cabling master socket & fibre.

Hi. I'm currently using my adsl on an extension socket (bt branded fascia in some places) some 30 feet from the master at the other end of the house. I really want to continue using broadband from this location but as I understand it fibre has to be connected to the master socket not an extension. Fibre in my area looks to be below 40Mb so I won't get an engineer will I - it will be self install? Do any of the ISPs still send an engineer out with the install for 40Mb who would be able to run a data extension cable (for no extra cost) or am I going to have to pay BT £130 to come and do the job? [I could at a push cat5 cable from the master to the extension but doesn't the router need to be as close to the master as practically possible? [The router can't be at the master as the wifi is complete a dead zone.]

Hope someone can offer a solution!

I think only BT and Sky do self-install so far. I'd be surprised if they don't offer the data extension cable any more, (which would cause an engineer install), but perhaps they don't.

You have two or three other possible solutions.

Plusnet do engineer install by default, and the free data extension cable (Home Wiring Solution) installation is an option in the order process. It would be a modem and separate router.

If you put CAT 5 in place beforehand, with a bit of spare at each end, then that is as good as the data extension cable and the engineer should be happy to connect it up. You would still need to order the data extension cable, to make sure the wiring job is on the task sheet. It depends who you think will do a neater cabling job, you or a professional. I'd choose the engineer.

That would put both the modem and router where the extension is now.

The second way, if you are happy with it, is to have a bog standard installation, with the modem where the master is. It's the modem position that matters, not the router. Then run an Ethernet cable using CAT 5 up to where the extension is and put an Ethernet socket there for the router. Best practice is also to put an Ethernet socket near the modem and use a short patch lead between the two.

This second method could also be used on a self-install from Sky, BT or whichever, where usually a modem/router is supplied. You would need to buy an HG612 Openreach modem off eBay.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

This second method could also be used on a self-install from Sky, BT or whichever, where usually a modem/router is supplied. You would need to buy an HG612 Openreach modem off eBay.

This is the best method to get the best / most reliable speeds. Modem at master socket, ethernet to router.

It depends how many other working extensions you have got/need and whether you are competent enough to do this, but it would be simple enough to convert the extension you are currently using into the master as a DIY job.

Illegal of course, but yes.

The problem with that is that he may as well just use the extension in the first place, which could be on cruddy cabling, so long as he has the ring wire disconnected at the master.

The whole point of the way it is done on an engineer install, or as I described, is to eliminate the existing wiring, as even CW1308 is not good on VDSL2, never mind some of the stuff that builders or house wiring electricians sometimes install. Good wiring is more important than on ADSLx.

This is one of the factors covered by the "impacted" estimates once people are all doing self-installs.

If an engineer comes to the install he could connect the incoming line directly to the cabling that serves extension socket and place new master socket where extension is now. and then you could just buy a blanking plate for old master socket location.

Do be aware that there is a very small chance you could lose some sync speed doing this but I've done it in a lot of new builds on countless occasions and never lost any sync speeds.. on most occasions increased it.

All depends on your setup type though, all new builds I go to have had the telephone cabling installed already and just activated at the exchange, you might have a setup where it was installed by BT or Openreach and an extension stapled along skirting..

Either way my suggestion should work either way.

Hope I helped and didn't confuse you.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Do be aware that there is a very small chance you could lose some sync speed doing this but I've done it in a lot of new builds on countless occasions and never lost any sync speeds.. on most occasions increased it.

On VDSL2?

Unfortunately not yet no,

though do know someone who had openreach do it on theirs and no problems are known.

There was a post not long ago, but I don't remember the details. For instance, if cable 20 metres from the cabinet it wouldn't matter. Or if is was a new-build with builder-installed Cat 5. I think there was one of those as well.

Don't forget, the fact that this thread exists is because the OP clearly want to optimise his line. He isn't worried about getting a connection, but in it being as good as it can be compatible with having his router where his ADSLx modem/router is .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

He isn't worried about getting a connection, but in it being as good as it can be compatible with having his router where his ADSLx modem/router is .

I understand this and that is why I'm suggesting the joining of incoming line to the extension so that he has no extensions and just the master socket where he currently has his ADSLx router/modem plugged in,

Meaning he would have the a NTE Master where his extension is instead of a extension socket.

I know what you are saying, but there is nothing magic about the master socket itself. It is the wiring from where the line hits the house that matters, wrt length and quality.

Using the existing wiring to place the master where the extension currently is does nothing at all to help. He may as well just use a dangly filter at the extension. Or for neatness, a filtered extension faceplate such as the ADSL Nation xtf ones.

Even with the HWS the original intention was to install a VDSL2 socket at the far end, leaving the master untouched except for the installation of the interstitial plate. It was user demand that led to the HWS being used to move the master.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Illegal of course, but yes.

The problem with that is that he may as well just use the extension in the first place, which could be on cruddy cabling, so long as he has the ring wire disconnected at the master.

The whole point of the way it is done on an engineer install, or as I described, is to eliminate the existing wiring, as even CW1308 is not good on VDSL2, never mind some of the stuff that builders or house wiring electricians sometimes install. Good wiring is more important than on ADSLx.

This is one of the factors covered by the "impacted" estimates once people are all doing self-installs.

Yes, poor cabing may cause a problem but assuming the cable is not the cheap stranded stuff, the speed issues are more likely to be caused if there are other extensions coming from the same master socket, hence why I said to do away with the current master socket and all the extensions of it, and move the master socket.

As for whether it is illegal, is there any proof of this? Of course they will charge you to remedy it if you make a mess of things, but nobody is going to get prosecuted over rearranging their internal wiring.

well yes but you cant run an FTTC modem or router at an extension socket.... or can you?

Yes you can, just like you can run ADSLx.

Edit for clarification. An unfiltered extension, as they all are until a filtered faceplate of any description is fitted at the master. Given a filtered faceplate at the master, then for the extension to be used for broadband it must be connected to the unfiltered IDCs on the back of the filter plate, and a filter fitted at the extension if a phone or other kit is needed there.

Edit 2. Did I say clarification? LOL. It does explain, but even reading it myself isn't a piece of cake .

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 03-Aug-14 19:49:16)

How it is two separate lines isn't it?

so of a 2 pair cable orange and white are PSTN and green and black are VDSL!

The only way I could think it could be done is by both PSTN and VDSL on one pair or changing extension pair from PSTN pair to VDSL pair.

Just noticed that the 2 IDC on the VDSL faceplate are actually for extension not to supply... woopsie!!

But still why would you want that and also have do you then plug the vdsl modem into a phone jack and not an RJ11

Edited by mlmclaren (Sun 03-Aug-14 19:31:46)

You can run VDSL from an extension but there will be significant loss of sync speed. If you are capped at 40/10 and the line is capable of a lot more then this may not be a problem. But if the line is only capable of 40 in the first place then this is going to be an issue.

It does not run over 2 pairs of wires. It runs over a single pair, same as ADSL and is filtered using the faceplace or a normal xDSL dangly filter.

In reply to a post by troublegum:

It does not run over 2 pairs of wires. It runs over a single pair, same as ADSL and is filtered using the faceplace or a normal xDSL dangly filter.

Ok, so for those of you restricted to using FTTC because of availability fair play, But personally I thought FTTC sounded rubbish in the first place but now that I learn its still over one pair and you still rely on a filter, I will not be encouraging many people to get it over virgin unless they have no choice.

Sorry but wth...

True, adding that the same applies on 80/20 .

Unless the user is close enough to the cabinet to have a lot of spare potential bandwidth, wiring length and quality are far more important than on ADSLx.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

True, adding that the same applies on 80/20 .

Unless the user is close enough to the cabinet to have a lot of spare potential bandwidth, wiring length and quality are far more important than on ADSLx.

Indeed, but the ISPs are only doing self install on the 40/10 packages aren't they?

The two IDCs on the interstitial VDSL faceplate provide a normal unfiltered line bearing both VDSL2 and phone service, just like old-style filtered faceplates from Openreach and several independent manufacturers.

I understand that now... though I don't really understand why they bothered changing people sockets and faceplate's when it is basically ADSL at a closer distance.


But I will cease the gunfire at FTTC until I get chance to have a play and investigate it for myself, though I think Virgin are going to win my side before I get rolled out... We'll see what comes about I suppose

In reply to a post by troublegum:

As for whether it is illegal, is there any proof of this?

No, it's not illegal in the slightest. Interfering with the wiring before the master socket in you property is simply against the BT terms of service. This essentially means that if OR are called out for a fault and they find the issue is caused by you fiddling with this wiring they can charge you for there time.

Ultimately, if the OP is not confident with this wiring job, they should get the installer to do the work when they come to connect the service.

Paul

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

well yes but you cant run an FTTC modem or router at an extension socket.... or can you?

Worth giving it a try with no other extensions connected and the bell wire disconnected. Filtered voice could still be used from extension socket. If it's no good then CAT5 from the A&B connectors on the back of a filtered faceplate on the NTE5 to a dedicated vdsl socket (data extension kit) for the modem/router.

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 03-Aug-14 21:21:00)

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Ok, so for those of you restricted to using FTTC because of availability fair play, But personally I thought FTTC sounded rubbish in the first place but now that I learn its still over one pair and you still rely on a filter, I will not be encouraging many people to get it over virgin unless they have no choice.

If virgin offered static IP, and their got their jitter under control, I would have considered them. However my 50Mbps connection over FTTC 'feels' more responsive than my friends 60Mbps DOCSIS 3 connection from VM.
Nothing to do with cable versus FTTC, its just Virgin's consumer ISP division is run at a low price, rather than quality. Bizarre :-/

RobertoS

I'd be surprised if they don't offer the data extension cable any more, (which would cause an engineer install), but perhaps they don't.

Looking I couldn't find anything on BT about an engineer for the 40Mb unless you paid but perhaps I need to speak to them on the phone.

Thanks for all your other advice is was really helpful and quick - though I've now seen so many replies i'm suffering information overload

It's the modem position that matters, not the router....This second method could also be used on a self-install from Sky, BT or whichever, where usually a modem/router is supplied. You would need to buy an HG612 Openreach modem off eBay.

Does that cause problems as BT HH5 is both combined.

The problem with that is that he may as well just use the extension in the first place, which could be on cruddy cabling,...
The whole point of the way it is done on an engineer install, or as I described, is to eliminate the existing wiring, as even CW1308 is not good on VDSL2,

That's very much my concern. The existing wiring has 2 extensions with the 2nd being further separated between my alarm and the BB ADSL. The cable starts out runs over the mains cable (armoured cable so may not be so much of an interference issue) then after a few feet joins a BT branded 1"x 2" white box when the cable size halves for about 8' until it meets another BT branded 1"x 2" white box where it goes back to the larger wire size and slots to the separate alarm and router cables. All the time the cable run alongside alarm/power cables.

So I tend to suspect using my existing cable is simply not a starter. I'll need to run a dedicated cable - the Bt data extension cable is CW1308 isn't it not cat5?

Edited by deleted (Mon 04-Aug-14 12:11:33)

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

If an engineer comes to the install he could connect the incoming line directly to the cabling that serves extension socket and place new master socket where extension is now. and then you could just buy a blanking plate for old master socket location.All depends on your setup type though, all new builds

I have 2 main and one secondary subdivisions extensions off the existing master so I imagine that might cause me new problems. House was new build when they were still wearing suits of armour!

In reply to a post by troublegum:

You can run VDSL from an extension but there will be significant loss of sync speed. If you are capped at 40/10 and the line is capable of a lot more then this may not be a problem. But if the line is only capable of 40 in the first place then this is going to be an issue

As i'm <500m from the cabinet I should be able to get higher than 40Mb though obviously i'm not even going to consider it unless it is going to be at the top end as the cost simply won't justify it - and probably still doesn't. I suspect that even if I order 40 then this will rise over time as successive generations of fibre products ramp up the speeds and if I make a bodge of the wiring now I might be living with the consequences or need to rewire again (at my cost) later!

I think the data extension cable is CW1308, as you say, but buying it yourself you need to be very careful about the source.

Although labelled as CW1308 I believe, (with no personal experience or research - just reading posts on here by knowledgeable people), that many products may not be twisted pair, particularly the flat ones sold to go under carpets. Cat 5 is definitely superior, but possibly very cheap version of that are also suspect.

The HH5 has both a modem port for direct connection to the VDSL socket, and a WAN port for connection to a separate modem. I don't know what Sky modem/routers have wrt a WAN port.

The same could be said for cat5/ cat5e cable too though. If you go down the cat5e route, the cable should have the specification printed on the outer sheath. And make sure it's not CCA too.

Paul

Thanks for that. It confirms my suspicion, which I did state .

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

The same could be said for cat5/ cat5e cable too though. If you go down the cat5e route, the cable should have the specification printed on the outer sheath. And make sure it's not CCA too.

Seems like it might be my most practical option. I can't see the openreach engineer wanting to take the time to carefully run my cabling though a difficult set of rooms and make hole in walls. I'm assuming i'll need to get shielded cat5e indoors with the amount of power cabling that's nearby. I did consider getting armoured cat5e and running it outside and drilling back in at the place I need it - could well be easier than running inside.

In reply to a post by Garlic:

I'm assuming i'll need to get shielded cat5e indoors with the amount of power cabling that's nearby. I did consider getting armoured cat5e and running it outside and drilling back in at the place I need it - could well be easier than running inside.

There's no point using shielded cable unless every cable used is shielded in your LAN. The inherent noise rejection the cat5e offers, by design, will be sufficient. It would be worth spending the little extra on low smoke, zero halogen (LSZH) cable though, from a fire safety perspective.
If you went external, you can buy specific external grade cat5e. It's not armoured but, uses a different spec plastic for the outer sheathing for greater longevity when exposed to the elements. Personally, I'd not bother with armoured cable but, that's a personal choice.

I have cat5e running from my drop line all the way to the loft where my master socket resides. BT state I should achieve a max of 3.5Mbps on my line and I manage 9.8Mbps, so it certainly performs well enough!

Paul

Edited by deleted (Mon 04-Aug-14 15:44:38)

The Home Wiring Solution, which is what Openreach now called the Data Extension Cable, can be run externally. The external cable is van stock.

Re the 40Mbps installation cost, if the HWS is still free then I would expect the necessary engineer visit would also be.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The Home Wiring Solution, which is what Openreach now called the Data Extension Cable, can be run externally. The external cable is van stock.

Aren't they still using this https://claritybroadband.co.uk/clxcart/BT-Openreach-... - isn't external grade cable generally used for relocating the NTE5?

The clarity kit is apparently two pair so is also good for 100Mbps ethernet

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 04-Aug-14 16:06:53)

I'm merely quoting some posters' experiences and a certain knowledgeable person whose nick begins with "Z". I'm sure you can fill in the blanks .

The HWS no longer plugs into the VDSL socket. It is hard wired to the internal IDC connectors.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The HWS no longer plugs into the VDSL socket. It is hard wired to the internal IDC connectors.

Thanks - that's interesting, guess they do that off the new interstitial plates...previously a rj11 plug on solid core never really seemed like a good idea

Be careful to work out the costs over the full term of the contract. Possibly a bit longer if you're considering using a line rental saver option, iie calculate for 24 months as well as 18 months to allow for the double line rental saver.

As an example I'm using BT Infinity Unlimited. In terms of monthly costs Infinity 1 is £4/month less for 3 months then £3/month less for the next 15 months. That makes a total saving of £57. However Inifinity 1 has a £30 activation charge whereas Infinity 2 does not. That brings the saving down to £27 or £1.50/month over the length of the contract.

In reply to a post by Kronos2001:

Be careful to work out the costs over the full term of the contract. Possibly a bit longer if you're considering using a line rental saver option, iie calculate for 24 months as well as 18 months to allow for the double line rental saver.

I think I'm paying 15£/m atm so i might benefit from line rental saver, interesting thanks i need to check that.

As an example I'm using BT Infinity Unlimited. In terms of monthly costs Infinity 1 is £4/month less for 3 months then £3/month less for the next 15 months. That makes a total saving of £57. However Inifinity 1 has a £30 activation charge whereas Infinity 2 does not. That brings the saving down to £27 or £1.50/month over the length of the contract.

Its fairly marginal certainly - one reason why if BT won't come out to fit my data extension cable (I can't find anything about 'Home Wiring Solution' on bts site have they changed the name) without charging for Inf1 it would pay to get Inf2 just to avoid the call out @ £129. I do have some concerns about some of the smaller providers and their reliability/customer services (and some of the modems they supply look poor compared to HH5 and worse still then the stand alone models) but then I suppose you tend only to hear about the problems.