FTTC modem/router

I'm looking to upgrade to fibre but I want a FTTC modem/router instead of the separate modem and router. Is that possible?

If so any recommendations are appreciated.


Hope this is the right section...

I've found the Billion BiPAC 8800nl is great - it works with either ADSL or VDSL (which is the signalling used by FTTC) so you can even have it pre-configured and running, and when the line gets upgraded, it'll just re-sync at the new speed as soon as you click the right button in the web management interface.
Not a bad price for what you get, it's a sensible physical layout that lets you see the indicator lights on the front, has all the cables at the back, and stands upright so that air rises up through it past the circuit board, so it doesn't run hot.
It's ready for vectoring, as soon as it's available where you are (which could give better speeds), and speaks IPv6 as well as 4 - and can tunnel one through the other.
Broadcom chipset gives good good compatibility with monitoring software and it seems to give good speeds (I've seen a report of 4Mbit increase over the BT supplied modem, but I'm not sure how that was worked out, unless the BT supplied one was unlocked to grab the details - which BT would frown on).
Too soon to comment on reliability or longevity of course - they haven't been around very long, but seem to be pretty popular.
BT even sell them, so can't exactly complain if you use one, now that wires only installs are available.

BT give a combined modem/router (HomeHub 5) as standard for new installs.

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

BT give a combined modem/router (HomeHub 5) as standard for new installs.

Heard the settings are pretty basic, I need advanced options

AVM Fritz!Box 7390 or 7490.
The present 7390 since 2009 ish
Successor to earlier Fritz!Box 7140 used for VoIP.
All Fritz!Box offer additional POTs (Plain Old Telephone) ports and allow multiple SIP contracts - eg, internetcalls.com (free calls worldwide £30 p.a) and sipgate.co.uk - calls ~1p/min.
Call routing and calling prefix for cost optimisation.
Also excellent call filtering in and out.
Call blocking for nuisance number(ranges) or diversion of number withheld calls to integrated answerphone (up to six and integrated FAX). Messages can be forwarded as emails.
Regular event, status and the call log can be emailed.

The 7390 & 7490 versions include a DECT base station for up to 6 DECT handsets.
The Fritz!Fon handsets work best as they integrate telephone book(s) - 500 or so entries and callers name shows on the handset before you pick up. Updates from the handset and export and import as XML.

The 7390 ran as a decent ADSL modem until early 2010 when we moved over to the Plus.Net FTTC trial. Shortly after the Openreach engineer left, the Huawei modem went back into its box and the 7390 was reconfigured from LAN router back to ADSL/VDSL modem Router.

Very intuitive local (or remote) web management.

VDSL diagnostics show what is going on between the modem and the DSLAM in the cabinet. More information than I or the Openreach engineer could understand.

Some folk moan about the 7390 2G4 and 5G Wi-Fi but our rambling thick walls are no problem.

reviews on Amazon under 'Fritz!Box Fon WLAN 7390'

Best £200 ever spent. And I've no shares in AVM!

In reply to a post by MJEdmunds:

AVM Fritz!Box 7390 or 7490.
The present 7390 since 2009 ish
Successor to earlier Fritz!Box 7140 used for VoIP.
All Fritz!Box offer additional POTs (Plain Old Telephone) ports and allow multiple SIP contracts - eg, internetcalls.com (free calls worldwide £30 p.a) and sipgate.co.uk - calls ~1p/min.
Call routing and calling prefix for cost optimisation.
Also excellent call filtering in and out.
Call blocking for nuisance number(ranges) or diversion of number withheld calls to integrated answerphone (up to six and integrated FAX). Messages can be forwarded as emails.
Regular event, status and the call log can be emailed.

The 7390 & 7490 versions include a DECT base station for up to 6 DECT handsets.
The Fritz!Fon handsets work best as they integrate telephone book(s) - 500 or so entries and callers name shows on the handset before you pick up. Updates from the handset and export and import as XML.

The 7390 ran as a decent ADSL modem until early 2010 when we moved over to the Plus.Net FTTC trial. Shortly after the Openreach engineer left, the Huawei modem went back into its box and the 7390 was reconfigured from LAN router back to ADSL/VDSL modem Router.

Very intuitive local (or remote) web management.

VDSL diagnostics show what is going on between the modem and the DSLAM in the cabinet. More information than I or the Openreach engineer could understand.

Some folk moan about the 7390 2G4 and 5G Wi-Fi but our rambling thick walls are no problem.

reviews on Amazon under 'Fritz!Box Fon WLAN 7390'

Best £200 ever spent. And I've no shares in AVM!

I doubt I'll use enough of those features to warrant £200.

The DrayTek Vigor 2860 looks good, might be able to stretch my budget to that.

In reply to a post by Zeco225:

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

BT give a combined modem/router (HomeHub 5) as standard for new installs.

Heard the settings are pretty basic, I need advanced options

Which options?

The choice of modem/router is rather dependent on which features you need or are important to you.

For example, if you have a subnet to route, don't get a Fritz!Box - they can only handle a single public IP address. If that's not a consideration, but advanced telephony capabilities are, then a Fritz!Box is right up your street.

I have a /29 subnet, so I sent the Fritz!Box back, and went for the Billion 8800 - and I'm very happy with it.

Is it not a bit irritating that three of its four LAN ports are only 100Mb?

I have a Billion 8800NL and I don't find it irritating having only 1 gigabit port because I have the gigabit port connected to a 24 port gigabit switch and anything that doesn't require/support gigabit speeds get connected to the other ports.

Billion 8800NL are one of the best out there. Best broadcom chipset, It's does increasing FTTC speed by 3.6Mbps extra better than unlocked openreach modem HG612. U can see full stats via dslstats software no problem.

Cheaper Billion 8800NL available via websites here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-8800NL-Gigabit-Wirel...

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/18474-billi...

IMPORTANT please do the following settings below:

click onto the configuration section and click on the WAN section go to your PTM0.1 connection and click the "edit" button... on this screen select "IP over Ethernet" from the top dropdown... then change the VLAN mux ID to "101" and change the 8021P to "0", finally change the MTU to 1492.... and click "apply" that should be work on FTTC UK. Don't forget to enter your isp username and password to connect.

Also use Openreach Power Supply (The white one) as it will work on Billion 8800NL because this power supply is less electrical interference than the Billion power supply (black one)

Edited by adslmax (Thu 02-Oct-14 12:48:53)

When I bought my 8800NL back in May it was pre-configured for UK FTTC. Maybe they changed it in the new firmware.

I realise you can just pay extra and bung in a switch but given the cost of gigabit LAN ports it just seems like penny pinching.

It is a LOT cheaper than many of the alternatives though.

Seems to be sold out everywhere at the moment so I'm guessing it's proving pretty popular...

In reply to a post by simon194:

When I bought my 8800NL back in May it was pre-configured for UK FTTC. Maybe they changed it in the new firmware.

The new firmware is not set up proper for UK FTTC. Because it leave blank on both VLAN mux ID and 8021P (both set at -01) as I do agree with you that Billion new firmware should have set it for UK FTTC but it removed.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

It is a LOT cheaper than many of the alternatives though.

Seems to be sold out everywhere at the moment so I'm guessing it's proving pretty popular...

and this too:

http://www.pcnation.co.uk/product.aspx?id=12506&af=11

Does the Billion have 2.4 and 5ghz wifi?

In reply to a post by Zeco225:

Does the Billion have 2.4 and 5ghz wifi?

No, only 2.4 wifi
Read here: http://www.billion.uk.com/product/vdsl/8800NL.htm

Edited by adslmax (Thu 02-Oct-14 16:53:15)

Yep SOLD OUT.

Do you think you were a bit hasty sending yours back?

In reply to a post by b4dger:

Yep SOLD OUT.

Do you think you were a bit hasty sending yours back?

They sent it back to me cos changed my mind. Because Billion didn't cause my DLM.

Edited by adslmax (Thu 02-Oct-14 17:54:24)

I'd read some of your posts elsewhere, where you said "never use a billion again" etc.

Are you using it now and if you are how are you finding it?

Using it now and so far everything seem fine for four days (no DLM yet)

I have used Fritz!Boxes now for over 4 years and the 7490 since March. The 7490 is a much-improved 7390 and it has never missed a heartbeat on my 80/20 connection. I am currently running the latest beta firmware which I updated on 31 Aug. I am getting max speeds on an 80/20 connection with a negligible error rate. If you do not need all the 7490's functions then I suggest that you look at the 3390 which retails at just over £100. It has the same GUI as the 7390/7490 and is future protected with G.INP and vectoring.

The 3390 is £146 on Amazon, where are you seeing it for close to £100?
Thanks.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

I have used Fritz!Boxes now for over 4 years and the 7490 since March. The 7490 is a much-improved 7390 and it has never missed a heartbeat on my 80/20 connection. I am currently running the latest beta firmware which I updated on 31 Aug. I am getting max speeds on an 80/20 connection with a negligible error rate. If you do not need all the 7490's functions then I suggest that you look at the 3390 which retails at just over £100. It has the same GUI as the 7390/7490 and is future protected with G.INP and vectoring.

Yes but very bad support from them (germany) and not very easy to set up VDSL2.

Knowing Billion they are bound to higher spec models in the wings probably equivalent to the 7800XL and 7800DXL ADSL models.

Billion 8800NL review: http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/billion-8800NL

There's also the ZyXel VMG8324-B10A (also found as the Eircom F1000).

This uses the same Broadcom chipset as the 8800NL but offers 4 GbE ports. It has quite a following over on the Kitz forums.

Details here.

If you can find them, they can be had for around £95 or £35-£50 for thr Eircom branded devices.

Paul

the billion 8800nl and zyxel vmg8324-b10a are well recommended (zyxel use latest beta drivers tho).

They both have better versions of the bcm chipset thats in the hg612.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 03-Oct-14 13:14:07)

Billion 8800NL are in stock now but seem more expensive at £70.62 excluding delivery charge which mean next business day delivery costs £6.60 inc VAT. They have 3 in stock at the moment.

http://www.broadbandstuff.co.uk/product_info.php?man...

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

the link in the article shows £59 with free delivery on Amazon.

Yes but waiting for 3-5 weeks!

Here is mine over 24 hours test:

HG612 8800NL-038
ES/hour 0.69 1.12
CRC/day ~67 ~227
SES/day 0 3

Maximum data rate: 35211 / 100874 on HG612
Maximum data rate: 37665 / 103336 on Billion 8800NL-038

Billion 8800NL gain 3Mbps extra on the maximum data rate than HG612 BT Openreach Modem.

How does the error rate compare? That's as important - if you increase sync speed, but increase the error rate too, you'll soon get DLM interested...

adslmax is very lucky to have such a good connection (even if he's sometimes not happy about it )

I would be interested if anyone is using it on a long(ish) FTTC line.
I'm only getting 23Mbs atm on a 680m line using the OR ECI modem (started off around 30).

Guess I'm just unlucky...

My first line was about 650m long. Property was built in 95, with almost all the run back to the (pre-existing) cabinet being guaranteed to be new - so we can be pretty sure there was no aluminium in the route, and most (if not all) was likely to be 0.5mm copper.

In the days when FTTC used the 8c profile, with 40/10 packages tops, it managed 37/10 with DLM in place from day 3.

When they switched to the 17a profile, but before 80/20 packages were allowed, it then managed 40/10 without need of DLM, and reported a maximum attainable of 61/16.

We left that place before 80/20 packages became available, so I have no idea what it would have achieved out of the attainable value.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by lexden16:

I have used Fritz!Boxes now for over 4 years and the 7490 since March. The 7490 is a much-improved 7390 and it has never missed a heartbeat on my 80/20 connection. I am currently running the latest beta firmware which I updated on 31 Aug. I am getting max speeds on an 80/20 connection with a negligible error rate. If you do not need all the 7490's functions then I suggest that you look at the 3390 which retails at just over £100. It has the same GUI as the 7390/7490 and is future protected with G.INP and vectoring.

Yes but very bad support from them (germany) and not very easy to set up VDSL2.

I can only conclude that you have never set up a 7390/7490. It requires nothing more than your ISP account/ password, VLAN, PPPoE and VCI.

AVM always respond to support questions in English, and their site has an excellent knowledge base. Which other manufacturer would replace a 2 year old box without demur. The 7390/7490 have been through Martlesham Heath.

See the AVM interview on ISPReview.

there is lots of info on kitz forum about the chipset in the 8800nl (same as the zyxel), I got the zyxel now on my line.

it definitely syncs around 2mbit higher on mine and similiar lines, I normally in the evenings get a few errored seconds that have high errors. These have now also occured on the zyxel, I think prior to those errored seconds the error count was lower than the hg612 but now with these it may be higher, but the actual ES isnt higher so far, and I think DLM looks at ES rather than CRC count.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

adslmax is very lucky to have such a good connection (even if he's sometimes not happy about it )

I would be interested if anyone is using it on a long(ish) FTTC line.
I'm only getting 23Mbs atm on a 680m line using the OR ECI modem (started off around 30).

Not quite as long as you - my line's around 600M.

But my Billion 8800NL gives me 53 Mbps down, 11 Mbps up, with no interleaving (and it's still slowly speeding up, as it's recovering from a line fault that caused me to swap the OR HG612 back in for the engineer visit.
The HG612 was giving me 45 down, 10 up, under identical conditions.
Those are measured throughputs, not sync speeds, as the HG612 is still locked (I'm preserving one in OR supplied state to use in case I end up in a dispute situation with a fault - I want one that they can see hasn't been messed with.
Sync speeds on the 8800NL are (currently) 55886 kbps down, 11166 kbps up, no interleaving.
So you may be losing out somewhere (although that may just be that your line suffers from more x-talk or something)
Certainly I found the 8800NL to be a worthwhile investment.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by lexden16:

I have used Fritz!Boxes now for over 4 years and the 7490 since March. The 7490 is a much-improved 7390 and it has never missed a heartbeat on my 80/20 connection. I am currently running the latest beta firmware which I updated on 31 Aug. I am getting max speeds on an 80/20 connection with a negligible error rate. If you do not need all the 7490's functions then I suggest that you look at the 3390 which retails at just over £100. It has the same GUI as the 7390/7490 and is future protected with G.INP and vectoring.

Yes but very bad support from them (germany) and not very easy to set up VDSL2.

It will also only work on a single public IP address, so is no use at all if you have to route a subnet.
I had to send mine back for that reason - support wouldn't talk to me without a serial number to register, so I didn't find out that it is a router that doesn't route (only work as a NAT gateway) until after I'd forked out for it
I wouldn't have minded if they'd made that clear on the sales information and technical specifications.

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

Is it not a bit irritating that three of its four LAN ports are only 100Mb?

Not in the least.

The VDSL line won't go as fast as that, and for internal network use the gigabit port connects directly to a managed 16 port gigabit switch (which also has another couple of GbE switches and a WiFi access point connected to it, but that's another issue).
It then leaves the 3 10/100 ports for devices that need public addresses - and are limited not by the speed of the port, but that of the FTTC.

I suppose if you only have the router as your network switch it might be an issue.
But I have way more devices on my network than that

Edited by deleted (Sat 04-Oct-14 17:09:27)

Mine was already configured when I updated the firmware, and on upgrading, it offered the option to restart with existing settings or with factory settings.
I chose to reboot with existing settings, so didn't have to change anything.

Thanks for that. I seem to be nearly at my lowest 'impacted' estimate

There's no more I can do with my internal wiring so I may be unlucky.
I'm in a rural situation with overhead line etc.

It would be good to get back to my original 30Mbps. I'm guessing DLM has seen my line as unstable. With my ECI modem I'm running blind (sync/errors/snrm) so will upgrade when I'm able.

Billion alway recommend updating the firmware using the factory settings option just in case the internal configuration tables have changed which could bork the router if there are any of the previous settings end up with invalid data in them.

Edited by simon194 (Sat 04-Oct-14 20:03:20)

adslmax,

I'm interested in your comment about using the OR power-supply brick with the 8800NL rather than the Billion-supplied one. I'm contemplating getting an 8800NL and wouldn't want to risk the integrity of my existing home network setup, with its myriad pieces of kit and numerous cables, by getting RFI needlessly coupled into it. But what actual hard evidence do you have that the Billion-supplied brick generates the DC with a lot of noise on it or otherwise radiates a good deal of electrical noise?

It's not that I disbelieve you or anything, it's more a matter of how you managed to fathom that the Billion brick was the culprit. Many power-supply bricks now incorporate small switching regulators, to alleviate efficiency concerns and heat generation. The switching frequencies are usually high, but if the brick meets the requisite regulations it's supposed to not generate potentially troublesome electrical noise, whether airborne or through the DC lead or back through the mains. As I see it, therefore, it's entirely possible - though somewhat surprising - that what you may have observed while using the Billion brick is an unpermitted level of RFI.

The only qualm I'd have about using the OR brick in its place is the possibility that some other aspect of the Billion brick's performance isn't met by the OR one, or the equivalence is marginal. So, personally I'd only use the OR one if 100% convinced that Billion's does generate troublesome amounts of RFI.

Do the OR and Billion bricks have exactly the same current (amperage) ratings?

Do you know of anyone else who's had some evidence of the same problem and has solved it in the way you suggested?

I imagine that adslmax discovered that his power supply was causing interference by the same method that I used. I had a DLM intervention on my FTTC for many months, as shown by my unlocked BT modem. Eventually, I decided to carry out a check for interference using an AM radio. I had seen various references to REIN on the forums so I researched it and discovered the advice to use an AM/MW portable radio tuned to about 612khz. Fortunately, I have a "World Radio", which includes MW and also has a metal telescopic aerial. This proved very useful as I could touch the end of the aerial onto all my power supplies and listen to the result. It turned out that the worst one was the one for my Draytek router. That made some horrendous noises. I bought a new power supply on eBay and within a few days the DLM intervention had gone. It's now been fine for about 4 weeks.

rjh,

What do you mean by 'DLM intervention'? Do you mean that, the line having been stable for some time, suddenly decided to re-sync?

And 'REIN' stands for?

It looks like adslmax is no longer using this topic. I'll give him/her a few more days to respond, but if I see nothing by then I'll try getting in touch with him/her via a private message.

"Him" .

Bear in mind these power supply plugs are really cheap stuff and no doubt highly variable in quality even from the same manufacturer.

He may simply have had a rogue one.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 07-Oct-14 14:12:37)

Crikey, that's a thought.

Sorry, it's easy to assume that everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Anyway, DLM is the system that monitors the line and tries to correct it when there are too many errors. In my case, it reduced my connection speed. I check this using software which works on my unlocked BT modem(they are supplied locked so that we can't access the figures!).

REIN is Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise, a kind of electrical interference. There's a good breakdown of the various types of interference on the kitz.co.uk website, in the ADSL section.

In reply to a post by rjh321:

Anyway, DLM is the system that monitors the line and tries to correct it when there are too many errors. In my case, it reduced my connection speed. I check this using software which works on my unlocked BT modem(they are supplied locked so that we can't access the figures!).

I'll add that an intervention by DLM is, when monitoring the line, it decides to make changes to the line profile in order to improve the number of errors happening. The usual first step is to add FEC (forward error correction) and interleaving, which steals some of your bandwidth (to allow the error correction to function) and increases your latency. Subsequent DLM steps tune the settings, in attempts to cope with different types of noise.

Each intervention causes a re-sync that looks spontaneous to the end-user. Such a resync usually occurs between midnight and 8am.

However, not every re-sync is something triggered by a DLM intervention.

Billion 8800NL are now back in stock http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/18474-billi...

adslmax,

Have you noticed that I've asked you about your power-supply problem, about a webpage or two back in this topic?

@ meditator - as for power supply u have to investigated it yourself between openreach modem plug and billion 8800nl plug as I have found billion 8800nl are less noise with openreach plug. (the white plug)

ES 30 with openreach plug (24 hour)
ES 71 with billion plug (24 hour)

Edited by adslmax (Wed 08-Oct-14 17:50:58)

£72.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

£72.

yeah bit expensive. I am sure everyone will order one from Amazon!

adslmax,

I was simply wondering how you'd identified that EMI coming from the Billion's power-supply brick was the problem. Did you, for example, draw your conclusion based on a test using an AM radio, as briefly described by a contributor earlier in this topic?

As someone who's now planning to get an 8800NL and switch from ADSL to FTTC, you've left me in a bit of a quandary. Normally, you wouldn't expect an experienced manufacturer like Billion to be knocking out power-supply bricks that produce troublesome amounts of EMI, but on the other hand it does appear that the 8800NL has been built down to a price and so a few corners in respect of its power supply may have been cut. That said, nobody else writing about the 8800NL in these forums has been complaining about EMI coming from the brick, or their setup showing constant retransmissions due to excessive line errors.

One possibility is that yours was merely faulty - a one-off manufacturing fault. I take your point, though, that it'll be up to me - and anyone else - to assess their 8800NL brick on an individual basis. But perhaps in the meantime it might be an idea for you to return your Billion brick to the retailer and ask for a replacement Billion brick (maybe put a small identifying mark on the returned one, to ensure the retailer doesn't erroneously send the same one back to you). If you find that the replacement also gives trouble, then you can be more sure that the brick is indeed a source of unwarranted EMI.

Incidentally, I don't understand what your quoted ES figures are all about. Is this some measure of line error rates, or what? Are you using some sort of special software application to measure EMI from the brick? The way the professionals would do this would be to use a spectrum analyser.

How is the wireless range on the 7490? I had a 7390 and it was appalling (I sent it back and bought a Asus router that was superb).

House is 1890s, Brick with timber floors and thick plaster ceilings.
Fritz!Box 7390, on first floor, since 2010.
Not done serious Wi-Fi tests - it just works - for laptops and smart phones.
Fixed kit is all wired - CAT 5, RJ45 & 100baseT switch.
The Thinkbroadband speed test is ok in various rooms downstairs.
In the back kitchen - through an additional 13" brick wall upload drops from 15.5 to 14.5Mbps.
Haven't tried a 7490.

ES is one of the types of errors which you can monitor through the interface of a VDSL modem, and stands for "error seconds", that is, the number of seconds during which an uncorrected error occurred.

In reply to a post by simon194:

Billion alway recommend updating the firmware using the factory settings option just in case the internal configuration tables have changed which could bork the router if there are any of the previous settings end up with invalid data in them.

I only used an option that they provided in the interface. If they aren't confident that it works, wouldn't they take it out?
Maybe on the next update, they will, but it worked perfectly for me