fluorescent lighting are very bad for FTTC

Hi all, I just been investigated where the ES/CRC Errors are coming from. Hallway lighting, bedroom lighting, living room lighting, bathroom lighting all ok. Kettle boiling doesn't affect nor microwave. Except I finally found out it was caused by the kitchen lighting called fluorescent lighting that will count 2 on ES, 4 on CRC for everytimes switch it on.

I done switch on / off four times and ES went burst of 8 and CRC went burst of 16.

Finally, very interesting how on earth that fluorescent lighting can cause your FTTC errors could leads to DLM if u use the switch on / off more often in the kitchen during the evening.

I better get rid of fluorescent lighting!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y8J3axzhUMk/T9M_Z5icH5I/AA...

Edited by adslmax (Fri 10-Oct-14 00:27:54)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I better get rid of fluorescent lighting!

Easier- once you've turned it on in the evening, don't turn it off until you go to bed.

When you turn a fluorescent light on, the starter and choke combine to generate a high voltage (several kV) spike to "strike" the tube. This is what will be causing the errors and, along with a high current initially supplied to the cathode heaters, is what causes eventual failure of the tube and/or starter.

The cost of replacing these when they fail will quite likely exceed the electricity savings of turning the light off when you don't need it.

I can confirm Bill's response to your problems with fluorescent lighting - particularly if switched ON and OFF frequently.

Another clue is that the switch itself often sparks when making and breaking the circuit.

Additionally from research I carried out many years back, this type of lighting can also generate multiple harmonics in the mains wiring compared with other devices, leading to that research work.

Edited by deleted (Fri 10-Oct-14 17:47:42)

fluorescent lighting stay off all night. And now got this:

Since Link time = 9 hours 19 min 1 sec
FEC: 0 60
CRC: 2 1
ES: 2 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

much better now.

I am gradually getting rid of those horrible flourescent (including CFL) lights and replacing with LEDs, the prices are really coming down now and they are so much brighter, cheaper to run and longer-lasting.

In reply to a post by kasg:

I am gradually getting rid of those horrible flourescent (including CFL) lights and replacing with LEDs, the prices are really coming down now and they are so much brighter, cheaper to run and longer-lasting.

Problem is my house is belong to council, so I think it not allow to replaced with LED lighting. I shall ask council.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Problem is my house is belong to council, so I think it not allow to replaced with LED lighting. I shall ask council.

Who changes the bulbs in your house?

I can change bulbs myself in every room. But kitchen fluorescent lighting cannot be replaced in a single led bulb. Because it a long tubing light.

Councils are normally happy in allowing it to be changed over from fluorescent tube lights to LED ones to reduce the energy footprint, sadly in some cases you may have to wait a while for them to contract out the work to change the entire fitting, its not just changing of the tubes, it also needs re-wiring as well.

The BC bulb types can be replaced easily, however the fluorescent tube light which you can have in the kitchen needs a complete new light and fixing fitted.

Edited by PaulKirby (Fri 10-Oct-14 11:43:14)

You can get LED tubes that are a direct replacement for fluorescent tubes.

In reply to a post by kasg:

You can get LED tubes that are a direct replacement for fluorescent tubes.

Oh, the last time I checked it required new fittings and transformer.

Just be careful with your LEDs - some of the cheap ones can cause other interference. I had some that seriously effected my FM reception.

You may be able to use some other form of light temporarily, so that the Fluorescent Tube doesn't have to be used, until it is properly replaced.

Also take a good look at your kitchen, you may find that you want lights in different places.

In reply to a post by billford:

When you turn a fluorescent light on, the starter and choke combine to generate a high voltage (several kV) spike to "strike" the tube. This is what will be causing the errors and, along with a high current initially supplied to the cathode heaters, is what causes eventual failure of the tube and/or starter.

Sadly, good linear fluorescents are still one of the most efficient way of generating light - more efficient than "energy saving" CFLs, and on a par with LEDs. On the other hand, the old wire-wound ballast and starter should have been sent to the scrap heap years ago. Electronic control units are (in my opinon) much better, more efficient, produce less RF hash and extend the life of the tube by preventing cathode sputtering.

None of this helps with the original problem though!

Morning Kasg

What surprised me with CFLs and their green credentials, is that if you open up the (bulky) base, you'll find about two dozen components, eg coils, capacitors, resistors, semin-conductors etc, so the manufacturing costs must be relatively high, also including the oil-to-plastic bulky base; thus I guestimate that even with a deliberate effort, at most about 25% would be recyclable, where-as for the "traditional" incandescent lamp, it is probably around 75% - acknowledging in both cases that collection in to the bulk quantities needed for recycling would also be expensive.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by kasg:

You can get LED tubes that are a direct replacement for fluorescent tubes.

Oh, the last time I checked it required new fittings and transformer.

Not any more...
http://www.ledbulbs.co.uk/LED+Tubes+%26+Striplights

WoW, it will cost me £100 for one tube LOL.
I may stay with what I have now, have 12 new spare tubes.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

WoW, it will cost me £100 for one tube LOL.
I may stay with what I have now, have 12 new spare tubes.

I'm sure some people would happily pay that to keep the dreaded DLM away on their FTTC line Each to their own...

Edited by deleted (Fri 10-Oct-14 12:32:20)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by kasg:

You can get LED tubes that are a direct replacement for fluorescent tubes.

Oh, the last time I checked it required new fittings and transformer.

Not any more...
http://www.ledbulbs.co.uk/LED+Tubes+%26+Striplights

Oh yes they do.

The Aurora LED tubes with a G5 base require a 24v constant voltage driver and are NOT suitable for connection to a conventional ballast.


and T8s require the fitting to be completely modified.

Edited by MHC (Fri 10-Oct-14 12:34:56)

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

Oh, the last time I checked it required new fittings and transformer.

Not any more...
http://www.ledbulbs.co.uk/LED+Tubes+%26+Striplights

Oh yes they do.

The Aurora LED tubes with a G5 base require a 24v constant voltage driver and are NOT suitable for connection to a coventional ballast.

I stand corrected

That's what I thought.

In reply to a post by GrahamM242:

In reply to a post by billford:

When you turn a fluorescent light on, the starter and choke combine to generate a high voltage (several kV) spike to "strike" the tube. This is what will be causing the errors and, along with a high current initially supplied to the cathode heaters, is what causes eventual failure of the tube and/or starter.

Sadly, good linear fluorescents are still one of the most efficient way of generating light - more efficient than "energy saving" CFLs, and on a par with LEDs. On the other hand, the old wire-wound ballast and starter should have been sent to the scrap heap years ago. Electronic control units are (in my opinon) much better, more efficient, produce less RF hash and extend the life of the tube by preventing cathode sputtering.

None of this helps with the original problem though!

Electronic ballast are certainly better and more efficient from the lighting perspective, however a badly or cheaply designed/built one will still create a lot of noise.

But its good to know though, I might buy the complete unit as a whole for my shack )

T5 needing a driver: http://gb.auroralighting.com/Products/Lamps/LED-Tube... and states: Replacement for conventional T5 fluorescent tubes with G5 base. 24V DC Constant Voltage LED driver required. Must not be used with high frequency T5 fluorescent ballasts.


T8 - with 100-260 supply: http://assets1.auroralighting.com/web/sku/14354/gene...

Yeah I think that's the one I saw a while back where you had to also replace the starter with one that is shorted out along with changing other stuff, was a while back so I may of got something wrong LOL.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Morning Kasg

What surprised me with CFLs and their green credentials, is that if you open up the (bulky) base, you'll find about two dozen components, eg coils, capacitors, resistors, semin-conductors etc, so the manufacturing costs must be relatively high, also including the oil-to-plastic bulky base; thus I guestimate that even with a deliberate effort, at most about 25% would be recyclable, where-as for the "traditional" incandescent lamp, it is probably around 75% - acknowledging in both cases that collection in to the bulk quantities needed for recycling would also be expensive.

CFL's are nowhere near as green as many think.
They are not as green to produce as TF bulbs.
They are not as green to dispose of as TF bulbs.
And consider this, the main 'wastage' of a TF bulb is said to be the heat produced, in summer fair enough, but at other times of years this contributes to the general background heat in a building, so very little is actualy wasted in the average house.

Afternoon Burble

Yes, I agree that incidental heat from various items such as TVs on standby etc, does add to the general background heating of buildings; and is effectively taken account of where the main heating is thermostatically controlled.

Thus as you say, very little if any is wasted, particularly the further north that one lives.

I have concentrated on insulation and draughts to reduce the main obvious heat loss aspects; and comparing the Average Energy Bill for the UK, which must be "concentrated" on South-East England, our Bill is slightly less than 10% higher, in an all-electric house, "no fines" walls, exposed end wall to prevailing South-Westerly wind (over 1 KM of open ground for the wind to gallop across; and significantly exposed in the North quadrant) and decidedly north of the above average, being in the Kingdom of Fife.

Three Bedrooms, Two Public Rooms, One Kitchen, Two Toilets etc.

As it is an "Average Energy Bill for the UK", it must include much gas consumption - which is generally cheaper on a KWH basis.

And also doing a lot of extra laundry for family!.(My lady-wife's prerogative.)

Replace the starter with an electronic one and you don't get the voltage spikes.

In reply to a post by simon194:

Replace the starter with an electronic one and you don't get the voltage spikes.

Yes you do, it's the only (practical) way to ionise the mercury vapour in the lamp to get it started.

But it will probably be "cleaner" from the RF interference point of view and if the tube doesn't strike first time you won't get repeated spikes- the electronic ones only try once.

I wonder how "green" LED bulbs are by comparison.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

WoW, it will cost me £100 for one tube LOL.

Do you really have a 57-inch tube in your kitchen?

Actually, electronic ones use high-frequency to start the tubes, like the cold-cathode effect. The gas is heated by heating elements at the ends.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Oh yes they do.

The Aurora LED tubes with a G5 base require a 24v constant voltage driver and are NOT suitable for connection to a conventional ballast.


and T8s require the fitting to be completely modified.

Not true! I replaced my flourescent two weeks ago with this. Only alteration was to replace the standard starter with a shorted starter. (Provided in the price)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Actually, electronic ones use high-frequency to start the tubes, like the cold-cathode effect. The gas is heated by heating elements at the ends.

The full electronic kits do, yes, but not the electronic starters that simply replace the glow-type and still retain the choke/ballast.

In reference to www.tabelek.co.uk/product-um2-multipulse-electronic-fluorescent-tub...:

The patented Soft Start LEL Multipulse system produces timed heating followed by high energy, high voltage ignition to give very reliable starting even under conditions of low temperatures.

They simply replace the (somewhat erratic) bimetal switch in a glow starter with a better controlled electronic one.

The "heating elements" at the ends of the tube are oxide-coated cathodes and need heating to produce electrons, they don't heat any significant fraction of the gas.

RF noise is possible from LED driver units, so they are not an automatic improvement.

Evening Kasg

Found this and it seems a reasonable comparison chart; but with "Durability", I think it should have also covered "Hazard".

http://www.designrecycleinc.com/led%20comp%20chart.html

Taking the "broken glass" case, whilst the Tungsten Incandescent Bulb glass can break and frequently breaks, it normally does not present a hazard beyond cuts - and yes, these may be serious in some cases.

My experience of CFLs is that generally the glass tubing is more and surprisingly robust.

If it does break, then any resulting cuts have to be treated much more seriously, due to the Mercury and/or the Rare Earth compounds coating the inner wall, just like conventional Fluorescent Tubes.

There disposal whether broken or not, is thus a much more serious consideration.

I can't comment on the LEDs, having little experience of them in this regard.

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I once broke about ten Fluorescent Tubes, tripping over one as I tried to enter a lift/elevator.

Fortunately, I stayed outside, whilst about 90% of the fragments were trapped inside, by the closing doors of the lift.

Many years later, I saw such tubes being broken (deliberately) against bright sunshine, which showed the myriad of shards, powder etc that arises in a surprisingly large "cloud".

Fortunately there was a double-glazed window between me and them - but not the persons doing the breaking.

Keep well clear.