Advice on new install

Hi, hoping you guys can help with a concern!

We ordered fibre through TalkTalk Business for our company, an Openreach contractor turned up (very late) today and struggled to figure out how to fit a line.

Eventually figured it out and plugged in the TalkTalk Huawei modem, told us he wasn't there to do the fibre, and left, having broken a PDQ line in the process (another engineer coming to repair).

TalkTalk tell me a third engineer will come out to do the fibre part of the job, but I am concerned about the quality of line fitted, as ADSL is only syncing at ~9mbit/s, when our company is on the main road with the cab, definitely much less than 100m away.

Is ADSL sync indicative of fibre sync?

In reply to a post by adammde:

I am concerned about the quality of line fitted, as ADSL is only syncing at ~9mbit/s, when our company is on the main road with the cab, definitely much less than 100m away.

Is ADSL sync indicative of fibre sync?

Not at all. The ADSL "signal" is coming from the exchange, not the cabinet. There could be quite a distance between the exchange and the cabinet.

Thanks for the reply!

The exchange is about a mile from the cab, if you follow roads and allow an inefficient route these things seem to take. Does ~9mbit/s reasonable for this distance?

If you are on ADSL2+ and only a mile away then I'm pretty sure it should be around double that, but after a mile the speed drops off very quickly, if you go to http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php and put in telephone number or postcode then it should tell you a pretty decent estimate of how far away from the exchange it actually is.

In reply to a post by adammde:

Hi, hoping you guys can help with a concern!

We ordered fibre through TalkTalk Business for our company, an Openreach contractor turned up (very late) today and struggled to figure out how to fit a line.

Eventually figured it out and plugged in the TalkTalk Huawei modem, told us he wasn't there to do the fibre, and left, having broken a PDQ line in the process (another engineer coming to repair).

TalkTalk tell me a third engineer will come out to do the fibre part of the job, but I am concerned about the quality of line fitted, as ADSL is only syncing at ~9mbit/s, when our company is on the main road with the cab, definitely much less than 100m away.

Is ADSL sync indicative of fibre sync?

You are expecting "fibre" which I take to mean FTTC and you have been left with 9Mbps ADSL on the line. Did it have ADSL before? And can you get the full ADSL line stats from te modem/hub currently installed. 9Mbps is a little slow but there could be a reason.

What hardware is currently installed?

You ordered goods from the butcher and the baker turns up with something you don't want and manages to break something while there. Well that's TalkTalk for you and probably an Openreach contractor thrown into the mix as well.

It seems that new FTTC customers are, as a matter of course, expected to put up with these poor quality installation jobs which increasingly seems to be the norm. Monkeys and Organ Grinders spring to mind.

If you are on ADSL2+ and only a mile away then I'm pretty sure it should be around double that, but after a mile the speed drops off very quickly, if you go to http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php and put in telephone number or postcode then it should tell you a pretty decent estimate of how far away from the exchange it actually is.

Thanks very much for the replies guys. Yes so far just ADSL2+. Kitz gave 998m (direct, so a bit meaningless), 1.5km by road (although I suspect their routing is optimistic). The BT estimate shown is 14mbit, I too would have expected better than 9mbit...

You are expecting "fibre" which I take to mean FTTC and you have been left with 9Mbps ADSL on the line. Did it have ADSL before? And can you get the full ADSL line stats from te modem/hub currently installed. 9Mbps is a little slow but there could be a reason.

What hardware is currently installed?

Yes FTTC, and no it was a new line install (we use ISDN for phone lines and Virgin for broadband). My concern is that the Openreach contractor wired into an easily accessible secondary DP rather than running it from the main DP in the loft.

The TalkTalk modem is a Huawei, I can check the model and line stats, would I have recourse to have the line rewired if the stats are poor?

You ordered goods from the butcher and the baker turns up with something you don't want and manages to break something while there. Well that's TalkTalk for you and probably an Openreach contractor thrown into the mix as well.

Yes I was most disappointed in the contractor OR sent in, I've had excellent experience with OR engineers before but this third party company took no care in the work. TalkTalk have been helpful though, so I'll reserve judgement on them for now!

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Jun-14 09:20:01)

A new line install and iy has ADSL operational. Whereas you ordered FTTC.

Something is definitely not right there. Why would a supplier get the exchange links in place for ADSL if they were to be immediately superceded by FTTC/VDSL.

You mention primary and secondary DPs - are they fully linked and documented? If so it could be that there is a good enough pair between the two that could be use. However, if you have that sort of install a third party contractor may not be the right person to do the end to end install.

In reply to a post by MHC:

A new line install and iy has ADSL operational. Whereas you ordered FTTC.

Something is definitely not right there. Why would a supplier get the exchange links in place for ADSL if they were to be immediately superceded by FTTC/VDSL.

You mention primary and secondary DPs - are they fully linked and documented? If so it could be that there is a good enough pair between the two that could be use. However, if you have that sort of install a third party contractor may not be the right person to do the end to end install.

A family member recently had BT Business Broadband installed on a new line and it followed the above pattern. If I recall, he had ADSL for about a week before getting upgraded to FTTC. I guess that it is something to do with BTW and BTOR. Makes no sense but that is how it seems to be.

Edited by lexden16 (Tue 03-Jun-14 09:53:49)

Could it be that there is ADSLx equipment being freed up in the Exchanges, so to get an "improved" although not final service to the customer, the "freed-up" ADSLx equipment is being used?

Would this also make it easier for OR to assess the line quality, from the Exchange, by noting the speeds etc achieved by ADSLx?

Thanks again for the input everyone.

the "freed-up" ADSLx equipment is being used?

Interesting thought but it's definitely ADSL2+. I removed the secondary DP cover and the Quinn engineer had left it in a state - plenty of loose bare wires and bundles of cables. I tidied up and the modem resync'd at 12mbit, presumably due to lower noise.

You mention primary and secondary DPs - are they fully linked and documented?

Good question, I believe neither fully linked or well documented beyond the diagram on the inside of the secondary DP. The engineer claimed he found a spare pair that went straight to the cab, but this seems unlikely in a secondary DP.

Why would a supplier get the exchange links in place for ADSL if they were to be immediately superceded by FTTC/VDSL.

Makes no sense but that is how it seems to be.

Completely agree. Waste of both ours and OR's time.

Regards the modem and line stats:
Model HG533 using TalkTalk customised firmware.
Upstream SNR 11.7/Downstream SNR 11.1.
Upstream attenuation 19.3/Downstream attenuation 36.

Anything else worth reporting, please let me know.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Could it be that there is ADSLx equipment being freed up in the Exchanges, so to get an "improved" although not final service to the customer, the "freed-up" ADSLx equipment is being used?

Would this also make it easier for OR to assess the line quality, from the Exchange, by noting the speeds etc achieved by ADSLx?

No use whatsoever. The cabinet is close by and the exchange a distance away so overall line quality information is worth next to nothing.

Jumpering for ADSL at the exchange will need to be removed later as it could/will cause issues with the VDSL service - so who picks up that cost? To me a totally pointless provision ...

Jumpering for ADSL at the exchange will need to be removed later as it could/will cause issues with the VDSL service

I'd have to disagree. My VDSL service ran for a year and a half till it was ceased (long story) at that point I could still gain sync with my original ADSL port, all to no detriment of the VDSL service.

It is entirely normal for the ADSL ties to be left in place after the circuit goes FTTC, they are only recovered if required for another customer.

Since the OP went with TT, then the ADSL sync and voice will be coming from the same equipment in the exchange, then throughout the Openreach TAMS ties, so there's nowt to remove.

Thanks for all the input. Unfortunately the saga continues.

A second Quinn engineer arrived Wednesday, fitted MK2 faceplate and supplied ECI modem, advised tests showed 80/20, VDSL sync'd fine... but no internet connection.

Have spent hours talking with TT engineers, who seem unable to determine the fault. Essentially they can see the connection all the way up to the OR modem, but the HG533 can't auth (tried two routers and two laptops direct into the OR modem). It has been suggested the auth issue is at the exchange, but they seem reluctant to ask OR to fix (presumably because it costs).

It's a month since we ordered the connection, I'd really appreciate any ideas what this might be!

In reply to a post by adammde:

Thanks for all the input. Unfortunately the saga continues.

A second Quinn engineer arrived Wednesday, fitted MK2 faceplate and supplied ECI modem, advised tests showed 80/20, VDSL sync'd fine... but no internet connection.

Have spent hours talking with TT engineers, who seem unable to determine the fault. Essentially they can see the connection all the way up to the OR modem, but the HG533 can't auth (tried two routers and two laptops direct into the OR modem). It has been suggested the auth issue is at the exchange, but they seem reluctant to ask OR to fix (presumably because it costs).

It's a month since we ordered the connection, I'd really appreciate any ideas what this might be!

I had a similar issue on my line. Fortunately, I was using a Fritz!Box and had a detailed log to help with the diagnosis. The problem was a CHAPS authentication failure. A SFI engineer changed the modem and faceplate, and carried out a 'lift and shift'. The BTOR engineer could do no more and the problem was referred back to BTW. Eventually, my ISP persuaded BTW to carry out a radius server rebuild which I was told is similar to a 'cease and re-provide'. I have had no issues since the rebuild was carried out. The challenge is getting BTW to agree to do it.

Sorry to hear it was such a pain for your fix, it does sound similar... Currently battling with TT to push it up the food chain.

It's somewhat comforting that you've had no issues since resolution though!

Eventually, my ISP persuaded BTW to carry out a radius server rebuild which I was told is similar to a 'cease and re-provide'. I have had no issues since the rebuild was carried out. The challenge is getting BTW to agree to do it.

This sounds about right for the OP's fault, the only difference being that there's no BTW involvement for a talk talk service.

My advice to the OP, ask TT to raise an SFVA task (Super Fast Visit Assured) The engineer needs to make sure (via a co-op call to the DCoE) that the circuit is built correctly, BBEU number, S tag and C tag etc. If this is correct, then TT need to strip out and rebuild the circuit their end.