on 5GHz.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 28-May-14 22:12:55)

dont isps get compensated for duff installs? if yes they probably like them as well

As far as I know any BTw based isp can only complain to BTw not openreach, only LLU providers deal direct with openreach. But I may be wrong.

Well, out of the blue today I got a call from a manager at Openreach!

This was a follow up from the complaint my ISP had raised with them. Early next week I should have an openreach faceplate installed and then the port will be reset to clear the profile.

I'm genuinely surprised that anything has come of this, I didn't expect anything at all from Openreach. So many thanks to Martin at Aquiss for raising this in the first place, and full credit to openreach for responding and trying to get this resolved to my satisfaction.

I'll post another update once the faceplate has been installed.

Hi

Same story with me and Kelly's. No test equipment, no modem was brought in with them, clearly they try and and not hand them out, so had to ask and he went back to the van and got an ECI.

Seeing the sync light on seemed to be enough to know it was all okay.

I did get the proper master socket filters fitted however.

I wasn't impressed with the service but at least it is working with no issues.

In reply to a post by LC100:

Seeing the sync light on seemed to be enough to know it was all okay.

I appreciate that on a non-managed install the engineer is only required to install and test the FTTC modem (with all the proper enabling works). That said, based on a recent problem that I had on my line when the line would not achieve a CHAPs authentication - and therefore would not connect through to my ISP - I would now insist on a PPPoE test to a PC/laptop before the engineer leaves. In my case, a 'lift and shift' failed to resolve the issue and it required a call from BTOR to BTW for the latter to carry out a radius server rebuild.

In reply to a post by LC100:

Same story with me and Kelly's. No test equipment, no modem was brought in with them, clearly they try and and not hand them out, so had to ask and he went back to the van and got an ECI.

Yes, I agree - other than selling them on themselves privately, I don't see what reason they have for not handing them out, as I assume Openreach supply the contractors with the modems and filters.

And for people who don't know what to expect and what should be provided as part of the install, they will get away with not leaving anything - as pointed out above as having happened by Martin (Aquiss) - leaving the ISP to handle the unnecessary complaints.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

In reply to a post by LC100:

Seeing the sync light on seemed to be enough to know it was all okay.

I appreciate that on a non-managed install the engineer is only required to install and test the FTTC modem (with all the proper enabling works).

This is why I don't understand why nobody (afaik) offers self-install 80/20 fttc. If the engineer doesn't check that the sync speed is roughly what was predicted what's the point? The modem might light up and show sync, but if it's only synced at 20/10 instead of a predicted 76/20 then having an engineer plug it in is worthless. That's why I expected him to come with a laptop and run some diagnostics to check the speed was within whatever tolerance they deem acceptable.

I forgot to say earlier, the openreach manager I was talking to said he'd run diagnostics on my line and could detect the extension wiring! Didn't expect them to be able to do that.

Hello, first time posting here - but I thought I would mention that EE do self-install 80/20 FTTC. I did it myself this week. I was a bit surprised, as I was assuming some in-home engineer intervention would be required, but having read this thread maybe I'm glad it didn't. EE's supplied router supports VDSL natively, I don't know if many other ISPs do this yet (although I thought BT's latest home hub did) - so maybe the fact that a separate modem is not required is a factor.

While ideally I would have liked to get my master socket moved somewhere near a power socket, my filtered extension (courtesy of one of Clarity's filtered faceplates which I installed for ADSL) seems to be working perfectly and I'm getting 79.99/20 line speeds.

Edited by deleted (Fri 30-May-14 21:58:27)

Malcolm - that's interesting, thanks for posting. I did look at EE a month or 2 ago, but I'm sure they weren't offering an 80/20 option then, either that or line rental was compulsory. I couldn't find anybody that was offering 80/20 self-install, only 40/10.

Moving line rental to EE was compulsory. Didn't bother me as I only use it for broadband anyway.