Fibre and the Sure Signal Device

Before posting here I carried out a search on entries about the Sure Signal device and found entries on many TB forums, so its not obvious which one to use on this topic. However my issue is fibre specific so it appears here although my first port of call was to the Vodafone forums but I have exhausted any expertise lurking there.

The issue is simple, but with complex overtures, in so much as you can have Sure Signal working fine but an upgrade to FTTC and you sleepwalk into problems that you never knew existed. To be told by Vodafone that the Sure Signal device was only designed for ADSL and won't work with FTTC was a bit of a shock as there is no signal from any mobile provider to serve our premises.

However people with greater technical expertise than me HAVE got the Sure Signal device working with FTTC but trying to discover exactly how is proving very difficult or misleading. To get the Sure Signal device working again, I am prepared swap out the router for another but one thing that is unchangeable is the FTTC service from TalkTalk Business.

Currently our hardware is a Draytek 2820vN and a MK2 Sure Signal Device. If anyone is prepared to jump in with assistance on this matter, it would be very welcomed because at the moment the only solution seems to be installing a second telephone line with ADSL broadband which would not be a welcome expenditure each month.

An alternative approach would be a one off cost for a Draytek 2860vN router which appears to be configurable to support the Sure Signal Device. Why Draytek? Well we need the VoIP functionality and access for remote users. All of which we had with an ADSL service!

So do we have a knight in shinning armour out there that can come to our rescue. I do hope so.

All my sure signal devices work with BT Infinity so Vodafone are clearly mistaken. No port forwarding required, they're just plug and play.

What seems to be the problem?

Lots of misinformation around, it's essentially a tunnelled VPN from the SureSignal and some routers mess that up or block it.

The Dlink router (ADSL but it's an IP level issue) I have on a line from T-T requires the firewall to be disabled for the SureSignal to work, no amount of rules and port forwarding made it work otherwise. Turn the FW off and off it goes. I have another router behind the Dlink doing the security.

My sure signal works fine with idnet and openreach modem and asus rt-n66u router

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Turned wi-fi off on iPhone and this shows maximum speed for the model of sure signal I have.

OP, i'm also on TalkTalk Business Fibre and have the Sure Signal v3 (plug in type) working without any problems. So the issue is likely to be your router or a faulty SS unit. I'm using the Asus RT-AC87 router.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Lots of misinformation around, it's essentially a tunnelled VPN from the SureSignal and some routers mess that up or block it.

Nail on the head. From experience most routers work fine with the Sure Signal on FTTC but i've had the odd one which gives me connection problems with the SS.

Thanks for your responses guys where:
BatBoy says:
All my sure signal devices work with BT Infinity so Vodafone are clearly mistaken. No port forwarding required, they're just plug and play.

yarwell says: .
Lots of misinformation around, it's essentially a tunnelled VPN from the SureSignal and some routers mess that up or block it.

MrSaffron says:
My sure signal works fine with idnet and openreach modem and asus rt-n66u router.

-----------

OK let's think about all this for a minute.

To yarwell I would say all too true. I would almost put the Draytek 2820 in that category except an end user has reported that he has got his 2820 to play ball with VSS [Sure signal device] but getting his configuration details hasn't happened yet.

To BatBoy I would say that Vodafone acknowledges that BT Infinity with a Home Hub will work with "Clamping" set correctly but that feature seems to be exclusive to the Home Hubs.

To MrSaffron I would say this is great to know and very tempted to immediately order an asus rt-n66u router. It stuffs me with the VoIP functionality without additional hardware but to be honest with you getting VSS is more of a priority. The question there is would be OK with TTB and can you have remote access with that router?

If I could be sure that the Draytek 2860vN or something else from their range of routers with the vN functionality can be made to work, that would be my preferred manufacturer especially if the 2820vn could be retained.

On the VSS, what actually should be performed when you need to reset the VSS? Various options are given with no clear indication of what each does.

Currently in the 2820's Firewall section, I have the Default Call Filter, and Default Data Filter enabled. DoS defense is disabled. There are no Port Redirection entries. The Open Ports configuration page does have entries for 8, 50, 123, 500, 4500 and 1723. When using VSS successfully on ADSL, the setting for MTU was 1400 but it has been suggested to use 1492 [the maximum that the router supports] or even 1454. I'm inclined to revert to 1400. Any thoughts on that?

With the FTTC going live on 15/10/14, I don't really want the Router going up and down like a yo-yo to test various options.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

OP, i'm also on TalkTalk Business Fibre and have the Sure Signal v3 (plug in type) working without any problems. So the issue is likely to be your router or a faulty SS unit. I'm using the Asus RT-AC87 router.

Good to hear from you as well as your entry indicates that TTB Fibre is OK when using VSS.

I don't see that my MK2 VSS can be faulty as it was working fine until upgraded to FTTC but I have reset the unit many times since then and may have done this incorrectly. Any suggestions of how to get back to square one on that one please?

Now you have place me in a dilemma; do I rush out and get a MK3 VSS or get an Asus RT-AC87 router? Option 1 looks good , as it retains other features of the router, but then what about configuration requirements for VSS in the Draytek 2820vn to match? Your thoughts on this please.

I had a SS v2 many moons ago and if i remember correctly this is how you reset it:

1) Using a pin/needle push the reset button and after a few sec disconnect power to the SS - keep the reset button pushed in.

2) Wait for for 30 sec, reconnect power - keep the the reset button pushed in.

3) Wait for 15 sec, let go off reset button and it may take anything up to 24 hrs for the unit to sync - but its usually within the hour.

If this doesn't cure your problem, give VF a call and ask them to reset it from their end and then reset it again from your end.

If still no luck, pop into your local VF shop and buy a SS v3 unit. If it works, great you can bin your v2 unit but if the same problem continues return it to the store for a full refund - just say its not working (store staff are usually very good with returns) - DO NOT under any circumstances buy it from the online store as its a big hassle to return it.

Let us know how you get on. Good luck!

Edit: I should also add that the MTU is set to 1492 on my router so it might be a good idea to use this.

Edited by deleted (Sat 18-Oct-14 14:06:41)

No port clamping required here. It just works. The factory reset often fixes things and make sure you're using a real cat5 cable.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

No port clamping required here. It just works. The factory reset often fixes things and make sure you're using a real cat5 cable.

I was coming round to thinking of changing the supplied 'toy' Ethernet cable only today; I will certainly do that whilst I am on the case of getting the dam thing working in my environment. I can see that it should be possible, just haven't cracked it yet.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

OP, i'm also on TalkTalk Business Fibre and have the Sure Signal v3 (plug in type) working without any problems. So the issue is likely to be your router or a faulty SS unit. I'm using the Asus RT-AC87 router.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Lots of misinformation around, it's essentially a tunnelled VPN from the SureSignal and some routers mess that up or block it.

Nail on the head. From experience most routers work fine with the Sure Signal on FTTC but i've had the odd one which gives me connection problems with the SS.

I have read through probably all the forum entries going back some six years found within the thinkbroadband and Vodafone forums concerning the Sure Signal Device working with FTTC. As a general rule of thumb it seems that routers that don't need the Openreach modem seem to get the Sure Signal device to spring into life.

It is true that with regard to my current router, the Draytek 2820vN, success appears to hinge on daisy chaining with another router to serve the VSS only but there is not enough information available of exactly what to do for my liking.

So the bottom line is for me to get a new router that doesn't need the Openreach modem. I haven't brought into service the supplied TTB router to see if I am on winner there, but something for "free" often leads to disappointment in not being all that feature rich and in particular a poor wireless signal range.

Those that did ditch their 2820, moved up to the 2850 but that was 5 years ago and there may be better choices that I should make today. It would therefore be appreciated if any TalkTalk Business customers on FTTC who have got any version of Sure Signal to work to kindly say which router they are using and if there were any configuration requirements to achieve success.

If I have to forego VoIP and unattended remote access to my computer, so be it. Having a working Sure Signal Device is much more important.

In appreciation of any replies received.

Have you unlocked the OR modem (HG612 if that's what you have)? Maybe you could turn off whatever causes the problem.

Have you reset your SS yet? Did you change MTU to 1492 on router? Any luck? Try out a V3 SS from the VF shop as i suggested.

It shouldn't make any difference whether you use an all-in-one router or separate FTTC modem + router, thje SS should work with any combo flawlessly. There were issues with the Sure Signal when FTTC first came out but VF have largely ironed these out.

My current setup on TalkTalk Business:

ECI Modem > Asus RT-AC87R router

Running with Openreach ECI modem and Asus router with no issues, in fact it never crossed my mind that there might be issues as just worked on the day I switched from ADSL2+ to FTTC.

Loads of routers with support for remote access/VPN solutions as end points. The Asus range do and with the variety of firmware versions DDWRT etc you can exploit fairly powerful small computers that they are.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Have you reset your SS yet? Did you change MTU to 1492 on router? Any luck? Try out a V3 SS from the VF shop as i suggested.

It shouldn't make any difference whether you use an all-in-one router or separate FTTC modem + router, thje SS should work with any combo flawlessly. There were issues with the Sure Signal when FTTC first came out but VF have largely ironed these out.

My current setup on TalkTalk Business:

ECI Modem > Asus RT-AC87R router

* Reset instructions for the VSS carried out to the letter.
* An MTU of 1492 is the highest value that can be used with the Draytek 2820, have tried 1400, 1454, 1480 and 1492 without any success.
* A runner is currently off to get a MK3 this morning; hasn't returned yet.
* It is an ECI Modem which isn't exactly that easy to hack into. Not been there to try.
* Nobody, except MSaffon, has popped up to say that with an Openreach modem as part of the setup they have got VSS to work unless daisy chained with another router. I can see how different sub-nets can be setup with a 2830, but not with a 2820. In any case daisy chaining introduces an additional diagnostic nightmare when things go wrong.

A major plank leading to success is the MTU value used and whether the DF flag is disabled on some routers and clamping enabled on others but it is now my belief that I won't get anywhere using a 2820; a more up-to-date router is a must.

Many all-in-routers are known to work with VSS, often without any configuration requirements in the router, baby_frogmella has achieved success and I would like to replicate what he has done. At the same time MrSaffron does have an Openreach modem in use and VSS works for him. I note that both use an Asus router. Great, so which one from that manufacturer should I buy and where from please?

Am running the Asus RT-N66U running Merlin firmware. MTU left at default of 1492 Using the non-standard firmware gives you options like turning off the LED's, handy for those with router in bedroom etc Plus it also works with IPv6.

Have not played with the VPN server side or the options to operate as a private cloud storage device much.

RT-N66U in white for £90.53

or

RT-N66U in black for £99

There are various AC versions which have faster wireless, which personally is probably only useful if you have gone to the time of setting up a massive HD movie repository.

On the ECI hacking, have one with lid off on the desk and clothes peg for a UART and did get talking to it, but all the guides contradicted each other and never got it going. Keeping that ECI has a spare if lightning kills the openreach.

No guarantees are given, as I am using IDNet and TalkTalk might behave differently.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Great, so which one from that manufacturer should I buy and where from please?

If you don't have any success with the SS v3, then its fair to say its your router causing the issue. Go for an Asus RT-AC87R as its arguably the best router out there currently....you will even get a boost on older a/b/g/n wifi clients (within their spec of course). This beast is amazing for wifi, you won't be disappointed
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/17652-asus-...

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Great, so which one from that manufacturer should I buy and where from please?

If you don't have any success with the SS v3, then its fair to say its your router causing the issue. Go for an Asus RT-AC87R as its arguably the best router out there currently....you will even get a boost on older a/b/g/n wifi clients (within their spec of course). This beast is amazing for wifi, you won't be disappointed
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/17652-asus-...

Update: There simply was no stock of the MK3 Sure Signal at any of the Vodafone stores within a 15 mile radius of Farnham, Surrey.

So the TTB supplied router was pressed into service. Hey presto! Within 20 minutes the VSS sprung into life with the pleasure of being able to make and receive mobile phone calls. Trouble was it was a maze of wires of incorrect lengths all over the desk and therefore both the router and VSS had to be turned off to tidy everything up.

With that task completed, the router was powered up and once we had a bank of green lights, checked to make sure there was an internet service on the PC. Yep that was fine. Next fired up the VSS, but sadly as we left the office the MK2 VSS was still displaying flashing white lights and a steady red light for power.

Hoping that when we return in the morning, the unit will be offering a service. For the record the OR modem is no longer used as the TTB modem/router plugs directly into the master socket.

Switching modems dramatically increased connection speeds and are currently double those predicted at the time of asking for the FTTC upgrade . See http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

No configuration of the router for the VSS device was made but it looks as though it might be sensible to bind the MAC to the IP address. Of course VoIP and remote access is no longer available but I am sure that will be possible with an ATA and port forwarding.

Frustratingly Vodafone still can't grasp the difference between ADSL and FTTC and continue to give advice that is applicable only to ADSL and more specifically for BTs Home Hub routers.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

. Of course VoIP and remote access is no longer available but I am sure that will be possible with an ATA and port forwarding.

You should be able to get VoIP working via the DrayTek much as before.

Either connect the 2820Vn via one of its LAN ports (with its DHCP switched off) to a LAN port on the first router, or probably better - connect via the DrayTeks WAN2 port to your LAN.

You'll then need to look at the SIP Accounts section of the DrayTek and for each configured account change the 'Register via' setting appropriately. 'Auto' may work fine, or you may be better selecting 'WAN2' or 'LAN/VPN' according to how you decide to connect to your other router.

If the main router has a SIP ALG it might be worth finding out how to turn it off and doing so.

Yes it does. Even found SIP ALG on the TTB modern/router and turned that off.

It's the status of the VSS in the morning that is either going to be a pleasure to see it working or a big groan and reaching for the frustration pills!

At least we do know that the current setup WILL work.

If the SS is still a problem in the morning, a factory reset will sort it.

I mentioned the SIP ALG in the context of getting your VoIP working reliably via the DrayTek, I've no idea how the VSS works and whether the SIP ALG would affect it.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

If the SS is still a problem in the morning, a factory reset will sort it.

At 08:50 this morning only a solid red power light was showing. So I carried out the following sequence on the VSS:
1. Held in the reset button until all lights went solid.
2. Pulled the power lead out with the reset button still pushed in.
3. Continued to hold down the reset button and reconnect the power lead.
4. Waited for all lights to come on and then release the reset button.
The end result was two flashing white lights for quite a while but now at 09:25 we are back to just a solid red light. Not sure if I should hang onto a wing and a prayer that a service will eventually come up or carry out another reset; maybe I should have had the LAN cable removed during the reset process? Or perhaps reboot the router?

So frustrating that we had initial success using the TTB modem/router but tiding up the wiring resulting in a power down of both the router and VSS has left us in limbo. Yep Internet is working just fine with yesterday's fast speeds maintained.

Any thoughts on a plan of action for me please?

In response to Rastus, we are currently not daisy chaining to the 2820 nor has the ALG be turned off. We know that your suggestion will work because that is exactly what we do on another site. So this mornings issues can't be laid at that door.

SIP ALG are unlikely to affect VSS.

Why? Because the suresignal is using a VPN connection to tunnel the voice and data traffic, which means routers don't see any VoIP in the form of SIP protocol.

My conclusion, after struggling to get the VSS to work over a community wireless network, is to give up and switch to a different mobile phone service. Part of the problem is that Vodafone technical support appears to have, at best, a limited understanding of their own hardware. From what I have been able to work out there seem to be two separate issues.

First, the VSS seems to use a non-standard version of an IPSec tunnel which runs into problems with many firewalls. The usual instructions tell you to open various ports and protocols (though they don't know the difference between the two!). But even doing that may not work. Trying to change the MTU is dangerous because this can break other parts of the network. This may be the reason why VF claims that the VSS won't work with PPPoE though it does work with PPPoA.

Second, the VF back-office system for the VSS seems to be poorly designed and overloaded, so that establishing the tunnel is often difficult and it may be unreliable. The whole thing seems to be a software/hardware bodge of the worst kind.

The signal extenders offered by 3 and O2 seem to be better designed and supported, though they have to be pushed to give them out. It is, to put it mildly, rather surprising that a mobile phone company should be so incompetent in supporting a basic piece of networking equipment.

Sorry for all the "seems". It is impossible to obtain anything other than the most basic technical information out of VF (or the other operators) and, as you have discovered, this is often wrong. Hence, anyone seeking a solution has to rely on inference rather a clear specification.

Are you saying the SS worked with the TBB supplied router and then when your rebooted the same router it no longer works? Might be a good idea starting from scratch:

1) De-register your SS from on the VF website
2) Wait 30 mins and re-register but use a different postcode ( from experience postcode change can make a difference)
3) If still no luck, give VF a call and ask to reset the SS from their end.

To be fair to VF the Sure Signal is largely a plug in and forget about device. It just works and you shouldn't really have to faff about with your router settings as the vast majority of routers have 'IPSec' enabled by default. The only time there was a major issue with the SS units was when VF made a botched up attempt to upgrade the fw (remotely) a year or two ago.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Are you saying the SS worked with the TBB supplied router and then when your rebooted the same router it no longer works? Might be a good idea starting from scratch:

1) De-register your SS from on the VF website
2) Wait 30 mins and re-register but use a different postcode ( from experience postcode change can make a difference)
3) If still no luck, give VF a call and ask to reset the SS from their end.

Update: Well for 24 hours now the Sure Signal Device is working as it should. I have no idea what actually made the unit to spring into life but steps 1 and 2 above were carried including:
* Giving the Sure Signal Device a fixed IP using binding.
* Rebooting the Sure Signal Device.
* Giving up on using the Draytek Router.
* Using the TalkTalk modem/router with my own choice of IP Range.
* No longer using the Openreach modem.
* No attempt made to open ports or entering port forwarding rules.

What appears to be the key to success is the use of Universal Plug and Play within the router to set up everything correctly. Within the router it is possible to disable UPnP and perhaps I should after reading this web page: https://www.grc.com/unpnp/unpnp.htm.

I suppose it was no surprise that getting ANY meaningful help from either Vodafone or TalkTalk with regards to the Sure Signal device was simply not there. So I am therefore very grateful to the help and assistance given on this forum. Well done everyone,

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

What appears to be the key to success is the use of Universal Plug and Play within the router to set up everything correctly. Within the router it is possible to disable UPnP and perhaps I should after reading this web page: https://www.grc.com/unpnp/unpnp.htm.

Your link has a superfluous '.' at the end which prevents it working

Corrected link

I don't use upnp and my sure signal boxes work with my HH5 - no ports are assigned to them. However, I have assigned static IP addresses to them.
I feel I get excellent help from Vodafone's Egyptian support centre.

Edited by deleted (Wed 22-Oct-14 17:16:03)